Just a note from 2 of my white van cycling mates who cannot turn up today as they were celebrating Johnson's potential return!
Lemmings.
They were too young to remember Winston Churchill
Eh?
Churchill left off in 1955 which was 67 years ago. Anyone younger than 89 wouldn't have been old enough to to vote for churchill in 1951.
It's like someone saying I'm too young to remember Harold Wilson- I'm not , but i was far more interested in farleys rusks at the time.
If we have in listening mode early doors on the Boris lingo bingo card it has to be a red flag for same old same old. Boris Johnson the wilderness weeks and how it changed him would be another.
Churchill left off in 1955 which was 67 years ago. Anyone younger than 89 wouldn’t have been old enough to to vote for churchill in 1951.
It’s like someone saying I’m too young to remember Harold Wilson- I’m not , but i was far more interested in farleys rusks at the time.
And yet, my father for example is 84, too young to have voted for Churchill. But, he remembers the war, is a huge admirer of what Churchill did in the war. Churchill did not die until 1965, my father was 27 - to suggest his memories of Churchill is due to “the feel good propaganda films of the 50’s and 60’s like The Dambusters and Battle of Britain.” is silly (at best).
Also, I have no idea how old you are, but whilst being too young to have voted for Wilson, I was an admirer of his back then. I’d happily swap him for Starmer.
Can someone explain to me how Johnson has been on holiday for 2 months?
There was a 3 line whip the other night, how come he didn't have attend?
Does he get some special leave after losing the leadership? Was he told to take step down by the whips or something?
I reckon the whips/party chairman told him to piss off for a bit while Truss got bedded in, to stop him stirring it, and presumably some donor footed the bill.
Bloody hell!
Some absolute nutter on LBC right now. Johnson is going to save the country, it's the 2nd coming.
whilst being too young to have voted for Wilson, I was an admirer of his back then. I’d happily swap him for Starmer.
Well said! Wilson wasn't particularly left-wing as prime minister but what he achieved in such a short time and with such tiny parliamentary majorities is frankly staggering.
I occasionally hear people claim that Tony Blair is according to them the greatest Labour PM ever. Presumably that is solely down to electoral success because when Wilson's record as PM is compared to Blair's 10 year premiership, with eye-watering majorities, it appears even more remarkable.
All that possibility resulted in very little. Blair's most famous legacy is probably committing the UK to wars. Apart from all the huge reforms Wilson was responsible for he also thankfully resisted US pressure to involve Britian in the Vietnam War.
Some absolute nutter on LBC right now. Johnson is going to save the country, it’s the 2nd coming.
Was it Loadsamoney?
[ need to watch the Saturday Night Live special from last night ]
But, he remembers the war, is a huge admirer of what Churchill did in the war.
So was my dad. He walked with Churchill's coffin as a member of the Queen's Colour Squadron at his state funeral. He never got to see Johnson become PM, but I can assure you my mother sees absolutely **** all of Churchill in Johnson, and no one else should be dumb enough for fall for that nonsense either. Johnson is no Churchill.
whilst being too young to have voted for Wilson, I was an admirer of his back then. I’d happily swap him for Starmer.
Wilson? He's dead. Perhaps deal with what we have in front of us now. Seems an easy choice to me.
I occasionally hear people claim that Tony Blair is according to them the greatest Labour PM ever.
That must be very occasionally. And we've only had two in my memory.. Anyway, he's not going to be PM again. Perhaps deal with what we have in front of us now. Seems an easy choice to me.
Btw it’s interesting to note that you are on first name terms with Johnson. Are you sure that you are not a secret admirer/Tory
My mate Al, good fun for a pint down the club,although never gets a round in but not so good for running a country 🙂
So either every covid death in the UK is down to Johnson’s incompetence, ie there would not have been one single covid death if someone else had been PM.
Google disagrees.
Pro rated for population size, New Zealand managed less than the third significant figure of what Boris achieved.
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Btw it’s interesting to note that you are on first name terms with Johnson. Are you sure that you are not a secret admirer/Tory?😉
Ohh that's low.
Google disagrees.
So you want to use 'google' figures rather than the World Health Organisation's figures?
Okay we can do that WHO's figure was 192,682. Your google figure claims 208,000.
You said:
Boris’ incompetence killed 200,000.
So according to you if the Tories had had another more competent PM, despite the fact that many senior Tories including members of his own cabinet were more concerned with costs and loss of profit than Johnson, there would only have been 8,000 deaths from covid in the UK, 200,000 died from Johnson's incompetence.
Is it really feasible to claim that only 8k would have died from covid in the UK had another Tory been in charge?
And you have ignored my question when I asked you how many do you think died as a result of austerity in reference to your "I’ll take austerity" claim.
What do you think of Glasgow University's claim of 300,000 extra deaths as a result of austerity?
Ohh that’s low.
You careless forgot to remove my winky when you copied and pasted my comment, it kinda undermines your outrage 😉
So much energy wasted defending Johnson with pedantry. Why? What has he "delivered" for you?
As we’re reminiscing about Churchill, my Nan remembered his time as Home Secretary well, despite being a little girl. She witnessed the soldiers he sent to wish the Tonypandy riots
And yet, my father for example is 84, too young to have voted for Churchill. But, he remembers the war, is a huge admirer of what Churchill did in the war.
Seven years old in 1945? When Atlee won the election for labour, first chance people got to vote for a pm after the war. And Churchill campaigned on 'the fight starts now'.
(Churchill's popularity has become somewhat exaggerated.)
Tune!
The “blame” lyrics are great.
Blaming everyone in the hospitals
Blaming everyone at the bottom of the English Channel
Blaming everyone who doesn’t look like a fried animal
Didn’t know there was new Orbital coming… thanks.
So much energy wasted defending Johnson with pedantry. Why? What has he “delivered” for you?
Oh the intellectually lazy, how they struggle with anything beyond black or white.
Claiming that Truss is a worse prime minister than Johnson was (a claim millions would agree with) isn't "defending" Johnson, it is pointing out that another PM else is worse.
Expressing an opinion that leading leadership contenders Sunak and Truss would not have handled the pandemic any better, in fact imo almost certainly a lot worse, is not "defending" Johnson, it is criticising Sunak and Truss for being worse.
I do not for a moment doubt that if Gordon Brown had been prime minister, for example, he would have handled the pandemic far far better than Johnson. If I haven't mentioned it earlier it is because there is no point, not because I don't think someone else could have done a better job.
My opinion of the Tory Party is extremely low, my opinion of Johnson is also extremely low, as I repeatedly attack his narcissistic personality. However it is precisely this showman need to be loved which imo makes him more tolerable than many of the 8 recent contenders for his job. It was clear from the start that Truss had no interest in being popular or being liked, she simply didn't care.
If you feel that the Tory Party has plenty of alternatives to Johnson who are more competent and caring and less right-wing than Johnson then that's up to you, but I don't agree. For me Johnson has easily been preferable to Thatcher, Major, and Cameron, three very right-wing and callous Tory prime ministers who had a highly detrimental effect on the UK as they dismantled the postwar social democratic consensus.
Johnson imo is the best Tory PM since Ted Heath, but nowhere near as acceptable as Heath and even more so Macmillan. I appreciate that many feel that Thatcher, Major, and Cameron, were better, I don't agree.
And btw there is nothing 'pedantic' about pointing out the Cameron era austerity deaths when someone says "I'll take austerity", nor what the total covid deaths actually are.
Oh the intellectually lazy, how they struggle with anything beyond black or white.
You put so much effort into defending Johnson. Have been doing so endlessly on this forum for the last three years, no matter how low he sinks. No point denying it. But why? Why can he depend on you standing up for him no matter what he does? What has he done for you?
FFS change the record.
That’s what I’m asking of you. Or if you can’t change the record, explain why you have kept playing it, even after all we’ve seen of Johnson since he became leader the first time. Why expend so much time and effort on this forum defending him?
Can someone explain to me how Johnson has been on holiday for 2 months?
There was a 3 line whip the other night, how come he didn’t have attend?
Does he get some special leave after losing the leadership? Was he told to take step down by the whips or something?
Someone was explainig that on LBC the other day, basically the party will choose a constituency for them to run in, preferably fairly local to them and an easy win purely on the basis of them being groomed for PM. So no real constituency work done, basically a name on a bit of paper to say that they're the MP.
I have to question why they would allow a serial rule breaker, a PM who lied to the Queen, a constant embarrasment and someone who is still under investigation by the Common Privelages Committee for misleading parliament the chance to be PM again? I get that the old dears and racist conservative base like him, but do they really think he can win a General Election again?
Apparently he has 100 votes
being reported that he has >100 backers now (albeit only 49 declared) so can be on the paper on Monday if he chooses to. The fact he's flown back to the UK makes me think he's considering it seriously.
Could be very bad and very good. If he stands and makes the top 2 then the pensioner members will vote him back in, almost certain.
But I can't see how the PCP can unite behind him. 60-odd ministers resigned, countless others wrote letters to 1922, reversing that is surely beyond reasonable..... it would surely split the party and make a GE more likely as they fail to do any business as the infighting goes on.
explain why you have kept playing it, even after all we’ve seen of Johnson since he became leader the first time.
You don't think things have got worse since Johnson resigned, are you for real? Well I saw the other day that you posted, quote, "the polls are broken" so I guess that you might be struggling with the reality of the situation.
A reality which was totally predictable. Long before Johnson resigned I said on here any alternative to Johnson was likely to be even more right-wing and callous than he is. It really wasn't hard to predict, even without a crystal ball.
So anyway how about you explain your bizarre faith in the Tory Party which leads you to believe that any Tory other Johnson is better?
You celebrated when Johnson was forced resign despite the fact that it could only mean that he would be replaced by another Tory. How about you explain how that panned out?
You spend so much time and effort attacking Johnson claiming that another Tory prime minister would be so much better how about you explain what you think is so great about these other Tories.
The next PM will probably be Rishi Sunak, I expect his policies as PM to be significantly to the right of Johnson. His austerity programme might well please the markets but will cause untold human misery to millions struggling during an unprecedented cost of living and healthcare crises, the markets simply don't care.
How about you explain why this will represent a significant improvement on Johnson's premiership? What, according to you, is so great about Rishi Sunak?
The only way the Tories can guarantee the ability to resist an early general election is if Johnson is reinstalled as PM, a point made by Ben Wallace the other day when he talked of leaning towards Johnson because he had a mandate.
I cannot see how the Tories can have 3 prime ministers with 3 different sets of economic policies during the duration of one parliament without being forced, if only by public opinion, to go to the country and seek a mandate.
For that reason only I am leaning towards hoping that Sunak or Mordaunt become the next PM, not Johnson.
I do hope the Tories apply their customary competence to making their voting site Ddos resistant.
If johnson decides to stand and is voted in that, to me, means he will either kill the Privileges Committee enquiry through the whips' office or believes he will be cleared.
Either of those options is risky for him.
My thinking FWIW - there will not be a sunak-johnson 'dream ticket'; johnson will decide there is too much potential downside for him to stand; talk of him having secured 100+ backers is nothing more than talk designed to engineer support for him; his polarising effect will further damage the tory party and his 'legacy'; he will leave a formal announcement as late as possible; he will present his decision - stand or not - as being in the best interests of the country (and party).
Seven years old in 1945? When Atlee won the election for labour, first chance people got to vote for a pm after the war. And Churchill campaigned on ‘the fight starts now’.
(Churchill’s popularity has become somewhat exaggerated.)
Lest I be mistaken. I was not acknowledging any personal admiration for Churchill. I was just questioning the claim, that anyone voting in the forthcoming election for Tory leader, could not remember Churchill.
According to Peston it is now reasonably possible that Rishi Sunak could be declared Prime Minister on Monday.
https://www.itv.com/news/2022-10-22/how-sunak-could-be-crowned-pm-on-monday
I guess his assessment that Johnson can only win if it goes to the membership is probably correct. With that in mind I can imagine some of Penny Mordaunt's potential supporters switching to Sunak to avoid it going to the membership.
According to Peston it is now reasonably possible that Rishi Sunak could be declared Prime Minister on Monday.
What happens with Sir Boris in the case of him losing?
Does he **** off on holiday / to the after-dinner speaking circuit again or does he once again become a good and dutiful* backbencher representing Uxbridge & South Ruislip?
*it's sarcasm...
I reckon he will be waiting in the wings for Sunak to lose the next general election.
He will then step forward into the limelight to rapturous applause and offer himself as the Tory Party's saviour to his adoring audience.
His ego demands it.
You don’t think things have got worse since Johnson resigned, are you for real?
I have never said that, have I? Pretty sure I and others have already gone on at too much length about why we Johnson is so much to blame for the sorry state of his party that led to Truss as PM. That his party is now utterly unsuitable for government, no matter how they shuffle around the MPs in the ministerial roles, is down to him. This slide for his party and our country is down to him. Anyway, keep defending Johnson. Looks like you could get plenty of opportunity if the Tory members give him another shot at the top job again. It's going to get even messier whatever, now that he's made this leadership contest all about him. Ego before all else.
I can imagine some of Penny Mordaunt’s potential supporters switching to Sunak to avoid it going to the membership
It doesn't matter if Mardaunt and Sunak supporting MPs join together... if Johnson can get his 100 MPs... and refuses to stand aside for the good of [ insert anything other than his name here ] ...then the members get a vote. If it's Sunak and Johnson that are put to the party members... well... division is guaranteed, a Johnson win far from ruled out. If it doesn't go to members... the betrayal narrative grows. If he'd just stayed out of the way... they might have found a way to sort this... there's no good resolution for them now.
Why would he cut short his jolly and come back if not to inflate his already overinflated ego to be our country’s saviour ? 🙄🙄🙄🙄
Watching people on TV this morning saying ok so he “ misbehaved” ? Really is that what you call it ? As for the slimy back stabbing , self serving toady MPs who want him back they seriously need to have a word with themselves 😡😡😡😡I did hear that if he gets to run the shit show again he would be in a position to make the outstanding investigation “ go away “ Give me strength !
Anyway, keep defending Johnson.
How about you stop repeating the same bollocks and actually explain why you were celebrating the Tory Party's removal of Johnson when the alternative was very clearly more right-wing than him?
It would appear that you don't mind right-wing as long as they are competent. Many Tory MPs and Tory supporters would agree with you.
Looks like you could get plenty of opportunity if the Tory members give him another shot at the top job again.
It actually looks like it might be you who could get plenty of opportunity to tell everyone why you think Rishi Sunak makes such a great Tory prime minister. I look forward to you defending his right-wing thatcherite economic policies.
If you had actually read the Peston link whose reference you were commenting on you would have seen that Peston was suggesting that Sunak might reach 179 nominations by Monday - more than half of all Tory MPs.
The Chairman of the 1922 Committee, Graham Brady, has made it clear that if one leadership candidate wins an overwhelming number of MPs votes on Monday then the other candidates will be expected to drop out, and it is therefore quite possible that the new PM will be declared on Monday.
You might disagree with Peston's assessment and believe that Johnson will likely refuse to step aside but I suspect that Peston has his finger on the Tory Party's pulse better than you have.
But we will see what actually happens soon enough.
Ernie, i really think you should step away from the forum for a while 😁
Anyway, Richard Holden MP who was a key figure in Johnson's first leadership campaign says the 100 MPs claimed to support Johnson this time round "don't exist"
How about you stop repeating the same bollocks and actually explain why you were celebrating the Tory Party’s removal of Johnson when the alternative was very clearly more right-wing than him?
Because he is utterly unfit to be PM. Fullstop. He's shown us that. Doesn't mean I want Sunak, or Truss, or any other members of the team he surrounded himself with filling his shoes. That they supported him in government while he lied and laughed in our faces means for me that they shouldn't be in the role as PM either. We need rid of the lot of them.
Graham Brady, has made it clear that if one leadership candidate wins an overwhelming number of MPs votes on Monday then the other candidates will be expected to drop out
Sounds like that's relying on the honour of whoever the other candidates are. If it's Johnson, and he has those 100+ MPs supporting him (let's hope he doesn't)... why would he step back? Whether he does or doesn't, what happens to all these MPs saying that either it must be him... or that it should be anyone but him? The party keeps fighting... their chance to unite is blown... all so that Johnson can feel wanted. There's no good option for them now... he's made sure of that. They'll be no party unity. Roll on the election...
Doesn’t mean I want Sunak, or Truss, or any other members of the team
Yes it does because that is what the alternative is.
If it was up to me I would rather that Gordon Brown took over as PM, but that isn't option. The option is Johnson, Patel, Sunak, Truss, Braverman, etc
Even someone like Ben Wallace has no realistic of becoming PM, and not least because he won't stand.
You have to accept how things are and what the realistic choices are, not what you might wish for.
What "I want", is for Johnson to become PM again for the briefest of time, against the wishes of the vast majority of his MPs, and for the fallout of the following month or so to remove the Conservatives' working majority, forcing a General Election to happen before the end of the year... and I want him taking them into that election and facing a huge electoral failure that eclipses the success he had in 2019. That's how I want him remembered... many in his party know full well he is unfit to govern, and have said so, but want him back because he is a "winner"... I want them looking back next year and accepting he is both unfit to govern AND a loser. The public have seen what he is like as PM... they won't be giving him another win. Will there be 100+ MPs shortsighted enough to deliver that...? Doubt it... but then they let Truss go to a vote of the membership, and that was as obviously insane move..! We'll see Monday.
Kelvin, Ernie, I generally appreciate your contributions to these threads, but not when you are tearing chunks out of each other for little to no reason. Could you both consider maybe just not rising to each other's bait in the future? It'd make everything so much nicer here.
Fair. I'll shut up.
Yup, I certainly find the whole process tedious. Although I do actually avoid raising to the bait probably more than you might imagine. I generally tend to avoid reading Kelvin's post and at best scan them.
But yeah childish taunting about "defending Boris" and other such bollocks should perhaps be ignored more diligently. Point taken.
Wife and I have (for now) jokingly decided that if Boris gets back in we'll sell up and move to Scotland. I don't think she realises I'm seriously up for that.
An ernie kelvin truce?
I'll give it 24 hours.
Wife and I have (for now) jokingly decided that if Boris gets back in we’ll sell up and move to Scotland. I don’t think she realises I’m seriously up for that.
Similar conversation has occurred here too!
