[Closed] Biomass/Solar eco experts, advice sought. Stoner +?

Has anyone got forecast figures for wood chip and pellet prices given the expected surge in demand due to the RHI?

TT - yes, Im using Verdo at the moment who source local wood (Andover and somewhere in scotland). Previously I was using Balcas (enniskillen)

http://www.verdorenewables.co.uk/Products/Bagged-Wood-Pellets.aspx

Prof David Mackay the scientific adviser to DECC reckons there will be 20 million heat pumps in the UK by 2050.

what a load of hooey.

Unless the GSHP can be linked to a renewable electrical source then it's silly to use as an alternative to gas or biomass IMO.

I'm going to hear Prof MacKay lecture in Bristol next week - I'll be sure to tell him you disagree!

MacKay made some ludicrously optimistic assumptions about the efficiency of heat pumps - he was out by nearly a factor of 2 when a real-world trial reported back.

As Stoner says, they're not a worthwhile alternative to mains gas. If you don't have mains gas, they're worth looking at.

TT - ask him what he thinks the future optimum efficiency will be on GSHP and what he thinks they are now, and how we get from now to then.

I believe now its around 4 to 1 coefficient of performance. I cant believe it tops out much above 5.

Is anyone heating their house at present? 23.8°C here with no heating on(living in SW France has its advantages). Still on 100% solar hot water too though the next properly cloudy day will force use of the immersion heater.

not got the heating on, but the solar isnt doing the hot water on it's own. Need pellet boiler help. Looks like at a rate of about 20kWh a day.

rainy worcestershire aint SW France 😛

MacKay suggest coefficient of efficiency of heat pumps of 3-4 in his book, those numbers are easily achievable with a well designed heat pump system and are being achieved and surpassed in this country. Cops of 5 will be achieved. Once you chuck in a green source of electricity then the numbers are exceptional.

Remind me how does biomass provide cooling?

The question is do you want to go completely green or do you would want to be sustainable if the later heat pumps make sense especially when you throw in a cooling requirement. This is obviously not a significant part of the residential market but it is in the commercial sector.

Using low-level geothermal heat, heat pumps are already at 4.5 plus but that demands a big garden or drilling. Neither being practical in the majority of British housing so you are down to air/air heat pumps. The ones sold in my local DIY store don't beat the critical 3.3 which make them better than burning fossil fuels in a power station and suffering transmission losses. Still much better than plugging in an electrical resistance if it's cold rather than freezing outside. The performance of air/air is lousy when it's very cold though; dropping from +7°C to -7°C halfs the efficiency. Goggle [url= http://www.daikin.fr/binaries/250.DOC.ERHQ.10_tcm39-60029_tcm39-195170.pdf ]Daikin[/url] for the manufacturer's claims.

As for cooling, when are you going to need that in the UK? Even in SW France we can keep the house pleasant (two or three degrees above the lowest daily temperature) just with intelligent use of shutters and windows. In winter we can maintain the house two or three degrees above the highest daily temperature.

If you read my post, I recognised that the demand for cooling in the residential market was not a major driver, but it is in the commercial market where cooling is a key requirement.

As far as housing is concerned retrofit certainly makes most sense in the high end residential market where access/area is not an issue. That said for new housing it will be a no brainer as the collection loop can either be incorporated in or be under the foundations. On this basis, MacKay's prophecy becomes realisable in the next forty years.

Air to air works but cops are not as good as you rightly say, likewise you are right on big temperature differentials, however the UK does not suffer sufficient temperatures changes for it to be a major issue unlike Sweden which has significant uptake of heat pumps.

We have disgressed from the original post but I just wanted to reply to Stonor's balderdash.

Didn't Mackay's book suggest a pretty high reliance on that not so renewable source, nuclear power?

Anyway does anyone think the price of pellet will go up or down once the renewable heat incentive comes in proper?

How much of the existing housing stock has been replaced in the last 40 years? Not a fat lot. I think claiming 20 million homes with heat pumps by 2050 is balderdash but probably won't live to find out. I went to a planning meeting tonight about a new swimming complex for my town. Geothermal with a heat pump for energy production wasn't considered because it would have increased cost and increased the build time by 18 months (or so they claimed), and that despite perfect geological conditions. There's no political will or economic advantage so 20 million heat pumps won't happen. The standards for new homes now are pathetic compared with what can be achieved and therin lies the problem.

Retrofitting commercial property with external blinds that let low Winter sun through but keep out the higher Summer sun would eliminate the need for A/C in many cases.

I think pellet costs will remain competitive regardless of RHI takeup.

There's a relatively low cost to enter the supply market (unlike new entrants in oil, coal, nuclear, electricity etc), there's plenty of opportunity to convert waste wood into viable fuel that previously would have had no commercial value. Its also achievable on relatively small scale meaning even small timber operations can add pellet manufacturing to their business and encourage local fuel production and distribution.

Retrofitting commercial property with external blinds that let low Winter sun through but keep out the higher Summer sun would eliminate the need for A/C in many cases.

Some cases, but not many. Then you have the domestic housing stock that is woefully below the standards. It will take far more than a few blinds and shutters to improve that lot to meet the heat and cold plus increasing energy costs of the future.

Didn't Mackay's book suggest a pretty high reliance on that not so renewable source, nuclear power?

Lots of former nuclear sceptics are now accepting that nuclear can at least fill the gap in the immediate future. What else can generate that much electricity without just pushing carbon into the atmosphere? The electrification of our energy needs in the future is a massive problem that the current infrastructure (and energy sources) can't cope with.

I don't have a problem with non green sources of electricity, if you have reduced your reliance on them. That was my point of green vs sustainability.

Housing stock replacement - no idea you just have to travel by train to see how much has been built on old British Rail land.

Who said 20 million homes? I didn't and neither did the quote, it says heat pumps.

If it increased the build time by 18 months they have found someone who does not know how to manage a project - I would envisage 3-6 months on a big project, small projects should not take that much more.

We simply need to consume less and that means homes that consume next to nothing at all, not inefficient homes with A/C units.

We've had 40°C plus on occasion this year but inside the house has never been over 28°C despite minimum early morning outside temperatures of 25°C. The house has an overhanging roof. There are lots of solar panels on the south facing side to absorb as much solar energy as possible. There's 100mm of insulation between the roof chevrons, another 200mm at 90° to that before plasterboard. The roof space still gets unpleasantly warm but there's the ceiling with another 100mm of insulation and 21mm of wood to keep the living space cool.

When we bought the house it was like walking into an oven on a hot day, it now feels like walking into a railway tunnel.

We simply need to consume less and that means homes that consume next to nothing at all

and the challenge of retro-fitting almost all of the UK housing stock to achieve that is massive. There is currently no real drive from the government, the public or the building trade - so simply consuming less is a dream right now.

Edukator - efficient building is of course the better solution but where there is a demand for heat you need to do something else.

Which is why we've tried (and failed)to get the local authorities to use a heat pump and geothermal for the new pool. It's the best solution for maintaining a 50m outdoor pool at 27-29°C in Winter.

Retofitting existing homes with heat poumps is just one solution. Biomass is another but IMO the objective should be zero consumption. British houses are still being built with double glazing and no shutters. In Germany I noted houses bein built with triple glazing whilst in France double glazing with insulated shutters is the norm.

In my own home my objective is to insulate until firing up the wood burner once a day to cook the eveing meal is all the heating we need. I'm currently insulating under the floor with 100mm of recycled polyester.

ask him what he thinks the future optimum efficiency will be on GSHP and what he thinks they are now, and how we get from now to then.

I didn't get to ask a question, but he was an excellent lecturer and wasn't on for long enough. I know it isn't an answer, but he did tell us about the new standards for heat pump installations - research showed results for heat pumps were too variable and not good enough, so got better standards developed:

[url= http://www.utilityweek.co.uk/news/news_story.asp?id=195850&title=Guidelines+tightened+to+improve+heat+pump+performance ]Improving heat pump performance[/url]

Which is at least a good thing.

[img] [/img]

Rhat trench looks too shallow to me. I've seen them done here in France at 1m20 and Googled it to see what British installers recommend. The first [url= http://heat-pumps.highperformancehvac.com/heat-pump-types/ ]result gives 4-6 feet[/url]. At least 2/3 the height of that fence then.

My polish plumbers are just putting the final touches to the heat store installation.
Stove and load charger are fitted, Oil CH boiler has been re-routed.
Should all be up and running for the cold weather later this week 😀

pics or it didnt happen geoff.

Spangly new boiler stove - 14kw to water, 8kw to room
[url= http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6160/6207155907_28e68276ea.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6160/6207155907_28e68276ea.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

Dinky 300l Thermal Store - shoes are models own
[url= http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6180/6207157755_242c2f3116.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6180/6207157755_242c2f3116.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

Laddomat load charger - not completely convinced there isn't something a little snake oil-esque about it TBH
[url= http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6145/6207672476_8800bca816.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6145/6207672476_8800bca816.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

Panels from Kloben (don't ask!) due next week.

looking good.

not completely convinced there isn't something a little snake oil-esque about it

really? in what way?

looking good.
not completely convinced there isn't something a little snake oil-esque about it
really? in what way?

Dunno really. It's going to be useful to stop the stove acting as a heat sink once the solar circuit is fitted for sure, I just can't get my head around the advantages, once everything is up to temperature.
I'll report back after I've had a play.

It has no advnatages when everything is up to speed though, thats not what its there for.

Its to prevent chilling of the boiler through premature circulation of the water. If you chill the boiler or delay it getting up to heat then you increase the chance of flue gas condensate forming in the flue - this is corrosive stuff and ruins flues. The load controller also stops any risk of the boiler acting as a radiator in warmer weathers when the tank is hotter than the stove.

All seems to be working great and I learnt a couple of things.
1. The dial on the flu stat is really in Celsius, not Fahrenheit;
2. The stove is more than capable of running the rad and hw circuits; and
3. The boil safe valve on the heat store works 😳

any toast?

Only mrsj's nerves when the boil valve opened!

Spangly new boiler stove - 14kw to water, 8kw to room

Is that both at the same time, i.e. total output 22kw? That's some heat, what size is it, I take it you'll be using coal or it'll be a full time job keeping it stoked?

[img] [/img]

Is that both at the same time, i.e. total output 22kw? That's some heat, what size is it, I take it you'll be using coal or it'll be a full time job keeping it stoked?

Oops no, its 20kw (only 12 to boiler). I'm burning a mix of seasoned hard and softwood. Only used it for the first time last night, but it didn't seem too bad on wood. It has a vent thermostat which cuts the draw down once the water in the boiler is up to temp, so it burns quite slowly once everything is up to temperature.

It's this one - [url= http://www.stovesareus.co.uk/catalog/aarrow-ecoboiler-seb20-multifuel-woodburning-boiler-stove-p-4919.html ]linky[/url]

nice looking box that geoff.

Oops no, its 20kw (only 12 to boiler). I'm burning a mix of seasoned hard and softwood. Only used it for the first time last night, but it didn't seem too bad on wood.

I can't help but feel that it's going to take some serious stoking to produce those figures

Mebe - but as I managed to boil the heat store last night without really trying, I'm impressed so far.

The best bit about that stove is that I didn't have to re-route the flu and incur £500 worth of stove fitting bills as a result. It just slotted in almost exactly (had to take the t-piece up 15mm) where the old one was 8)

nice looking box that geoff.

+1

Good thread this one 8)

I managed to boil the heat store last night without really trying, I'm impressed so far

I'd echo what edukator has said [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/biomasssolar-eco-experts-advice-sought-stoner/page/3#post-2984013 ]here[/url]. Having worked with A/c I was biased towards its usage in commercial buildings, but I can not see any practical application in domestic use. It simply doesn't get hot enough in the UK to justify. If the internal temperature does increase to uncomfortable levels it's probably due to the rather large windows we seem to use and the solar heat gain. Solution? Ceiling fans, but this increases consumption and again I agree with edukator in that reducing consumption is the way forward. We need something that will block the sun on those rare sunny days to keep the temperature down, yet we'll want that sunlight on cold winter days and something to prevent heat loss at night through that large window area.
Edukator again has the experience of both significantly higher temperatures and the usage of insulated shutters. With regard to widespread usage in the UK from my point of view new installations are the way forward, but the retro-fitting isn't necessarily impossible (bay windows offer a challenge) or even difficult and when applied we can see heat loss savings of up to [url= http://www.historic-scotland.gov.uk/thermal-windows.pdf ]70%[/url] (the higher spec the window, the lower the figure) and something that isn't aesthetically detrimental to a building (quite the reverse) in my opinion.

DS - what's your take on why shutters aren't more popular in the UK?

My polish builder/plumber/solar installer mate considered importing them from Poland, but he didn't do enough research to work out the size of the market/barriers etc.

My polish builder/plumber/solar installer mate considered importing them from Poland, but he didn't do enough research to work out the size of the market/barriers etc.

don - nowt wrong at this end. I'm genuinely interested in the shutters idea. Like I say, my friend mentioned it to me 2 years ago. It made sense then, and it does in theory now. He didn't pursue it any further and set up as a renewables installer, but he still has the Polish contacts, and I think it would be a useful additional product line for him to include in the portfolio, but its not something we have traditionally had on british houses - well not in the past 100 years or so?

There must be an opportunity there though - good luck with it.

There must be an opportunity there though - good luck with it.

Accumulator tank certainly seems the way to go if you have the space and the mates to help you carry it and wide enough doors. It allowes just about everything to be connected and looses 2c in 24 hours but as you will be using it that will probably mean 1c on average.
I am against solar because we are in the UK but and they do not offer value for money AND they are no good for the environment. Nobody seems to take in the environmental investment cost. IE something that produces 25 tonnes of carbon to make and saves 1 ton a year and has a life expectancy of 20 years. I think that solar is close to those sort of figures in the UK. Double glazing is definatly more costly both in money terms and evironmental terms.
Now no one seems to take into account electric central heating even using electric radaitors which are fantasticaly well insulated nowdays and have a minimal loss of heat during the day. Also they are very very enviromentally friendly as huge amounts E7 overnight electricity is wasted ie they can't reduce output of power stations to equal use. Therfore you are in effect creating no carbon whatsoever. Even if more people used it you would be increasing the efficency of power stations.
In terms of costs LPG gives you 7.11 kw while oil gives you 10.35 kilowatts.......assuming 100% efficensy while 90% is in fact the best you can expect. My LPG costs 46.5 liter (delivery is by tanker and put into a tank in my garden). Compared to most people this is cheap a LPG price. LPG therfore cost me 7.19p per kwh. My E7 (I only have this for environmental reasons)is 6p per kw but this is a standard tarrif as I haven not changed yet to a cheaper fixed tarrif. Last year it was 3p night E7 ignoring all the money I got back at the end (63 pound and i only used 20 pound worth a month).
A friend pays 50 pound a month DD all in for his E7. despite working at home a lot. Everytime I have been there it is overly hot and he is walking round in his underwear (not a pretty site). It is 2 bed bungalow good insulation.
Now we come to wood chip no I would never touch it even, though it is cheapest. I am suspcious of where the price will be as it is becoming much more popular.
Firewood? bit dodgy this as price varies hugely around the country and can easily be much more expensive than any other form of heating. Moreover the way they sell it in terms of measurements leaves a lot to be desired 100 pound per load what kind of measurement is that? Lincolnshire is one area where I believe the cost is much higher than any other form of heating.............or is it? I have had free wood for 3 years. How did I get it? Mind your own bussiness!!!!! But it paid for the wood burner with in 2 years (no back boiler).
My choice if starting from the beginning? E7 Radiators and a wood burner. Value for money as I only have a 2 bed bungalow so I think I would be going over the top with an acumalator tank. Note if you only have electricity you cannot include the standing charge as that would be double counting. JB

http://www.stovesonline.co.uk/wood_burning_stoves/Accumulator-hot-water-tanks.html

^^ Great info. I didn't know about E7 radiators.... interesting.