Sorry my mistake, I presumed here on STW we did make the decisions about how everything in the world should be done 😆
Aye - my life is not complete without a blinged up unobtainium bike and due to congenital workshyness I can't earn enough money to have one - can I get one on the NHS?
Sorry to trivialise what is obviously painful to those of you that are infertile but IMO as an NHS worker there is a huge difference between treatments that are [b]needed[/b] to restore health or improve quality of life and treatments that people [b]want[/b] for cosmetic or social reasons.
As said above the people wanting this treatment are the last who can have an objective view on it. Their views should be considered but should not be the sole arbiter
If there was plenty of money in the pot them fine - but when one round of IVF costs around the same as one hip replacement................? What treatments should be not given so you can have IVF - the pot of money is finite so one persons IVF means another does not get treated. for something else. Mrs T waits longer for breast cancer treatment? Mr J does not get his hernia repaired this year?
I do absolutely sympathise with MF tho for being caught on the wrong end of a postcode lottery - that just stinks to high heaven.
[i]Am I not being clear?[/i]
perfectly clear.
[banging head against wall]
I am NOT saying that infertile people should be making the decisions for the NHS.
[/banging head against wall]
We know MF, keep on banging though 😆
You made yourself clear to me
I mean they are the ones that are qualified to say whether they would expect to have the procedure covered by the NHS
Oh! & no they're not
Crossed posts. However you do say
Only a very fine line really.I mean they are the ones that are qualified to say whether they would expect to have the procedure covered by the NHS.
I think I understand what you are getting at. as I have absolutely no desire to be a parent then I cannot understand why you are so anxious to be one - that your point?
as I have absolutely no desire to be a parent then I cannot understand why you are so anxious to be one - that your point?
Sort of, yes. You don't see the importance of IVF as you do not want to be a parent. If in the future you wanted to be a parent and found you couldn't, you may feel differently about your local PCTs provision for the service.
So MF - to give IVF free on the NHS what treatments do you drop? Its a finite amount of money and IVF is expensive. One course of IVF = one hip replecement or 3 hernia repairs or 6 bunion repairs. ( very roughly)
Whos treament can be delayed or not done so you can have IVF?
That isn't for me to decide.
The National Institute for Clinical Excellence advises what treatment should and shouldn't be provided on the NHS and they recommend that all qualifying couples (those that meet age and previous history requirements) should receive three courses of treatment using whatever method is required (which is advised by their consultant). The Government agrees with the NICE guidelines and has officially stated that all PCTs should follow the guidance.
My issue has only ever been that because I life in one of the three remaining PCTs out of the 165 nationwide that have made a local decision to ignore the recommendations, that we had to pay for our treatment.
It would be churlish for me to say that x, y or z treatment should be withdrawn in order for us to get the treatment we required.
To put it another way, if you required expensive cancer drugs (supply of which is subject to similar local decision-making as IVF provision) and you were told that your PCT did not provide them, but your neighbouring one did, how would you feel when you realise that you didn't have access to something that other individuals with a different postcode did?
In an over crowded resource short world free IVF is amoral. TJ is right about what treatment would you get rid of? The postcode lottery should not exist on IVF because it should not be available unless you pay privatly. Alternatively those that have NHS treatment based on want should forfit later need treatment as an off set to their use of resource.
free IVF
It isn't free, the NHS is a service paid for through tax and NI contributions.
MF - As I said earlier the postcode lottery you were on the wrong side of stinks to high heaven and I totally understand your frustration with it. The whole point tho is that you did not require that treatment. You wanted it. Not the same thing. Your own physical life was not affected by the infertility
As for the expensive cancer drugs - you mean such as Herceptin? As I understand that all they do is prolong your death not your life I wouldn't want them. I'll be shuffling off this mortal coil at a time of my choosing before these things are even considered
MT - the first half of your post is fine but the second baloney
In an over crowded resource short world free IVF is amoral
The postcode lottery should not exist on IVF because it should not be available unless you pay privatly.
Could not have put it better myself, well done that man (or woman).
Alternatively those that have NHS treatment based on want should forfit later need treatment as an off set to their use of resource.
Going a bit far i feel though!
"In an over crowded resource short world" According to a news article I heard yesterday, the world population is currently a) stabilising and b) ageing, and by the second half of this century will probably be falling, and most European countries are trying to increase their birth rate at the moment.
TJ,sofa - I agree it's a bit harsh and would not put that in place but it is a way to put in perspective what we take out of the NHS.
MF - when you need treatment you have payed money in I agree but it when you want treatment then it's pay time. Need should have no questions.
That isn't for me to decide.The National Institute for Clinical Excellence
As someone who works within the NHS I can state that NICE is completely divorced from the reality of clinical care. It is great to say that this should be the the case, but the reality is funding is limited, and the provision of one service is often at the cost of another. Something NICE do not seem to be aware of.
Of course it does. the government wants to be seen to be providing the best of everything. But the government tell us we should be reducing waiting times, meaning seeing more patients, whilst cutting our budget and hampering our ability to do exactly that. How do we see more patients when we struggle to keep staff, far less employ new staff. Not that it matters because we don't have the money to buy the equipment they need to operate? Still, at least we've got NICE telling us what we should be doing. And some whinging d1cks letting us know about it on a daily basis.The Government agrees with the NICE guidelines and has officially stated that all PCTs should follow the guidance.
B
MF - when you need treatment you have payed money in I agree but it when you want treatment then it's pay time. Need should have no questions.
Fair enough, that is your point of view. I was merely pointing out that IVF, just like any treatment carried out by the NHS, is not free.
You can't beat the positive "can-do" attitude of the modern NHS worker! 😉
BigBut - So do you want the NHS to run autonomously from Governmental, patient and professional advice?
I agree with TJ (worryingly I am doing a lot of that).
Whilst people who [b]want[/b] IVF feel angry about not gettingm"treatment" and the postcode lottery makes this worse.
As far as I can tell someone who is not pregnant is not ill however much it upsets them.
Surely if it means that much to you o have children /family then why not adopt a child?
Onehundred
And a well drifted thread.
Junkyard - does that mean I'm right or you are wrong?
This is down to a faith / belief based argument now. Everything that can be said has been and people are retreating to entrenched positions
OnehundredAnd a well drifted thread
You bugger, you beat me to it 😆
As far as I can tell someone who is not pregnant is not ill
I suppose that depends on how you define ill. A person who cannot get pregnant has something that is going wrong in their body somewhere, they are not functioning correctly.
As a child, I had 4 eye operations to correct a squint - I wasn't "ill" but my eye was not functioning correctly, the NHS treated that. Do you think they should have done?
BigBut - So do you want the NHS to run autonomously from Governmental, patient and professional advice
Read my post.
If NICE are going to tell the clinical services what should happen, then they should also take a look at the reality of the NHS and suggest how it should happen. For example, you believe that, because NICE say so, IVF should be available free on the NHS. The NHS works with the funds it has, so if IVF is made available for free in all Trusts, then it would have to be paid for. How would that happen? realistsically, it would happen by cutting other services. Any idea which services should be cut? NICE choose to do what you do on this issue and just sidestep it, which gives people like you something to whine about - "this should happen because NICE say.." blah blah blah. Perhaps, if we're to be told what we should spend money on NICE should provide a list of priorities, with what? IVF at the top, cancer in the middle, mental health at the bottom? Have a close look and you might see A&E services being closed across the country and transferred to bigger centres. All money being saved to spend on more worthwhile projects like IVF clinics?
And the Government agree with NICE...
Any idea which services should be cut?[b] NICE choose to do what you do on this issue and just sidestep it[/b], which gives people like you something to whine about
I remember reading a quote on this subject from TJ along the lines of "People who can't have kids are infertile for a reason and shouldn't be helped, dont mess with god" it was like Glen Hoddles "cripples are like it because they've done something in a previous life" total and utter shite 😉
*/Pedant mode/*
People on the NHS are not Dr. They are medical profeissionals. You need a PhD to be a Dr.
*/Pedant mode/*
BlingBling - MemberI remember reading a quote on this subject from TJ along the lines of "People who can't have kids are infertile for a reason and shouldn't be helped, dont mess with god" it was like Glen Hoddles "cripples are like it because they've done something in a previous life" total and utter shite
Well you remember wrong then. Not my style at all - even in jest. Not me with that quote.
Oh yes it was.
*cant find it grrrrr
Sorry bling bling - I don't believe in God, I don't believe in that sot of thing. No way was it me.
I think I remember the post and it was on a thread I contributed to but no way on earth would I say anything like that - simply because I don't believe that.
really, slag off the NHS all you want. you'll all be kicking yourselves if it wasn't there.
i'm in germany, the land of socialism and yet i should have my own private health insurance by law. so basically another tax in an already heavily taxed land.
back as a self employed carpenter in the UK my NI contributions were around £20/month. a nominal fee i'll admit but it would cover me if anything were to happen at work or in my free time. in all my time in the UK (24 years) i only visited the hospital around 3 times. the biggest thing being for a broken arm after stacking it on my Roces. my teeth would be looked after and i visited a doctor around once a year if that.
in germany, i should be paying 13.5% (minimum) of what i earn into an insurance fund. as it is i earn sweet FA so have not signed up anywhere. when i was employed (as opposed to self-employed) i was paying around 230€/month. and not once did i need to visit a doctor (for the privilage of such you pay another 10€).
as it is i'm now suffering from some strange red-eyedness (no i'm not stoned) and have been for around a month or so and half a tooth fell out last week whilst eating a slice of bread.
i'm actually scared how much all this is going to cost.
so don't slag off the NHS.
yes people take the piss with it. it should be there to make people fit again, not supply them with a few drugs that will allow them to live an extra month or year, or to change their sex, supply them with kids nature didn't plan for the them to have (sorry MF).
anyone in the UK can use the NHS free of charge when visiting. that is not something you are entitled to in other "advanced" or socially aware countries.
enjoy it, don't abuse or bemoan it.
I'd rather the NHS money be spent on IVF than spent trying to get fat people to lose weight (here's an idea...stop eating) or hypnotherapy/acupuncture/gum/patches for smokers to quit smoking (dont buy them and you cant smoke them.
[i]People on the NHS are not Dr. They are medical profeissionals. You need a PhD to be a Dr.[/i]
Ah yes and a PHD in Medicine doesn't count. 🙄
bling bling, i'd agree with that but essentailly those people unable to conceive are still breathing and are able to adopt. those idiots who eat themselves silly and end up blaming their genes should be left to it as they know the risks involved in stuffing your face full of shit.
same goes for smokers even though my old man coughs his guts up each morning having smoked for the last 50 yrs of his 66yrs on this earth.
Ah yes and a PHD in Medicine doesn't count.
Well apparently you don't need one to be a medical professional in the UK 😀
Alpin so you would agree that if a mtber get to an hosptital after a bad crash he should be left on the side. After he did know the risks quite well before it jumped on the bike.
no, obviously.
prolonged health abuse is different though.
as an aside Juan, how does it work in France? must each of you have private insurance or is it provided by the state?
The thing about helping fatties to stop gorging and smokers to stop puffing is that these two things save the country money.
I'm thankful to the smokers out there - they provide the funds for my medical treatment (way in excess of their cost to the NHS), then drop dead at 60 so don't leach off the pensions fund.
The people we really need to sort out are teatotal, non-smokers who walk and cycle everywhere, don't own a car and stay fit.
Those ****ers pay next to sod all in taxes throughout their life, use the NHS for their self inflicted exercise related injuries, remain a burden on the NHS by requiring loads of age related care and live to be 100 y/o needing 30 plus years of pension.
I'm thankful to the smokers out there - they provide the funds for my medical treatment (way in excess of their cost to the NHS), then drop dead at 60 so don't leach off the pensions fund.
The people we really need to sort out are teatotal, non-smokers who walk and cycle everywhere, don't own a car and stay fit.
Those ****ers pay next to sod all in taxes throughout their life, use the NHS for their self inflicted exercise related injuries, remain a burden on the NHS by requiring loads of age related care and live to be 100 y/o needing 30 plus years of pension.
TJ, not if you start refusing them NHS support for issues linked to being fat or smoking 😈
They'll soon stop.
No - they will just die.
I thought this was interesting, given this thread...
[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8234065.stm ]Linky - murderers to get cosmetic surgery...[/url]