[Closed] Bob Crow dead

I wouldn't be hypocritical enough to mourn the loss of the type of Trades Union Leader that inflicts misery on others for his own ends.

I'm not sure he did all that for his own ends, if he was doing his job then he did it for RMT members, surely? He didn't really get paid all that much, (iirc 140k) considering the size of the union and the amount its members get paid because of his work.

Set aside that the organisation he headed being a union for a moment. Where else would a chief executive of such a large company/body/organisation get paid so little for changing so much for its members/employees/shareholders?

Get yourself a sense of perspective. People had to make alternative travel arrangements for a couple of days. well boo hoo for them

wow. is english a foreign language on here? since when does using the word "significant" mean mild inconvenience?

significant here means, life changing. Huge impact. Not being able to be there for someone in time.

ransos - Member

In case you hadn't noticed, most British workers aren't unionised.

Well aware of that, unaware of your point.

since when does using the word "significant" mean mild inconvenience?

I'm guessing its when you're under the impression that you should just stand there, while the whole ****ing world revolves around you 😆

aye, didn't agree with him, but it's good we have a country where there can be a strong voice against the government/policy that gets listened to - we might not like the outcome e.g. strikes etc, but society needs people like that

His dog was called Castro 😆

Sorry, you've lost me, i must have missed the bit where all the thatcher haters got locked up

I was questioning your use of the term 'not allowed'. It's a classic piece of right wing bollocks.

He's not a war criminal FFS.

Hang on he did support Millwall FC.

Well aware of that, unaware of your point.

The point is that where union membership is encouraged (Germany) we have better industrial relations, better terms and conditions, and better productivity.

Hildodger
When you die, get one of yiur family to email me, and ill come and dance on your grave.

Thats disgusting isnt it, well yiu started it

didnt like his politics BUT massive respect to a bloke who went out with his heart on his sleeve and fought for his union every day.

he didnt do compromise he didnt do idle threats he didnt do anything other than slog his guts out for his members

RIP big fella RESPECT.

ransos - Member

The point is that where union membership is encouraged (Germany) we have better industrial relations, better terms and conditions, and better productivity.

Which we may have been able to have here, if it wasn't for the unionists.

Grum - I do have bollocks but neither the left or the right one has wings. I try not to be a political person so i did not know that 'not allowed' was a political term. I just thought that people getting flamed for having an opinion on a dead man was a bit rich given the shit that was spouted after Thatchers death.

Personally I think it's bad taste to slag off the dead, regardless of your opinion of them, but it just seems a bit like it's ok for one side to do it but not the other.

Any way, I'm boring myself now.............

Which we may have been able to have here, if it wasn't for the unionists.

1. They have it in Germany, where management encourage union membership and employee representation (which is required by law in large companies).

2. We don't have it here, where labour laws are weaker, and most workplaces do not have union or employee representation.

Gee, I wonder what the connection is?

Personally I think it's bad taste to slag off the dead, regardless of your opinion of them, but it just seems a bit like it's ok for one side to do it but not the other.

I think it's bad taste to rejoice in the death of an old, senile woman, but perfectly reasonable to object the virtual deification we saw. State funeral? FFS.

How can you compare Thatcher and Crow, one was Prime Minister for a good few years, was involved in two major conflicts, huge chnges to the social and industrial landscape of the counrty etc etc and one was a Trade Union leader.

Anyway RIP Bob.

I wasn't comparing the people, but the fact that it's ok for people to sing hallelujah when one dies but not ok for people to do the same when the other dies.

Any way that's me done on the subject.

We don't have it here

...because the country voted in a leader on the promise that she would smash the greedy unrealistic unions.
It's because of dinosaurs like Scargill that we don't have the relationship that Germany enjoys between union and employer.

I wasn't comparing the people, but the fact that it's ok for people to sing hallelujah when one dies but not ok for people to do the same when the other dies.

^

this

wow. is english a foreign language on here? since when does using the word "significant" mean mild inconvenience?

significant here means, life changing. Huge impact. Not being able to be there for someone in time.

FWIW I have seen sliding doors is it like that?

Lovely characters on display here.

I wasn't comparing the people, but the fact that it's ok for people to sing hallelujah when one dies but not ok for people to do the same when the other dies.

Can you find some examples of the same person saying it's ok to celebrate Thatcher's death but not Bob Crow's? Because otherwise you're just making a basic logical fallacy.

Clearly people are 'allowed' to say whatever they like about Bob Crow, as they were about Thatcher. It's a classic right wing whinge to claim that you aren't 'allowed' to say certain things, when it's patently not true.

FWIW I thought celebrating Thatcher's death was a bit tasteless - even though she was a vile woman who cosied up to some of the world's worst murderers like Pinochet.

Anyone know the cause .... ?

Bird Flu ?

The mans actions affected my life significantly in the last strike

You do realise they do an Eastenders omnibus on a Sunday afternoon?

..because the country voted in a leader on the promise that she would smash the greedy unrealistic unions.
It's because of dinosaurs like Scargill that we don't have the relationship that Germany enjoys between union and employer.

You do realise that the miners' strike was 30 years ago? Even if what you say is true (which it isn't), that's a very long time for successive governments to establish a German-style model. They haven't, because they don't want to. Meanwhile, the gap between rich and poor continues to grow - I'm sure you'll try to tell us that's the fault of the unions too.

Hush with your rational points we are throwing straw mans/ad homs/abuse at each other depending on what side of the political fence you sit

No need for rationality here

derekfish - Member

I wouldn't be hypocritical enough to mourn the loss of the type of Trades Union Leader that inflicts misery on others for his own ends.

...and the ends of his members. Now tell me, where do you stand on the sort of business leader that inflicts misery on their employees? Or for that matter, on the sort of business leader that in conjunction with union leaders creates the conditions for a strike? It takes 2 to tango.

Boris just gave him quite a nice "thumbs up" on the BBC News...

ransos - Member

You do realise that the miners' strike was 30 years ago?

Yes, I remember it.

Even if what you say is true (which it isn't)

We've already established we have a difference of opinion.

that's a very long time for successive governments to establish a German-style model. They haven't, because they don't want to. Meanwhile, the gap between rich and poor continues to grow - I'm sure you'll try to tell us that's the fault of the unions too.

No, it's Thatcher's fault. Just ask binners.

No, it's Thatcher's fault. Just ask binners.

Yep, I blame Thatcher too.

With all this talk of how evil the unions are and what a money-grabbing hypocrite Bob Crow was, perhaps it's a good time to point out that on the same day as his death, the chief executive of the Coop has thrown his dummy out of the pram and resigned because he feels the job is too difficult for the derisory pay of 3 million a year.

We've already established we have a difference of opinion.

Yes, you think it's simple and I think it's complicated.

No, it's Thatcher's fault. Just ask binners.

Mostly though not exclusively. It's certainly not the fault of the unions, which proves what I'm saying.

[i] the chief executive of the Coop has thrown his dummy out of the pram and resigned because he feels the job is too difficult for the derisory pay of 3 million a year. [/i]

Well, no, but nice try.

[i] It's certainly not the fault of the unions[/i]

Is it Binners' fault?

Mostly though not exclusively. It's certainly not the fault of the unions, which proves what I'm saying.

Proves what you're saying?
😆
Do remember when Thatcher was voted in?
Do you remember why she was voted in?

I'll give you a clue: I've already told you.

the chief executive of the Coop has thrown his dummy out of the pram and resigned because he feels the job is too difficult for the derisory pay of 3 million a year.

No denying his pay and others are over the top, but I think he is right about Co-op its a giant mess.

Northwind - Member
derekfish - Member
I wouldn't be hypocritical enough to mourn the loss of the type of Trades Union Leader that inflicts misery on others for his own ends.

...and the ends of his members. Now tell me, where do you stand on the sort of business leader that inflicts misery on their employees? Or for that matter, on the sort of business leader that in conjunction with union leaders creates the conditions for a strike? It takes 2 to tango.

They are equally to blame, but let's consider who the business leader represents here? As with the case of the Coal Board back in the Gormley days, it was the state, that is you and me, so what was the eventual outcome? The pitiful situation we have today, by Gormley creating the seventies ransom, Thatcher became empowered to wreak her havoc. Bob Crows confrontational style will only hasten the inevitable automation with little public sympathy for the job losses and inevitable safety and insecure feelings that an automated tube system will bring.

Do you remember why she was voted in?

Yes, she said 'Look, if you f*** everyone else over and only care about yourself, you just might get lucky and be one of the well off.' and about 43% of the voters said, 'yep, I'll take that, I never liked my neighbours anyhow'.

So that's a no then.

ransos - Member

Meanwhile, the gap between rich and poor continues to grow

You are aware that Mr Crow spent an awful amount of energy trying to secure more money for people who were already earning in excess of the national average?

Proves what you're saying?

Yes. As I've already said, it's been a very long time since the unions had any real power in this country.

Do remember when Thatcher was voted in? Do you remember why she was voted in?

To increase pay, reduce inflation and create jobs.

That's what their 1979 manifesto said, anyway. Perhaps you could remind us how they got on?

secure more money for people who were already earning in excess of the national average?

Which is why far more people are in need of unions.

You are aware that Mr Crow spent an awful amount of energy trying to secure more money for people who were already earning in excess of the national average?

If only people earning less than average had decent union representation...

So that's a no then.

Well it's half right. She got in because 43% of those who voted, voted for her party. As for their personal reasons for doing so: 90% will have just voted along family lines (as is the way in the UK) and about 10% will have been swung by a variety of issues...

[b]perhaps it's a good time[/b] to point out that on the same day as his death, the chief executive of the Coop has thrown his dummy out of the pram and resigned because he feels the job is too difficult for the derisory pay of 3 million a year.

It might be a good time to point out why he [b]actually [/b]resigned.

It's never a good time to make stuff up in an attempt to prove a point

I see it's hypocrites play day today.

Shame for Crow's family and same applies Boris's also.

Out of interest I found the Conservative manifesto for 1979. Five point thingy. Of course all manifestos are generally not worth the paper they are written on, but here they are...

[list]
[*]To restore the health of our economic and social life, by controlling inflation and striking a fair balance between the rights and duties of the trade union movement.[/*]
[*]To restore incentives so that hard work pays, success is rewarded and genuine new jobs are created in an expanding economy.[/*]
[*]To uphold Parliament and the rule of law.[/*]
[*]To support family life, by helping people to become home-owners, raising the standards of their children's education, and concentrating welfare services on the effective support of the old, the sick, the disabled and those who are in real need.[/*]
[*]To strengthen Britain's defences and work with our allies to protect our interests in an increasingly threatening world.[/*]
[/list]

Bob Crows confrontational style will only hasten the inevitable automation with little public sympathy for the job losses and inevitable safety and insecure feelings that an automated tube system will bring.

Nah, that will happen regardless of how malleable their union is.

footflaps - Member

Yes, she said 'Look, if you f*** everyone else over and only care about yourself, you just might get lucky and be one of the well off.' and about 43% of the voters said, 'yep, I'll take that, I never liked my neighbours anyhow'.

She was voted in because of her promise to break the unions, and you know this footflaps.

She was voted in because of her promise to break the unions, and you know this footflaps.

I can't find that promise anywhere in the manifesto, perhaps you could point it out? When you have, perhaps you could present the evidence that this is why people voted conservative.

ransos - Member

I can't find that promise anywhere in the manifesto, perhaps you could point it out? When you have, perhaps you could present the evidence that this is why people voted conservative.

So when we had rubbish piling up in the streets, power blackouts, even bodies piling up in morgues, the general population were all too happy about it?
Jesus Titty ****ing Christ.
Either your memory is going, you actually have no idea, or you're in complete denial.

Pick any one, I'm going shopping. 🙂

It might be a good time to point out why he actually resigned.

So it's just a coincidence that he resigned days after the massive pay rise he and his fellow board members approved for themselves is called into question after being leaked? If the Coop is so un-governable why didn't he resign a month ago?

I heard him speak at the FBU Conference and he was superb. Did his job and improved the lot of his members. I'm proud to be a member of a Trade Union and would have been proud to stand shoulder to shoulder with Bob. RIP.

I had a good idea this forum had over it's fair share of c***s and I have no reason to believe differently today.

oh dear. Sad to hear about this. RIP

So when we had rubbish piling up in the streets, power blackouts, even bodies piling up in morgues, the general population were all too happy about it?

It was only a matter of time before someone started shouting 'THE DEAD WERE LEFT UNBURIED!'.

[i]So it's just a coincidence that he resigned days after the massive pay rise he and his fellow board members approved for themselves is called into question after being leaked? If the Coop is so un-governable why didn't he resign a month ago? [/i]

Because maybe the fact that the pay deal was leaked was the last straw, proving to him once and or all that (elements within) the Group are so resistant to change that they will even use nefarious means to prevent it, such as trying to undermine the Chief Exec?

What he's said to the Board, and therefore the Group, is "you've asked me to turn this Group around, but you won't be turned around, so I'm wasting my time and you're wasting your money, so I may as well leave". Sounds fair enough to me.

So when we had rubbish piling up in the streets, power blackouts, even bodies piling up in morgues, the general population were all too happy about it?
Jesus Titty **** Christ.
Either your memory is going, you actually have no idea, or you're in complete denial.

Pick any one, I'm going shopping.

I made a simple request for you to support your assertion that Thatcher was voted in because she promised to smash the unions. That you have not done so tells me you can't, because she didn't.

As an aside, I can only assume that you forgot about the raging inflation, mass unemployment and social unrest that were the hallmarks of the conservative government. Either that, or you just don't care.

It was only a matter of time before someone started shouting 'THE DEAD WERE LEFT UNBURIED!'.

Never forget: in any industrial dispute, it's always the fault of the unions.

Living is hard.

Everything you have can be taken away from you in one single moment.

We come into this world with nothing and we shall leave this world with nothing.

The only certainty is death.

He's gone shopping. 🙁

She was voted in because of her promise to break the unions, and you know this footflaps.

I think you're looking at the past through (anti-union) tinted glasses. That was only a small part of the manifesto and not even the main item. The big ticket item was control of inflation.

http://www.conservative-party.net/manifestos/1979/1979-conservative-manifesto.shtml

The big ticket item was control of inflation.

...which went up to 18% by 1980. And 3 million unemployed.

But she wasn't voted in because she promised to fail in her kpi's was she?

Because maybe the fact that the pay deal was leaked was the last straw, proving to him once and or all that (elements within) the Group are so resistant to change that they will even use nefarious means to prevent it, such as trying to undermine the Chief Exec?

Or maybe another interpretation is that he was happy to be the head of an un-governable organisation and have a job which was un-doable as long as he was paid a ridiculous amount of money which wasn't dependent on success, and if they didn't pay him that he'd bugger off and leave them in the sh*t. And to think people accuse the unions of holding employers to ransom!

The big ticket item was control of inflation.

...which went up to 18% by 1980. And 3 million unemployed.

Or maybe another interpretation is that he was happy to be the head of an un-governable organisation and have a job which was un-doable as long as he was paid a ridiculous amount of money which wasn't dependent on success, and if they didn't pay him that he'd bugger off and leave them in the sh*t. And to think people accuse the unions of holding employers to ransom!

An alternative to speculation is to read the news release from the Co-op in which he says he's not taking the money.

Yes now he isn't, because he can't if he wants to retain any shred of integrity. Pity he didn't have the same scruples when his salary consultants sent him the report recommending that he and his board should have their remuneration packages massively increased despite the fact that they were presiding over a loss-making organisation and 5000 redundancies.

The inflation was oil price related (oil price more than doubled, from memory). It started to rise under Labour in 1978, continued to do so under the Tories until 1980-81 when it started to come down. Doubt either party could have stopped that.

So jobs how did she deliver on that one then? Should be less controversial

I will not accept the retention payments and long term incentive payments previously agreed for the delivery and protection of value in the Group and the Bank, even though this was successfully delivered.

Our five tasks are:

To restore the health of our economic and social life, by controlling inflation and striking a fair balance between the rights and duties of the trade union movement.
To restore incentives so that hard work pays, success is rewarded and genuine new jobs are created in an expanding economy.
To uphold Parliament and the rule of law.
To support family life, by helping people to become home-owners, raising the standards of their children's education, and concentrating welfare services on the effective support of the old, the sick, the disabled and those who are in real need.
To strengthen Britain's defences and work with our allies to protect our interests in an increasingly threatening world.

Tory manifesto 1979 - Union reform no 1 task together with control of inflation as already posted.

To restore the health of our economic and social life, by controlling inflation and striking a fair balance between the rights and duties of the trade union movement.

Although in the detail, Unions are #3 under "Control Inflation" & "Better Value for Money".

As an RMT member I didn't agree with all he did but I thank him for keeping my final salary pension intact, my workplace safe, my free travel facilities and for standing up to a rail infrastructure company when our small dept of 12 people was bullied into signing new contracts and losing most of our OT and shift enhancements. He got involved and within 48hrs we were all asked if we wanted to be put back on our original contracts.

RIP Brother Crow.

Yaaaaaa! Lets all have final salary scheme for 20yrs +

Erm whos paying for it? Train passengers.

[quote=hora said]Yaaaaaa! Lets all have final salary scheme for 20yrs +
Erm whos paying for it? Train passengers.

London council tax payers too. But they're all loaded 🙂

Can we put this thread in the Encyclopedia Galactica under 'Singletrackworld Forum', it will save so much time, and space...

EDIT: also, a giant of what he believed in (whatever you think that might be), last of a kind we just don't make any more. More fool us, what ever you think of the discussion, it's a discussion you should worry if we stop having it.

Union dinosaur, but RIP and condolences to his family.

Hora, why do you hate ordinary people so much?
Not being funny, but are you ashamed of your background?

RIP Bob, the last man prepared to stand up for working people.

Like my Grandad, an old NALGO chief, leaders like this are sorely missed in this generation.

Or by me anyway.

Rest comfortably, sir!

Erm whos paying for it? Train passengers.

I know someone who works on train line maintenance/safety, and the level of waste/inefficiency/incompetence/borderline fraud is absolutely staggering. And several layers of subcontractors are making absolutely vast profits out of it.

Wasn't the wonderful efficient private sector meant to make everything work so much better?

I think I'd be getting cross about that before going after decent working conditions/rights for ordinary people.