[Closed] Bombardier trains for Crossrail

Marvellous, cant believe any other country wouldn't give the contract to their indigenous producers when the only diff was credit rating.
Politicians are a bunch on muppets for getting this wrong in the first place

awesome.
I'm pleased.

Great news.

Hopefully some parts will be built in Crewe too, which would be good news for he area.

How political a decision was that then?

It wasn't.

It wasn't

Huzzah!

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You can't swing a £1bn rolling stock competition on political motivations (in the UK anyway)

If Hitachi or CAF successfully challenge then I might change my mind, but until then it's a fair competition IMO.

Great news, but which other EU countries with an established railway manufacturing industry would regard this as anything other than business as usual, I wonder.

There's an interesting discussion on this over on [url= http://www.londonreconnections.com/2014/bombardier-crossrail-rolling-stock/ ]London Reconnections[/url]. Particularly about the ultimate ownership of European manufacturers.

I've read that link, there's some interesting stuff in there, but lots of speculation and some completely wrong bits. I'd pick it apart, but it would be inappropriate to do so and I wouldn't fancy my name still appearing on the roll at the end of this year 🙂

I work for Hitachi... why is it so great we didn't get the order?

I was under the impression that Bombardier were a Canadian company.

It's great news but it also reminds me of the fact that our locomotive and rolling stock industries along with controls, comm's etc. were reduced to nothing in the early 90s. Some of the greatest in their field; GEC, BREL, Metro Cammel etc.

I work for Hitachi...

rail europe frankers?

Great news that a Canadian manufacturer who hold the government to ransom and who have no pedigree on delivering anything on time or to budget gets the contract.

I think it wrong to say it isn't a political decision. Under EU rules you are allowed to take social and other factors into account, as well as the economics. It is just historically we haven't, the present government when Bombardier lost their last high profile contract, Thameslink, said that they were hamstrung by the tendering process created by the previous government which restricted comparison to economics, despite EU allowing other factors in. They said this was wrong and said it would not happen again in future tenders. That was a political decision and a very good one.

Just as long as the coaches have aircon, I'll be happy.

Sunny Brentwood to Bank in 30mins or about an extra 15 mins in bed !!

Oh and about what? 10-15% on my house price... thanks vmuch

I work for Hitachi... why is it so great we didn't get the order?

Agreed. Hitachi are currently building a massive new factory a couple of miles from me that will bring loads of jobs to the North East.

Under EU rules you are allowed to take social and other factors into account, as well as the economics. It is just historically we haven't

It's not that straight forward. Also, we have done it historically, lots.

It is a sodding post on a cycling website, not a legal treatise.

But you forget, he's a lawyer...

Woah there cowboy!

What's with the attitude?

You're allowed to give your opinion, but I'm not?

Stop being so touchy.

😆

Probably should have added a smiley and yes I know he is a lawyer, hence my use of "legal treatise", the essential thrust of my post was other factors can be taken into account, which are clearly political in nature.

The French wouldn't understand this thread, methinks!

Why the love for Bombardier?
OK, what springs to mind when you hear "hitachi"?
Now, what nationalistic and heartwarming images does the word" Bombardier" conjure up?
It is an image thing, including the sympathy vote.

Thankfully this time a train related tax payer funded contract let to support jobs in the UK.

Just like they do in the rest of Europe! viva La France, German efficiency, Italian flare, etc, etc, etc

I'm not a rail engineer, or for that matter 'an enthusiast', but I do design the bits that people use to get to and from the trains, and as such (excepting the fact the the government has changed the procurement rules after Thameslink, and Siemens walked away), the main benefit of the [s]Canadian[/s] [s]German[/s] British Bombardier contract ensures that at least some of the design for the trains is carried out in the UK, rather than, say, Hitachi's which'll be assembling trains manufactured elsewhere (to my understanding - happy to be proven wrong).

Probably should have added a smiley and yes I know he is a lawyer, hence my use of "legal treatise", the essential thrust of my post was other factors can be taken into account, which are clearly political in nature.

I think, on thameslink, they just got it wrong. It wasn't so much the political drivers that got it wrong, they just screwed up putting together the competition so that another company was able to win. At the same time thameslink was going on, we had another reach preferred bidder where the emphasis on social/community benefits was huge. I don't think these decisions (certainly at that time) are driven from central government - for example one transport authority would always push on price, while another might be heavier on design. There was too much inconsistency across huge numbers of authority clients and how they structured their compeitions for politics to have too much influence.

I agree with you that politics can weigh in and say "wow, we don't want that to ever happen again...make sure that it doesn't" and procurements will take more of an advantage of social/community benefits requirements (if that's what they felt is necessary to appease the voters)...but they were always there to begin with, some just chose not to put as much emphasis on them. With Crossrail, they didn't screw up the competition. They knew who they wanted to win, knew they couldn't afford another screw up and made sure the procurement was watertight. IMO that would have happened regardless of the politicians wading in.

At the end of the day, if you're weighted at 95% price and 5% quality, it doesn't matter how great you social benefits are if Le Froggies come in and undercut you 🙂

OK, what springs to mind when you hear "hitachi"?

A 1980s VCR. Why, what does it do for you?

Now, what nationalistic and heartwarming images does the word" Bombardier" conjure up?

Rik Mayall in a silly outfit is the closest I can think of. Not sure it's relevant.

If you mean Bombardier the train manufacturer. I think of a Canadian owned manufacturer. No real heartwarming nationalism there either.

Purple?!
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[url= http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/articles/crossrail-rolling-stock-and-depot-contract-to-be-awarded-to-bombardier ]http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/articles/crossrail-rolling-stock-and-depot-contract-to-be-awarded-to-bombardier[/url]

I take your point but the authority clients are political too, politics aren't restricted to central government.

Lots of british train companies went out of buisnees due to lack of investment in new roolling stock we got the great hs, and under developed APTP, We lost BAYER PEACOCK, GEC, ENGLISH ELECTRIC, BTH, BREL, all the state owned rail companies, and many more, we got cheap and nasty Pacers, and Sprinters, Pendolinos courtesy of fiat, later sold to bombardier, and many other hopeless stock.

Now we are buying off the shelf trains, basicly carriges with under floor engines, or electric multiple units, no loco hauled stock as used to be the case.

It's good news, MAYBE the tide is turning....

The French wouldn't understand this thread, methinks!

Agreed, theirs would be getting built in Romania and Morocco!

I think of a Canadian owned manufacturer. No real heartwarming nationalism there either.

But most people would be wrong as its pronounced in a French manner (with a Canadian 'eh?' on the end). Its original name was L'Auto-Neige Bombardier Limitée, and it made snowmobiles.

Matt, that just sounds like an assumption tbh.

I think a lot of people are aware of the decline of UK owned train manufacturing. Even if not in depth.

Pretty sure (an assumption) that a lot of folk assume, that a lot of UK based manufacturing is foreign owned. Like TATA.

.The French wouldn't understand this thread, methinks!

Agreed, theirs would be getting built in Romania and Morocco

OK, ninfan, but I guess the French wouldn't have hobbled a company like BAe by subjecting them to the anti-corruptian laws we have recently introduced, thus making them uncompetitive in many of their previous markets.

I'm 100% with you on that!

I take your point but the authority clients are political too, politics aren't restricted to central government.

I suppose.

My point was coming from the perspective of seeing those politics in "action".

To use rolling stock as an example, the procuring authority decides its about time for some new rolling stock. They look around the room and the only person there who's been involved in any rolling stock deals is Gary, and he's about to retire (i'm exaggerating, but the point is that they generally lack a team capable of such a project without pulling in significant resources/expertise) .

So, they go out to the market and pick up a set of advisers (technical, design, legal, finance, insurance etc) who do these sort of deals constantly. On fairly unique deals they'll also pick up a commercial lead with a track record in getting these things done.

So now you've got half a dozen guys from the authority who will "lead" the deal, supported and guided by their team of advisers.

First task...it will take a year or two to set up the competition. The contracts, the financials, any reference design, the procurement issues, and regulatory stuff.

So where do you start? Well the commercial lead will start with the last deal he did which didn't get successfully challenged, the lawyers will dig out a set of contracts which worked ok and are a good match, the finance guys will start modelling from a similar deal....you get the picture 🙂

So, the client gets a starting point and it's tweaked from there. Problem is, you inherit everything. There's not a huge amount of "improving' from the last successful deal, just tweaking.

Unless you've got a really sophisticated client, it's just the same shit over and over for the most part. They're guided by their advisors rather than politics.

The concept of a truly bespoke deal is just too expensive and takes too long.

It's the same the world over IME. Most PPP deal teams weakest link is on the client side, the ones calling the shots. That's not supposed to be derogatory to them, it's just impossible for them to know what they doing if they only do it once or twice in their career, compared to those doing it non stop day in day out, it's hard for them to not be guided.

Pleased for the derby workers. But as a user....if bombardier's offering is anything like the utter s&&t stock I reluctantly am forced to use as their latest offering on the met line, then that's cross rail finished. It couldn't be worse designed. Utter &&&&. IMO.

Siemens built 380 's and 185's aren't without there problems either. The Bombardier 170's I drive for Scotrail are fine but not as reliable or ugly as the old 156's . 😉

Oldboy, ninfan: complete tripe from start to finish. Will respond in detail later when I can be arsed. Weird to hear that BAe has been hobbled by the UK government when the government spiked the antibribery investigation for political reasons.

It's a weird thread when Bombardier and BAe are both identified as British!