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I'm thinking of dusting off my old vinyl collection and maybe even investing in a few more.
I need the best turntable money can buy. For £300.
I used to own a Pro-Ject Debut III and loved it, and having not looked for a number of years I now see they do a similar model with carbon tone arm - and its even available in my favourite lurid green colour scheme.
Anyone got/like/hate the same model?
I know very little about turntables, please be gentle.
Rega Planar 3?
Project are very good, if you're buying new I'd just go with that. Remember you'll need a phono stage if your amp doesn't have one and most importantly a nice level wall shelf to put the deck on. Many people never set their decks up properly which is a shame.
ooh, that Rega also comes in a funky array of colours, and has a nice look to it.
Does it compare well with a Debut?
I have a Pro-ject and is very good and under your budget too.
http://www.sevenoakssoundandvision.co.uk/p/pro-ject-genie-3turntable?gclid=CMD4iJK677QCFe_MtAod4TAAmQ&gclid=CMD4iJK677QCFe_MtAod4TAAmQ
Rega are one of the most underrated HiFi companies out there. They make astonishingly good kit for the money. The Planar has long been regarded as one of the best turntable ranges for many years, so yes, it compares favourably to anything else at the price but really you need to listen to decide how favourably.
1210 MkII.
The best turntable which, coincidentally, can be had for that sort of money.
I've had a Planar 3 for some 15 years. It's a proper piece of kit and unless I could suddenly afford a Linn I will happily stick with it for another 15 years.
+1 for planar 3. I have a secondhand one with RB300 and Ortofon M2 Red. Sounds great!
Yep, Rega are spot on. Good kit.
Now, more importantly, what mains lead are you going to get?
The more I look, the more I like the Planar.. will go book myself in for a test spin somewhere.
As it happens, I have my mains supply channeled in from Spain. Gives a warmer sound.
willard - Member1210 MkII.
The best turntable which, coincidentally, can be had for that sort of money.
OUT!
As it happens, I have my mains supply channeled in from Spain. Gives a warmer sound.
Boom, tish!
Rega are one of the most underrated HiFi companies out there
Along with Creek I think.
And Croft.
On the Rega the RB250 is a better arm than the RB300 apparently, or has more potential. It's is down to the bearing arrangement.
you can later get the arm modded here:
willard - Member1210 MkII.
The best turntable which, coincidentally, can be had for that sort of money.
OUT!
However, a Technics SP10 might be a contender.
On the Rega the RB250 is a better arm than the RB300 apparently, or has more potential. It's is down to the bearing arrangement.you can later get the arm modded here:
you see, now youve told me that my inner geek is geeting all excited. Despite me not really having a clue what you are talking about
This is going to get expensive. Isn't it?
This is going to get expensive. Isn't it?
Depends, but a tt with an RB250 gives you a better option of upgrading it later if you ever want.
[I will be buying one of those audiomod arms myself]
This is only a little over you budget but is rather lovely:
The end of the arm is damped by the trough of oil - apparently very effectively.
the cartridge plays through the oil filled trough?..
no - there is a paddle from the end of the arm into the oil filled trough, the arm works as usual but the oil is suppossed to damp the arm vibrations.
A bit like what audiomods are trying to do with all those holes drilled in the arm.
Of course, you could go classic and try and find a second hand TT of higher original quality - even an old Linn might just be found lurking for the right price - and then it's like bikes - you can upgrade as you go.......
My LP12 is lovely. Clearly better even though ill matched ancilliarys in a very small room, whilst badly placed, over my fairly expensive and more modern Arcam CD Player.
yes, I also love the idea of ressurecting a retro classic, but dont really know where to start.
Ive heard Linn are highly rated, but theres a daunting amount of info/rubbish out there
Another Planar 3/ortofon 2m red lover here - the Audi of SingleTurntableWorld
It was a real pleasure resurrecting it and listening to it again
whats a good condition LP12 worth then? and new?
Dunlop Systemdek with Linn Basik tone arm & Grado GT super cartridge in excellent condition for sale if you're interested.
New rega P3 within budget:
Wall shelf:
those ribbed cork mats make a very good upgrade to the felt mat that sits on the glass platter of the rega. Quite an improvement.
Do you want a new one or would you mind 2nd hand?
I decided to go down the 2nd hand route and picked up a lovely Michell turntable which came with a modified RB250 arm. It's a really really nice set up not only does it sound fantastic it looks great.
Worth doing a bit of hunting around...
thats the problem, I have no idea what to even look for, im sure your Michell is lovely but I dont know my Michell from my Grant.
otherwise would happily entertain 2nd hand.
loving the look of RP3 and RP6, as well a Linn LP12
those ribbed cork mats make a very good upgrade to the felt mat that sits on the glass platter of the rega. Quite an improvement.
whats the most obvious difference when using one?
speaking of Michell, this looks nice. whats it worth?
The sound is much more defined and 'tighter'.
One of the many issues with turntables is the platter and reflections back through it.
As the needle is 'bouncing' around within the grooves it generates vibrations which travel back up into the arm and down into the platter.
Hence the arm is important and expensive arms may be made of exotic materials (magnesium in an SME V), will have very tightly toleranced bearings, and be shaped to avoid getting excited by these vibrations, as it is supposed to hold the cartridge still whilst the armature follows the grove. This is why that Townshend TT used that oil trough, to damp any vibrations in the arm.
Vibrations into the platter should also not be reflected back to the cartridge, so expensive turntables might have acrylic platters, highly toleranced bearings, clamps, etc.
The cork seems to work a lot better than the felt mat at 'sinking' these vibrations.
I had a Manticore Mantra, which is like a Rega 3 on steriods (thicker platter, suspended design) and tried a Ringmat developments cork mat ( http://www.ringmat.com/products/storyofringmat.htm) and it was a lot better than the felt mat that was on the Manticore.
The Ringmat only uses a few rings of cork, so I don't know how the complete mats, like the Project one, compare - I would guess not as well.
A Rega R3 on a wall shelf will be a straightforward solution. An LP12 at a low budget might not be such a pleasing solution, and an upgraded one might demand a better phone stage than you might want to give it, especially if you go the moving coil cartridge route. Plus you need to know how best to set it up - suspended design tables are often picky about that.
A 2nd hand Rega R3 might also be a good buy as they are simple and hold their value well, a cheap LP12 might not be so desirable as it is normal to have an LP12 with all the upgrades.
Here's one of the cheaper Michells, sporting a record clamp and an RB250 (whether the cork mat would offer an improvement on one of these is another matter):
These are the modern Michells:
http://www.walrus.co.uk/michell/michell.html
Notice how the arm at the bottom is a derivation of the RB250 arm.
(Walrus is a great place and they know their turntables - normally they have a 2nd hand page on their site)
cheers TG. i spotted that glass plinth Michell earlier, its not so far away from me for collection. Worth the asking price or too fidly for a beginner?
I think a Planar/P3/RP3 or Debut carbon might be the ticket
A second hand rega planner 3 is always going to be a good buy. Look for a good one and you will not lose much if you decide to move it on. I have one of the older ones with the r200 arm and it is very good.
An alternative would be a Thorens TD 150 MKII, harder to find a good example, and you may or may not like its styling.
Personally I would avoid project TT but for no other reason than Rega's are easier to move on.
I think the Michell might be a better TT but it needs more looking after - it is a suspended design so the springs wear out and you might need to fiddle with the springs to get the best performance - on my manticore you could rotate one of the springs and the resonance damping of the turntable would change quite a bit.
The Rega has no suspension which is why you want to put it on a wall shelf.
Demand for the Rega might be more as they are more well known - so buying a 2nd hand one means that you wouldn't lose much selling it for an upgrade later. You just need to ensure that the main bearing and tonearm bearings are in good shape and nice and tight.
Plus you will need to buy a cartridge possibly, the wall shelf and maybe a phone stage if your amp doesn't have one.
[If you want to upgrade later you can do things to the tonearm and also add a better power supply.]
So the Michell will blow your budget - although it does look good and may be more acceptable to the wife, depending on where you are putting it.
How good is the rest of your system?
Cambridge Audio 540 Amp, would probably go for a CA Azur phono stage but happy to take advice.
Deffo going to invest in a wall shelf, the Rega ones look particularly nice.
An alternative would be a Thorens TD 150 MKII, harder to find a good example, and you may or may not like its styling.
hubba hubba, thats a fine looking table!
oh boy this is not an easy choice. Can I feasibly just collect turntables instead?!
Quick google suggests the Rega Fono or Fono Mini are better. This Fono Mini has an ADC and outputs the signal to USB, so easy to digitise your LPs!
If you don't need the ADC then maybe there is a cheaper Fono Mini without it?
Your should only look for MM (moving magnet) input on the phono stage, MC (moving coil) cartridges are more money and more demanding of the TT, arm, and phono stage, so you would want a more expensive phono stage if you went for an MC cartridge later anyway.
The Rega P3 will probably sound excellent - if you had a really good amp and phono stage you might hear it's limitations, but beware the viscous upgrade circle that can leave you enjoying music less but spending more on kit.
but beware the viscous upgrade circle that can leave you enjoying music less but spending more on kit.
and theres the rub..
I mainly listen to 60s/70s rock, Bowie, and 90's stuff like Faith No More, Beck etc. Oh, and a nice dose of metal with a measure of funk/soul.
I prefer excellent bass response, and depth in stage. I hate turning up my fave bits for it to all start blending together and losing control.
Alas, I do not really know where to invest the lions share of the dosh. Turntable, speaker cable, speakers, amp?
I have to admit to shedding a tear when I first set up my Debut 3 and played my first LP.. Dark Side of the Moon. The sound from my Mission 773's and CA 540 amp was superb to my uneducated ears and I was blown away at how good it all sounded.
Any improvement on that system will have me shedding man tears again.
I think I might have an old Planar 2 in the loft with a Planar3 motor fitted. Arm needs a service cos the bearing is a bit gubbed I think. Might have a Linn K18 cartridge on it, possibly also needing service/bin!
Really selling it aren't I! Anyway, yours for a random charitable donation of your choice if you could collect from Salisbury. Let me know and I'll see if I can find it. I know there's an LP12 chassis up there, but that's got no arm or PS...
Spend no more than this on the speaker cable:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380173053340&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT
[I have some of the blue stuff but black looks a bit better...]
and this for the interconnect:
[I also have this and can't tell any difference to some expensive Musical Fidelity stuff]
A turntable will always demand a lot of the dosh because there are so many mechanical parts to it to affect the performance.
Quality source is most important - if you spend a lot on amp and speakers you can just hear problems in the source.
Of course, of the mid price tt - if a Rega is the sort of thing, then if you can't find a pretty old, un-upgraded lp12, a Linn Axis is still probably in the price range, or certainly a Linn Basik. Expect the Axis to come with an Akito Arm which was pretty good for the cash, or a Basik with a Linn Lvx.
My first TT was a See Corp Revolver, which is as good as a planar 2, and sold to my friends parents, still doing sterling service.
And even a Pink Triangle "Little pink thing" might be within the price band.
Even a Dual 505 II might not be a bad start, given it should be very affordable these days.
The Rega Planar 3 is definitely the best in your £300 budget. The RB300 arm it comes with is a stunning arm and can be improved to a level where it matches arms costing well over a £1,000. I had the Origin Live Mk3 which is a modded RB300 arm and it was brilliant and matched my Ittok LVII easily which sonically is very very high rated. The RB250 accepts lots and lots of upgrades so is essentially a better buy than the RB300 but you've got to have equally good separates to notice these improvements.
For £300 you'd be very very lucky to find a decent LP12 with arm and cart, in fact I'd say no chance really and what you may find at that price will be very old, need lots of attention (money) and will be sonically shitte. The Rega will sound better situated on a shelf on a wall, preferably a brick wall and not a plaster board one as the sound waves will affect it. A Linn works well on a table, something like a Sound Organisation one but these cost and so need to be added to your budget.
If it was me I'd go with the Rega. Then upgrade it slowly and cheaply with things like the counter-weight balance and maybe a new acrylic platter when funds allow. Have fun and remember to let your ears decide and NOT journo's or friends who only recommend their own stuff.
Admittedly an LP12 of that vintage may be a bit tired - its like cars, or bikes - whats the mileage. Mind you, mine's a pre 85 spec, had all the upgrades to to (but excluding the corner plinth bracing). And it was markedly better than a new planar 3 back then. Indeed, I prefered the Linn Axis to the Planar 3, and the Axis was a fair bit inferior to the LP12 of that vintage.
OFC the present Sondek is a long way from a vintage LP12, but thats the joy, you could actually rebuild it/service it yourself, with s/h bits of the bay, in a way you'd never dream of doing with a new item.
My lp12 came with an Ittok LVII, (Valhalla) and were I to pop it on the bay, I'd be lucky to get £400 for it, so it's certainly achievable if the OP waits a while. And even a 30 year old Sondek line mine is a cracking listen......... it cost a whole terms student grant back then!
Rega carts are mediocre,worth getting something else ASAP ortofon, grado, shure, sumiko, clearaudio etc
Use a sumiko blue point special on mine but something like an ortofon 2mRed would be a good start.
more great advice, thanks all.
Its great hearing the same models and parts cropping up.
Have dozens of tables on watch from the bay now (including a little pink thing) so will be great to see what I may end up with. Moving to new property in March (detached) so will be fixing via shelf to solid wall.
Record fair tomorrow morning for me!
curse the snow, record fair cancelled!
Had a chance to see a Debut Carbon in the flesh at Sevenoaks Hifi. Nice looking tone arm, but you can clearly tell where its been built to a price point. Sharp edges and plasticy bits.
Still fancy hearing one, but starting to like the idea of buying a mint 2nd hand higher spec version. Very tempted to break the budget slightly for a lovely Planar 25!