MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
"is it hot enough?" "Yes, it's lovely".
"room for one more?"
😉
Looks impressive, needs some green!! You'd have a field day with some of our systems, hundreds of sensors to monitor.
On the photo of of my underfloor pumps the round grey boxes are for sensors to monitor system temps, the controller goes on the DIN rail above. It's similar to PLC process control with SCADA front end if you know control systems. Some jobs are interesting, we did the control for what I believe is the one of the largest Biomass jobs in the UK at UEA, a biomass gassification unit (a couple of stories high) produces gas for a 1.5 MW CHP unit and absorption chiller with own woodchip drier. They planted a wood to feed it! [url= http://www.uea.ac.uk/estates/CHP+leaflet ]UEA Gassifier[/url]
It's similar to PLC process control with SCADA front end if you know control systems
I dont, but damn it, if I did, my wife would sleep in another room 🙂
One of my day job projects was building a financial model for a combined heat and power biomass plant. Profit and loss, isnt nearly as interesting as kWh/tonne .... 🙂
Im planting 400+ willow stands for short rotation coppicing to help with powering mine.
Hi all, loads of info/ideas here for me to look into.
@Dobbo New place is inside the New Forest
Some pretty big systems compared to my requirements, which will be a bit more modest. I'll definitely do as much insulation as I can I'll definitely be doing thermal solar after that still very undecided
plenty to think about with regards making the best of the solar 1-2 stores/buffers?
biomass all to store or some direct to CH??
UFH too??? quick/slow start ups?
losts of ????????? but thanks all
I've got loads of time to do plenty more research/thinking
I have not read all of this but you should get a quote for ground source, no sourcing of fuel, no fuel storage, cooling as well as heating. I am not sure whether your garden is big enough for a horizontal loop but you can always have a bore hole, albeit more expensive. Link it up to solar panels to provide some of the electricity and your exposure to electricity price should be pretty limited.
GSHP was a brief thought but I don't think there's space for GSHP without bores which makes it very pricey + solar PV to make it work too even more expensive. Also as far as I know it works best with super insulated homes which we'll struggle to do due various limitations (age and construction, planning, no ducting, space and cost)
also no south facing roofs to make the most of PV
South East and South West roofs means Solar water heating is still cost effective though I think!
OK I could probably get some numbers for you if I can be bothered to read the whole thread - if not super insulated then a base load plus top up could be used. Apparently when done with CHP on a commercial scheme the numbers are staggering, whether this can be achieved in the domestic market with what is currently available I have no idea.
Prof David Mackay the scientific adviser to DECC reckons there will be 20 million heat pumps in the UK by 2050.
Méfiez-vous des chiffres ronds! (beware of round numbers)
I love it when ageing professors pull figures out of their hats for dates long after they'll be dead.
Heat pumps are great, 37% (musn't use a round number) better than burning gas domestically for the best of them in energy terms. But, big but, they still need electricity and replacing 20 million GCH units with heat pumps will bring the grid down even at currect electricity production levels. There are houses out there that simply don't need heating, one social housing programme featuresd on telly in the cold east of France went through last winter with no heating and a minimum inside temperature of 15°C (though I suspect less committed occupants would have plugged something in at 18°).
Renewing/renovating the housing stock would be my solution of preference.
Heat pumps are great, 37% (musn't use a round number) better than burning gas domestically for the best of them in energy terms. But, big but, they still need electricity and replacing 20 million GCH units with heat pumps will bring the grid down even at currect electricity production levels.
I suspect that most of the early taker up'ers will be replacing oil, bottled gas and conventional electric heating. If I had mains gas heating, I'm not sure I've seen anything to convince me to change to a heat pump, cost wise anyway.
Stoner - are you using UK sourced pellets for your boiler? Just thinking about whether you are tied to oil prices via imported pellets relying on long distance sailing.
Has anyone got forecast figures for wood chip and pellet prices given the expected surge in demand due to the RHI?
TT - yes, Im using Verdo at the moment who source local wood (Andover and somewhere in scotland). Previously I was using Balcas (enniskillen)
http://www.verdorenewables.co.uk/Products/Bagged-Wood-Pellets.aspx
Prof David Mackay the scientific adviser to DECC reckons there will be 20 million heat pumps in the UK by 2050.
what a load of hooey.
Unless the GSHP can be linked to a renewable electrical source then it's silly to use as an alternative to gas or biomass IMO.
I'm going to hear Prof MacKay lecture in Bristol next week - I'll be sure to tell him you disagree!
MacKay made some ludicrously optimistic assumptions about the efficiency of heat pumps - he was out by nearly a factor of 2 when a real-world trial reported back.
As Stoner says, they're not a worthwhile alternative to mains gas. If you don't have mains gas, they're worth looking at.
TT - ask him what he thinks the future optimum efficiency will be on GSHP and what he thinks they are now, and how we get from now to then.
I believe now its around 4 to 1 coefficient of performance. I cant believe it tops out much above 5.
Is anyone heating their house at present? 23.8°C here with no heating on(living in SW France has its advantages). Still on 100% solar hot water too though the next properly cloudy day will force use of the immersion heater.
not got the heating on, but the solar isnt doing the hot water on it's own. Need pellet boiler help. Looks like at a rate of about 20kWh a day.
rainy worcestershire aint SW France 😛
MacKay suggest coefficient of efficiency of heat pumps of 3-4 in his book, those numbers are easily achievable with a well designed heat pump system and are being achieved and surpassed in this country. Cops of 5 will be achieved. Once you chuck in a green source of electricity then the numbers are exceptional.
Remind me how does biomass provide cooling?
The question is do you want to go completely green or do you would want to be sustainable if the later heat pumps make sense especially when you throw in a cooling requirement. This is obviously not a significant part of the residential market but it is in the commercial sector.
Using low-level geothermal heat, heat pumps are already at 4.5 plus but that demands a big garden or drilling. Neither being practical in the majority of British housing so you are down to air/air heat pumps. The ones sold in my local DIY store don't beat the critical 3.3 which make them better than burning fossil fuels in a power station and suffering transmission losses. Still much better than plugging in an electrical resistance if it's cold rather than freezing outside. The performance of air/air is lousy when it's very cold though; dropping from +7°C to -7°C halfs the efficiency. Goggle [url= http://www.daikin.fr/binaries/250.DOC.ERHQ.10_tcm39-60029_tcm39-195170.pdf ]Daikin[/url] for the manufacturer's claims.
As for cooling, when are you going to need that in the UK? Even in SW France we can keep the house pleasant (two or three degrees above the lowest daily temperature) just with intelligent use of shutters and windows. In winter we can maintain the house two or three degrees above the highest daily temperature.
If you read my post, I recognised that the demand for cooling in the residential market was not a major driver, but it is in the commercial market where cooling is a key requirement.
As far as housing is concerned retrofit certainly makes most sense in the high end residential market where access/area is not an issue. That said for new housing it will be a no brainer as the collection loop can either be incorporated in or be under the foundations. On this basis, MacKay's prophecy becomes realisable in the next forty years.
Air to air works but cops are not as good as you rightly say, likewise you are right on big temperature differentials, however the UK does not suffer sufficient temperatures changes for it to be a major issue unlike Sweden which has significant uptake of heat pumps.
We have disgressed from the original post but I just wanted to reply to Stonor's balderdash.
Didn't Mackay's book suggest a pretty high reliance on that not so renewable source, nuclear power?
Anyway does anyone think the price of pellet will go up or down once the renewable heat incentive comes in proper?
How much of the existing housing stock has been replaced in the last 40 years? Not a fat lot. I think claiming 20 million homes with heat pumps by 2050 is balderdash but probably won't live to find out. I went to a planning meeting tonight about a new swimming complex for my town. Geothermal with a heat pump for energy production wasn't considered because it would have increased cost and increased the build time by 18 months (or so they claimed), and that despite perfect geological conditions. There's no political will or economic advantage so 20 million heat pumps won't happen. The standards for new homes now are pathetic compared with what can be achieved and therin lies the problem.
Retrofitting commercial property with external blinds that let low Winter sun through but keep out the higher Summer sun would eliminate the need for A/C in many cases.
I think pellet costs will remain competitive regardless of RHI takeup.
There's a relatively low cost to enter the supply market (unlike new entrants in oil, coal, nuclear, electricity etc), there's plenty of opportunity to convert waste wood into viable fuel that previously would have had no commercial value. Its also achievable on relatively small scale meaning even small timber operations can add pellet manufacturing to their business and encourage local fuel production and distribution.
Retrofitting commercial property with external blinds that let low Winter sun through but keep out the higher Summer sun would eliminate the need for A/C in many cases.
Some cases, but not many. Then you have the domestic housing stock that is woefully below the standards. It will take far more than a few blinds and shutters to improve that lot to meet the heat and cold plus increasing energy costs of the future.
Didn't Mackay's book suggest a pretty high reliance on that not so renewable source, nuclear power?
Lots of former nuclear sceptics are now accepting that nuclear can at least fill the gap in the immediate future. What else can generate that much electricity without just pushing carbon into the atmosphere? The electrification of our energy needs in the future is a massive problem that the current infrastructure (and energy sources) can't cope with.
I don't have a problem with non green sources of electricity, if you have reduced your reliance on them. That was my point of green vs sustainability.
Housing stock replacement - no idea you just have to travel by train to see how much has been built on old British Rail land.
Who said 20 million homes? I didn't and neither did the quote, it says heat pumps.
If it increased the build time by 18 months they have found someone who does not know how to manage a project - I would envisage 3-6 months on a big project, small projects should not take that much more.
We simply need to consume less and that means homes that consume next to nothing at all, not inefficient homes with A/C units.
We've had 40°C plus on occasion this year but inside the house has never been over 28°C despite minimum early morning outside temperatures of 25°C. The house has an overhanging roof. There are lots of solar panels on the south facing side to absorb as much solar energy as possible. There's 100mm of insulation between the roof chevrons, another 200mm at 90° to that before plasterboard. The roof space still gets unpleasantly warm but there's the ceiling with another 100mm of insulation and 21mm of wood to keep the living space cool.
When we bought the house it was like walking into an oven on a hot day, it now feels like walking into a railway tunnel.
We simply need to consume less and that means homes that consume next to nothing at all
and the challenge of retro-fitting almost all of the UK housing stock to achieve that is massive. There is currently no real drive from the government, the public or the building trade - so simply consuming less is a dream right now.
Edukator - efficient building is of course the better solution but where there is a demand for heat you need to do something else.
Which is why we've tried (and failed)to get the local authorities to use a heat pump and geothermal for the new pool. It's the best solution for maintaining a 50m outdoor pool at 27-29°C in Winter.
Retofitting existing homes with heat poumps is just one solution. Biomass is another but IMO the objective should be zero consumption. British houses are still being built with double glazing and no shutters. In Germany I noted houses bein built with triple glazing whilst in France double glazing with insulated shutters is the norm.
In my own home my objective is to insulate until firing up the wood burner once a day to cook the eveing meal is all the heating we need. I'm currently insulating under the floor with 100mm of recycled polyester.
ask him what he thinks the future optimum efficiency will be on GSHP and what he thinks they are now, and how we get from now to then.
I didn't get to ask a question, but he was an excellent lecturer and wasn't on for long enough. I know it isn't an answer, but he did tell us about the new standards for heat pump installations - research showed results for heat pumps were too variable and not good enough, so got better standards developed:
[url= http://www.utilityweek.co.uk/news/news_story.asp?id=195850&title=Guidelines+tightened+to+improve+heat+pump+performance ]Improving heat pump performance[/url]
Which is at least a good thing.
[img] 
[/img]
Rhat trench looks too shallow to me. I've seen them done here in France at 1m20 and Googled it to see what British installers recommend. The first [url= http://heat-pumps.highperformancehvac.com/heat-pump-types/ ]result gives 4-6 feet[/url]. At least 2/3 the height of that fence then.
My polish plumbers are just putting the final touches to the heat store installation.
Stove and load charger are fitted, Oil CH boiler has been re-routed.
Should all be up and running for the cold weather later this week 😀
pics or it didnt happen geoff.
Spangly new boiler stove - 14kw to water, 8kw to room
[url= http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6160/6207155907_28e68276ea.jp g" target="_blank">
Dinky 300l Thermal Store - shoes are models own
[url= http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6180/6207157755_242c2f3116.jp g" target="_blank">
Laddomat load charger - not completely convinced there isn't something a little snake oil-esque about it TBH
[url= http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6145/6207672476_8800bca816.jp g" target="_blank">
Panels from Kloben (don't ask!) due next week.
looking good.
not completely convinced there isn't something a little snake oil-esque about it
really? in what way?
looking good.
not completely convinced there isn't something a little snake oil-esque about it
really? in what way?
Dunno really. It's going to be useful to stop the stove acting as a heat sink once the solar circuit is fitted for sure, I just can't get my head around the advantages, once everything is up to temperature.
I'll report back after I've had a play.
It has no advnatages when everything is up to speed though, thats not what its there for.
Its to prevent chilling of the boiler through premature circulation of the water. If you chill the boiler or delay it getting up to heat then you increase the chance of flue gas condensate forming in the flue - this is corrosive stuff and ruins flues. The load controller also stops any risk of the boiler acting as a radiator in warmer weathers when the tank is hotter than the stove.
All seems to be working great and I learnt a couple of things.
1. The dial on the flu stat is really in Celsius, not Fahrenheit;
2. The stove is more than capable of running the rad and hw circuits; and
3. The boil safe valve on the heat store works 😳
any toast?
Only mrsj's nerves when the boil valve opened!
Spangly new boiler stove - 14kw to water, 8kw to room
Is that both at the same time, i.e. total output 22kw? That's some heat, what size is it, I take it you'll be using coal or it'll be a full time job keeping it stoked?
[img] 
[/img]
Is that both at the same time, i.e. total output 22kw? That's some heat, what size is it, I take it you'll be using coal or it'll be a full time job keeping it stoked?
Oops no, its 20kw (only 12 to boiler). I'm burning a mix of seasoned hard and softwood. Only used it for the first time last night, but it didn't seem too bad on wood. It has a vent thermostat which cuts the draw down once the water in the boiler is up to temp, so it burns quite slowly once everything is up to temperature.
It's this one - [url= http://www.stovesareus.co.uk/catalog/aarrow-ecoboiler-seb20-multifuel-woodburning-boiler-stove-p-4919.html ]linky[/url]
nice looking box that geoff.
Oops no, its 20kw (only 12 to boiler). I'm burning a mix of seasoned hard and softwood. Only used it for the first time last night, but it didn't seem too bad on wood.
20Kw and 41,000btu 😯 Wow, seriously? It's not much bigger than my Clearview vision 500 and that 'only' produces 8Kw and 10,000btu - how do they do that??
I can't help but feel that it's going to take some serious stoking to produce those figures 😐
I can't help but feel that it's going to take some serious stoking to produce those figures
Mebe - but as I managed to boil the heat store last night without really trying, I'm impressed so far.
The best bit about that stove is that I didn't have to re-route the flu and incur £500 worth of stove fitting bills as a result. It just slotted in almost exactly (had to take the t-piece up 15mm) where the old one was 8)
nice looking box that geoff.
+1
Good thread this one 8)
I managed to boil the heat store last night without really trying, I'm impressed so far
Nice one! Don't forget that the base water temp at the moment is a fair bit higher than it will be in February. Keep us updated on how you get on with it - it makes interesting reading.
We live in a 1950's ex-farmhouse that is currently running oil CH and a stove (for the last 12 months). The boiler is pretty old and at some point will need replacing. This thread has been very educational about what alternatives are available. We're lucky in that the house faces south so PV would be OK, we also have a number of paddocks so GSHP is also an option.
I'm going to hold off for as long as possible before making any changes though as I'm hoping there will be some big advances in alternative heat sources over the next few years.
I'd echo what edukator has said [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/biomasssolar-eco-experts-advice-sought-stoner/page/3#post-2984013 ]here[/url]. Having worked with A/c I was biased towards its usage in commercial buildings, but I can not see any practical application in domestic use. It simply doesn't get hot enough in the UK to justify. If the internal temperature does increase to uncomfortable levels it's probably due to the rather large windows we seem to use and the solar heat gain. Solution? Ceiling fans, but this increases consumption and again I agree with edukator in that reducing consumption is the way forward. We need something that will block the sun on those rare sunny days to keep the temperature down, yet we'll want that sunlight on cold winter days and something to prevent heat loss at night through that large window area.
Edukator again has the experience of both significantly higher temperatures and the usage of insulated shutters. With regard to widespread usage in the UK from my point of view new installations are the way forward, but the retro-fitting isn't necessarily impossible (bay windows offer a challenge) or even difficult and when applied we can see heat loss savings of up to [url= http://www.historic-scotland.gov.uk/thermal-windows.pdf ]70%[/url] (the higher spec the window, the lower the figure) and something that isn't aesthetically detrimental to a building (quite the reverse) in my opinion.
DS - what's your take on why shutters aren't more popular in the UK?
My polish builder/plumber/solar installer mate considered importing them from Poland, but he didn't do enough research to work out the size of the market/barriers etc.
My polish builder/plumber/solar installer mate considered importing them from Poland, but he didn't do enough research to work out the size of the market/barriers etc.
I imagine he was faced with the typically superior attitude and equally lazy British worker. I imagine he can't unterstand how British companies can work when they are faced with public sector attitudes in the private sector and the level of ignorance of companies that claim to offer services yet don't even have the courtesy to respond. I'm still waiting for a reply from your mates!
I also have to ask if I have done something to offend you geoffj? As you seem to be on a bit of a mission and can't help but have a pop at me. Interesting attitude for someone who is starting out in the business world offering to share their knowledge and experience helping start ups, don't you think?
don - nowt wrong at this end. I'm genuinely interested in the shutters idea. Like I say, my friend mentioned it to me 2 years ago. It made sense then, and it does in theory now. He didn't pursue it any further and set up as a renewables installer, but he still has the Polish contacts, and I think it would be a useful additional product line for him to include in the portfolio, but its not something we have traditionally had on british houses - well not in the past 100 years or so?
There must be an opportunity there though - good luck with it.
There must be an opportunity there though - good luck with it.
Clearly there's an opportunity (or 20 million opportunities) and there's a reason why there isn't an uptake in the UK. The good news is that you are already in possession of the reason why there isn't an uptake.
Edukator knows the benefits and your Polish friend knows the benefits and the benefits that each of them see are different, and they know the benefits because of experience.
If your Polish friend want some more info on entering the market, for a small consultancy fee...
Accumulator tank certainly seems the way to go if you have the space and the mates to help you carry it and wide enough doors. It allowes just about everything to be connected and looses 2c in 24 hours but as you will be using it that will probably mean 1c on average.
I am against solar because we are in the UK but and they do not offer value for money AND they are no good for the environment. Nobody seems to take in the environmental investment cost. IE something that produces 25 tonnes of carbon to make and saves 1 ton a year and has a life expectancy of 20 years. I think that solar is close to those sort of figures in the UK. Double glazing is definatly more costly both in money terms and evironmental terms.
Now no one seems to take into account electric central heating even using electric radaitors which are fantasticaly well insulated nowdays and have a minimal loss of heat during the day. Also they are very very enviromentally friendly as huge amounts E7 overnight electricity is wasted ie they can't reduce output of power stations to equal use. Therfore you are in effect creating no carbon whatsoever. Even if more people used it you would be increasing the efficency of power stations.
In terms of costs LPG gives you 7.11 kw while oil gives you 10.35 kilowatts.......assuming 100% efficensy while 90% is in fact the best you can expect. My LPG costs 46.5 liter (delivery is by tanker and put into a tank in my garden). Compared to most people this is cheap a LPG price. LPG therfore cost me 7.19p per kwh. My E7 (I only have this for environmental reasons)is 6p per kw but this is a standard tarrif as I haven not changed yet to a cheaper fixed tarrif. Last year it was 3p night E7 ignoring all the money I got back at the end (63 pound and i only used 20 pound worth a month).
A friend pays 50 pound a month DD all in for his E7. despite working at home a lot. Everytime I have been there it is overly hot and he is walking round in his underwear (not a pretty site). It is 2 bed bungalow good insulation.
Now we come to wood chip no I would never touch it even, though it is cheapest. I am suspcious of where the price will be as it is becoming much more popular.
Firewood? bit dodgy this as price varies hugely around the country and can easily be much more expensive than any other form of heating. Moreover the way they sell it in terms of measurements leaves a lot to be desired 100 pound per load what kind of measurement is that? Lincolnshire is one area where I believe the cost is much higher than any other form of heating.............or is it? I have had free wood for 3 years. How did I get it? Mind your own bussiness!!!!! But it paid for the wood burner with in 2 years (no back boiler).
My choice if starting from the beginning? E7 Radiators and a wood burner. Value for money as I only have a 2 bed bungalow so I think I would be going over the top with an acumalator tank. Note if you only have electricity you cannot include the standing charge as that would be double counting. JB
http://www.stovesonline.co.uk/wood_burning_stoves/Accumulator-hot-water-tanks.html
^^ Great info. I didn't know about E7 radiators.... interesting.
Are these electric radiators what I would recognise as the old storage heaters? Charge them up over night and let the heat trickle out during the day, kind of thing?
I wonder if heat-pumps heat output gets higher if a heat pump running overnight on E7 charging a thermal store (+feeding rads/UF) would be viable, it must make more sense than E7 radiators or storage heaters due to the COP?
I did some work years ago at John Lewis on Oxford Street where they had large tanks that they would freeze overnight on E7 to use for the AC during the day time and keep the chillers off.
Isn't the main problem with the E7/storage heaters the lack of control? You'd need to keep on top of the weather forecast on the previous 24 hours so that you'd know when to charge them and when not to, equally how much to charge them too. While the bills were cheap and the house warm, I often found it too warm and had to open windows, which isn't very efficient.
Isn't the main problem with the E7/storage heaters the lack of control?
Defo, plus they are ugly great things (from memory), if you had room for a thermal store a heat pump on E7 would help eliminate the control problem and be nicer in the living space plus better efficiency. just need to get the heat output up on them, but I think they are heading that way.
Waiting for nonk's mate to give me a price for a Windhager biomass boiler. Been waiting a while. They seem *quite* relaxed . . .
That what I've got, you going for pellet or log?
I was shown a double pellet boiler windhager set up this weekend at a mates.
Its in a block of 6x flats with a 1500L thermal store. Very nicely installed too - wouldnt believe how packed into such a small space it is. Originally they were planning 2x different fuel boilers - one pellet, one gas. Not sure why they went with 2x pellet in the end. with the 1500L buffer I reckon a single 28kW boiler would have coped instead of 2x28=56kW!
Might have a pic on my phone which Ill put up in a bit.
We've already done the energy payback time for PV panels and solar hot water heaters on STW, SD253. The payback is a year to three years for PV in Europe depending on latitude and panel type, not the 20 years you claim. The payback on thermal solar is even faster.
I'm currently getting 255kWh/year per Solar World panel. In 20 years they'll produce over 4.7 megawatt hours each assuming a pessimistic performance deterioration. Do you really think it takes 4.7 MWh to mine the materials and manufature one little panel you can pick up with ease? I doubt it costs much more energy than digging/firing/transporting the roof tiles it replaces.
An air/air heat pump working at -7°C still beats any form of E7 electrical resistance heater in terms of COP so you are better off using a heat pump even on night tarif. With a low-temperature geothermal heat pump then a COP of 4.5 is currently achievable. Why favour something with a COP of 1?
Pellets hopefully. The windhager seemed the best for a straight replacement for an oil boiler. Alternative was a pallezetti (?) which would need a buffer (and mean we'd have to lose our 2yr old non-vented hot water) whereas the Windhager can cope with the variable demands in the same way as a regular boiler can.
Must get back to them and chivvy!
don simon - Member
Are these electric radiators what I would recognise as the old storage heaters? Charge them up over night and let the heat trickle out during the day, kind of thing?
Yes apart from letting the heat out as they are highly insulated of course they must let the heat out but over much longer period of time. Note the insulation varies you have pick how high an insulation you want and they still have the bricks in them.
don simon - Member
Isn't the main problem with the E7/storage heaters the lack of control? You'd need to keep on top of the weather forecast on the previous 24 hours so that you'd know when to charge them and when not to, equally how much to charge them too. While the bills were cheap and the house warm, I often found it too warm and had to open windows, which isn't very efficient.
As stated they are much more controlable nowadays (not my views but of those who have it). Although you have a point about the weather forecast you still have to take into account the excellent insulation which means a latge proportion of the heat could be used the next day.
I often found it too warm and had to open windows, which isn't very efficient.
That view implies that your radiators were very old and not very controlable but despite this you are saying it was cheap to run!!!!!! Also as I stated huge amounts of electricity as lost at night. So much so in fact that they have dug lakes at the bottom and top of mountains in Wales and dug the centre of the mountains out and put turbines in. At night they pump the water from the bottom lake to the top lake and drop it down through the turbines at peak times. Now that shows just how much spare capacity they have at night?
Edukator - Member
We've already done the energy payback time for PV panels and solar hot water heaters on STW, SD253. The payback is a year to three years for PV in Europe depending on latitude and panel type, not the 20 years you claim. The payback on thermal solar is even faster.
I claimed nothing of the sort merely giving an example of the failure to take into account investment cost to the environment,
I'm currently getting 255kWh/year per Solar World panel. In 20 years they'll produce over 4.7 megawatt hours each assuming a pessimistic performance deterioration. Do you really think it takes 4.7 MWh to mine the materials and manufature one little panel you can pick up with ease?
Again as you are full aware I was giving an example and did not relate directly to solar per se. Why you are lying is beyond me.
]Yet again I was not talking about a heat pump.......what was the point of saying I was?An air/air heat pump working at -7°C still beats any form of E7 electrical resistance heater in terms of COP so you are better off using a heat pump even on night tarif. With a low-temperature geothermal heat pump then a COP of 4.5 is currently achievable. Why favour something with a COP of 1?
Edukator - Member
We've already done the energy payback time for PV panels and solar hot water heaters on STW, SD253. The payback is a year to three years for PV in Europe depending on latitude and panel type, not the 20 years you claim. The payback on thermal solar is even faster.
I claimed nothing of the sort merely giving an example of the failure to take into account investment cost to the environment, Again as you are fully aware I was giving an example and did not relate directly to solar per se. Note if you got pay back in 3 years everyone would have one. Even using a feed in tariff no company I have checked with suggested you would get your money back in 3 never mind 1 year. And that was with a feed in tariff of 40p electricity should not be hard to find at 12p. I hope you understand what I am saying??
SD253:
I am against solar because we are in the UK but and they do not offer value for money AND they are no good for the environment. Nobody seems to take in the environmental investment cost. IE something that produces 25 tonnes of carbon to make and saves 1 ton a year and has a life expectancy of 20 years.
Care to apologise for calling me a liar.
Edukator - Member
SD253:
I am against solar because we are in the UK but and they do not offer value for money AND they are no good for the environment. Nobody seems to take in the environmental investment cost. IE something that produces 25 tonnes of carbon to make and saves 1 ton a year and has a life expectancy of 20 years.Care to apologise for calling me a liar.
Let me think about it......... no pr*ck Yet again I was giving an example of the failure to take in the investment cost. Now after considering your belief that you can get back your investment in 1 year that is a belief that you think everyone who is on this site is thick. I DO NOT BELIEVE YOU. AND I HAVE CHECKED WITH FIRMS WHO HAVE SAID THE SAME. YOU ARE TALKING SHITE. As a matter of interest does anyone think they can get there money back in 1 year
The payback is a year to three years for PV in Europe depending on latitude and panel type
in 1 year you can get your money back??? Stop taking drugs there bad for you!! Before you report me I would stress that was joke.....Honest
SD-253
He means carbon payback, not cash. Here are further details to back his point and refute your timescales:
[url= http://info.cat.org.uk/questions/pv/what-energy-and-carbon-payback-time-pv-panels-uk ]http://info.cat.org.uk/questions/pv/what-energy-and-carbon-payback-time-pv-panels-uk[/url]
There is spare capacity at night in the grid - largely because we're generating that electricity from burning coal and oil. Ultimately we will run out of them and need other forms of energy, like solar and wind.
not really adding anything more than insults and a short fuse to what was an informative thread there SD253, are you?
You talked about carbon so I talked about carbon, SD-253.
If you wish to talk about financial payback we can. My own PV system is on target to pay for itself in 6.5 years thanks to a generous feed-in tarif when I signed the contract.
My solar thermal will take longer to pay for itself: 11-12 years based on a conservative estimate of gas/electricity saved of 95e a year and a total cost of 1100e. Since the middle of April I've only had to switch the immersion heater on twice (when we had guests). Depending on the weather, the sun provides all of our hot water for 5-6 months, most of it for another three months and still makes some contribution in the coldest, darkest months.
You get about 25% less solar radiation in the southern UK but even with a corresponding increase in financial payback times both PV and solar thermal are viable.
Edukator - MemberYou talked about carbon so I talked about carbon, SD-253.If you wish to talk about financial payback we can. My own PV system is on target to pay for itself in 6.5 years thanks to a generous feed-in tarif when I signed the contract.
My solar thermal will take longer to pay for itself: 11-12 years based on a conservative estimate of gas/electricity saved of 95e a year and a total cost of 1100e. Since the middle of April I've only had to switch the immersion heater on twice (when we had guests). Depending on the weather, the sun provides all of our hot water for 5-6 months, most of it for another three months and still makes some contribution in the coldest, darkest months.
You get about 25% less solar radiation in the southern UK but even with a corresponding increase in financial payback times both PV and solar thermal are viable.
You said 1 to 3 year not 6. Further more as you are getting 4 times the electtric selling cost ie 40p not 10p. Then 4 x 6 = 24years before payback without the ludicrous feed in tariff. You have now changed the environmetal payback to 24years. Are you on drugs or something ENVIRONMENTAL FEEDBCK 24 YEARS. The fact is you are ripping off other electricity users by significantly increasing there bills
Is this the 3 year payback???????My solar thermal will take longer to pay for itself: 11-12 years based
Does it make you feel good when you have your friends round for a dinner party to tell them how you are saving the world by significantly increasing the cost of electricity for those who cannot aford to buy this fake environmental goods. I am talking of course about the working class and the retired.
As far aas I am concerened you are a typical greedy grabbing member of the Liberal (so called) middle class who pays lip service to the environment.
TooTall - Member
SD-253He means carbon payback, not cash. Here are further details to back his point and refute your timescales:
http://info.cat.org.uk/questions/pv/what-energy-and-carbon-payback-time-pv-panels-uk
There is spare capacity at night in the grid - largely because we're generating that electricity from burning coal and oil. Ultimately we will run out of them and need other forms of energy, like solar and wind.
Yes you are right if you steal of the poor you can get a quick feedback. You do know that last year (january) the variation in electricity production for windpower was 1 mega watt to 124 megawatt. Therefore at all times a gas powered station is running in the background...............windpower.......junk
SD - my post supports the short embodied energy claims fully. Stop arguing with a man in France over his feed in - you are not paying for it.
How do we get the UK off carbon and kick start renewables without subsidies?
Edited to add - you wanted the embodied energy payback figures (not cash payback) - I gave them. Nothing to do with subsidies.
Given that Wind production avoids turning on some of the most expensive contracted gas-fired electricty during demand peaks then it saves the consumer money.
When Spain"s windmills are running well they can turn off all the gas stations.
I said 1-3 years for to quote myself "energy payback".
Please don't misquote me SD253. I'm very carefull to read what you say and quote you accurately.
Edukator - Member
Given that Wind production avoids turning on some of the most expensive contracted gas-fired electricty during demand peaks then it saves the consumer money.When Spain"s windmills are running well they can turn off all the gas stations.
Rubbish there is always gas powered stations running in the background. Windfarms are never that reliable. The weather forecast can say winds of 30kmh and windmills can still stop as there is break in the wind. Are you saying that Spain at times runs entirely on wind?
"I said 1-3 years for to quote myself "energy payback" You quote yourself? No I don't get that are you saying you get your money back in 1-3 years or carbon payback. Either way I don't believe you. By the way you are not very carefull to read what I say and quote me accuaretly.Edukator - Member
I said 1-3 years for to quote myself "energy payback".Please don't misquote me SD253. I'm very carefull to read what you say and quote you accurately.
Why wind production be at its highest during peak needs? If they can supply during peak needs they would not need gas at all?Edukator - Member
Given that Wind production avoids turning on some of the most expensive contracted gas-fired electricty during demand peaks then it saves the consumer money