You are Kaesae and I claim my £5.
I'm pretty sure he isn't.
not 100% cougar?
If I remember correctly one of the key points was more to do with how long the average alternative consult last, up to an hour in some cases where somebody takes the time to listen to you, make you feel special etc. the positive mental support can make people feel much better and when dealing with a lot of modern minor medical complaints (viral infections etc. that are not treatable by antibiotics just time) you can leave feeling good and take some thing that magically cures what time would cure.
RE the guardian link:
The facts, it seems, are being ignored.
Or in this case, skewed.
By the end of 2009, 142 randomised control trials (the gold standard in medical research) comparing homeopathy with placebo or conventional treatment had been published in peer-reviewed journals
A staggeringly low amount of trials over 59 years.
74 were able to draw firm conclusions: 63 were positive for homeopathy and 11 were negative. Five major systematic reviews have also been carried out to analyse the balance of evidence from RCTs of homeopathy – four were positive (Kleijnen, J, et al; Linde, K, et al; Linde, K, et al; Cucherat, M, et al) and one was negative (Shang, A et al). It's usual to get mixed results when you look at a wide range of research results on one subject, and if these results were from trials measuring the efficacy of "normal" conventional drugs, ratios of 63:11 and 4:1 in favour of a treatment working would be considered pretty persuasive.
What about the other 68 studies? 'Statistically non-conclusive' - so 68 studies found there was no difference between placebos or usual/no treatment (not split out unfortunately)?
Also the report she linked to recommends:
New and independently conducted RCTs are essential to confirm or refute the currently available
research evidence in homeopathy for specific conditions. There is a need to enhance the quantity and
the quality of research on the effectiveness of individualised homeopathy, particularly in chronic
conditions, as well as on efficacy of specific homeopathic medicines compared with placebo. Future
trials must be statistically powered to ensure conclusions may be made about clinically relevant
effects.
Nice try though.
> You are Kaesae and I claim my £5.I'm pretty sure he isn't.
I've spoken to my contact at Section 5 and he gave me a couple of surveillance stills.
6079smithw looks nothing like kaesae:
What do you give a homeopath for Christmas?
An empty box with the memory of the chocolates it once contained.
Anyhoo, let me reach over and find that Cochrane Review proving the efficacy of Homeopathy.......nope not here....nope not there either......must have been eaten by that unicorn.
Drug companies could easily make money from homeopathy if they wanted to. I can go to Boots and buy it, so someone already is making money.
There are loads of drugs being made and sold that are outside of copyright/patent. The only things any of our family has been prescribed since we've been together are amoxycillin, cocodamol and iron supplements, with other suggestions being paracetamol and ibuprofen. Pretty sure the GP wasn't getting pressure from big pharma to prescribe that stuff.
So the whole 'homeopathy is suppressed because drug companies won't make money' is bollocks.
Homeopathy is "drug" companies making money just the "drug " companies in question make and sell homeopathic products. Given the mark up on what is essentially water specialty treated by shaking it their proffits are huge hence the money and effort homeopaths put in to suing and gagging those who point out the lack of any actual. Evidence base for their claims.
you cycnics clearly one lot are evil sellers of drugs with no benefit to mankind and the others are evil sellers of drugs with no benefit to mankind
I know which lot I would choose to use were I ill though the morality of both lots is questionable
http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/a-kind-of-magic/
Like this line from it in particular:
With alternative therapists, when you point out a problem with the evidence, people don’t engage with you about it, or read and reference your work. They get into a huff. They refuse to answer calls or email queries. They wave their hands and mutter sciencey words such as “quantum” and “nano”. They accuse you of being a paid plant from some big pharma conspiracy. They threaten to sue you. They shout, “What about thalidomide, science boy?”, they cry, they call you names, they hold lectures at their trade fairs about how you are a dangerous doctor, they contact and harass your employer, they try to dig up dirt from your personal life, or they actually threaten you with violence (this has all happened to me, and I’m compiling a great collection of stories for a nice documentary, so do keep it coming).
Seems we're about halfway there at the moment, so I'll get the biscuits.
molgrips - MemberDrug companies could easily make money from homeopathy if they wanted to. I can go to Boots and buy it, so someone already is making money.
They do, in fact. But yeah, you can't fight paranoid claims about big pharma this way. Obviously they could make more money selling homeopathy than real medicine- it costs essentially nothing to produce, and you can sell it for more since by definition your main customer base is gullible. So just follow the money
What control is there on homeopathic drugs? If you're being sold a C30 dilution, what's to stop them conning you with an under strength C29 dilution?
A C30 Dilution, as advocated by Hahnemann for most purposes:on average, this would require giving two billion doses per second to six billion people for 4 billion years to deliver a single molecule of the original material to any patient.
.
Although, as mrsmith says.....
.
Anyway, back to homeopathy. It works.
.
So I'm really not sure which of those two quotes to believe 😉
.
Of course there is [url= http://www.i-sis.org.uk/electromagneticSignalsFromHIV.php ]science[/url] behind it. As an aside, the evil pharmaceutical empires have extended the life expectancy of a newly diagnosed HIV patient by a mere trifle (40 years).
As an aside, the evil pharmaceutical empires have extended the life expectancy of a newly diagnosed HIV patient by a mere trifle (40 years).
Yeah but they are going to charge you money for those drugs so they can reinvest that money in finding new drugs. Words cannot express my anger at this.....
Of course there is science behind it. As an aside, the evil pharmaceutical empires have extended the life expectancy of a newly diagnosed HIV patient by a mere trifle (40 years).
That will be marvellous news for the millions affected in Africa. Oh...
Considering it costs ~£3bn or so to get a single drug (more for Biologics) through from discovery to approval, exactly why do you think big pharma charge for their drugs.
You do realise that if Pharma didn't do the research and find a lot of these drugs then no one would (or they would eventually).
Governments couldn't afford to speculate to the extent as pharma have to.
For every 1 compound approved, you get up to 3 through to clinical trials only to be rejected.
Guess what..... that costs money. Unlike little vials of diluted pseudo compound.
Feel free to keep taking water, however by the principles of homeopathy you are definately drinking piss at all times.
Who are you talking to?
Cyberbullying is a crime.GrahamS - Member
I've spoken to my contact at Section 5 and he gave me a couple of surveillance stills.
6079smithw looks nothing like kaesae
Who moderates this forum? I would like a word.
If you are asking me, i am currently talking to the air as it contains the essence of my fiancee who went to bed half an hour ago. I fear it may not be diluted enough yet so I may shut up for a while
6079smithw - Member
GrahamS - Member
I've spoken to my contact at Section 5 and he gave me a couple of surveillance stills.
6079smithw looks nothing like kaesae
Cyberbullying is a crime.
Who moderates this forum? I would like a word.
It's OK they already know, cause they are watching us.
You might also want to pop a wanted ad out for a sense of humour...
Cyberbullying is a crime.
Only if you're American.
Who moderates this forum? I would like a word.
I can't possibly imagine.
There's a "report post" link under every comment which will bring it to the attention of the volunteer moderation team. I initially ignored Graham's post as I assumed it was a random image off the Internet posted for comedy value; if it's not then I'm happy to delete it for the sake of an easy life. This will happen faster if you report it and detail your objection.
On reflection,
I've edited the post.
Ok thanks Cougar
Back to the non-personal critiquing of responses to the thread topic.
Homeopathy shouldn't work because diluting things loads means there's virtually nothing left, and the idea of something being more effective the more diluted it gets sounds mental. And it reminds me of one of Pratchett's funny descriptions of Rincewind being outnumbered in a Discworld novel - something like "homeopathic warfare".
See - I do get it.
But there are people other than me out there who say it works and also there are people far more qualified than I am who will say it works beyond placebo effect.
Now, let's say you can suspend your belief and temporarily go along with the idea that homeopathy works and works beyond the placebo effect.
For it to work it would have to involve some kind of principle or process hitherto unknown to the scientific community at large and/or at odds with what we know so far.
We can agree with that right?
If it could be demonstrated that water has memory, that would mean the basis for homeopathy not working would have to be re-thought at least, shirley
http://themindunleashed.org/2013/07/new-research-supports-theory-that-water.html
But there are people other than me out there who say it works and also there are people far more qualified than I am who will say it works beyond placebo effect.
Yes, along with people who think the world was created in 7 days, dinosaur fossils were planted to trick us, climate change is a complete scam and many other things. What they all have in common is that the vast majority of research on the subjects appears to disprove them completely. Same with Homeopathy, the reviews of the very limited testing show that at most there is a good coincidence between taking something and consequences. At worst it shows a blatant manipulation of the numbers.
Homeopathy shouldn't work because diluting things loads means there's virtually nothing left, and the idea of something being more effective the more diluted it gets sounds mental.
Not to me. The none homeopathic drugs I give are diluted some as much 1:10,000 they work as well and not because an evil corporation tells me they do either.
I've had homeopathic fans who have said they don't want anything for the pain as they've had the diluted water, they've sat there in agony. Once I've offered them a guarantee that I can take that away they soon give up and accept the pharmaceutical drug, I wonder if they then give up all together once they've tried the pain relief.
If it could be demonstrated that water has memory, that would mean the basis for homeopathy not working would have to be re-thought at least, shirley
No, it wouldn't. Homeopathic treatments would have to work before the basis for the statement "homeopathy doesn't work" would have to be rethought.
If water has a memory surely given it's central role in life on earth the water cycle and the age of the planet. Then all water molecules in existence will already have bumped into all active homeopathic compounds so tap water will in effect be a homeopathic cure all and we should not waste our time and money on the commercial version.
He shoots. He scores.
If water picks up the imprint of whatever it is in contact with then as soon as it touches your body it picks up the memory of you. Hey presto, homeopathic auto-immunedisease.
And as water is just 2 hydroxyl groups back to back, the same as is found in alcohols, it could explain why alcohol makes you lose your memory. The watery bit steals it.
6079smithw - Member
But there are people other than me out there who say it works and also there are people far more qualified than I am who will say it works beyond placebo effect.
Like the woman in that guardian link you posted who selectively quoted a report to make it look like that was the conclusion?
Didn't Hitler get started by not allowing anybody to hold views different to his own.
Ramsey wins!
[img] http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTLkugy9PSxXsNimG5xPPF4Jng_Eii9TZmULPbMhYjOWuT2Hzrgto_A3Sio [/img]
A completely natural Godwin.
Just beautiful.
And as water is just 2 hydroxyl groups back to back, the same as is found in alcohols, it could explain why alcohol makes you lose your memory. The watery bit steals it.
*applauds*
It's getting pretty rare these days to see one in the wild rather than in captivity. You're quite right though, it's a beautiful sight and well worth the wait.
I think they should shut the internet down for the day, there's nothing left to be done.
Besides, I thought Hitler got started by losing a testicle and it being displayed in a museum over here and him being really peeved about that and then going off his head a bit and declaring war on us and then shooting himself on a golf course in the sand bunker.
Or something.
Cyberbullying is a crime.
I'm sorry if that image made you feel bullied 6079smithw - that was not my intention. Like some others, I thought you might be kaesae returning under a different name, as you have similar views and posting styles.
A quick google suggested that you clearly weren't him, so I posted that "surveillance image" of you simply as a jokey way to refute it.
No offence or bullying was intended. I'm sorry if you felt it was. 😳
Back to the non-personal critiquing of responses to the thread topic.
Okay. Unless a lot of details are missing then even to a non-scientist such as myself this "experimental evidence of water-memory" which you posted earlier has some fairly enormous holes in the experimental technique:
So the drop "structure" looked different amongst the group, but was similar for each experimenter. Okay.
Did each experimenter use one or multiple droppers? One or multiple water sources? One or multiple sample plates? Did they make all experimenters drop from exactly the same height? Did they try sharing sample plates, water or droppers?
there are people other than me out there who say it works
There are plenty of people who say all manner of things. This does not make any of them any more correct.
and also there are people far more qualified than I am who will say it works beyond placebo effect.
Define "qualified." There are plenty of people with a vested interest in saying it works, saying it works. Be that the ones making money, the ones who want to save face after wasting money on it, and the ones like yourself who seem to just desperately want to believe in something. It's not a great shock to expect that a "qualified" homeopath is going to tell you how great homeopathy is.
Now, let's say you can suspend your belief and temporarily go along with the idea that homeopathy works and works beyond the placebo effect.
For it to work it would have to involve some kind of principle or process hitherto unknown to the scientific community at large and/or at odds with what we know so far.
You've got the cart before the horse here. You're right that for it to work beyond placebo it would have to be some mechanism that we've not isolated yet, but [i]how [/i]it works is a secondary concern to [i]if [/i]it works. The claimed mechanism is not the showstopper from a scientific perspective (it just makes it extremely unlikely); the problem is that irrespective of how it might or might not work, it doesn't. Homeopathy does not stand up to double-blind trials beyond placebo. It's that simple.
Whether water has a memory, whether it's the work of Jesus, whether it's innate alien technology or whether it's hitherto undiscovered nanobots, none of this matters, because, fundamentally, it does not work. So investigating how it works is an exercise in futility.
--
If water has a memory surely given it's central role in life on earth the water cycle and the age of the planet. Then all water molecules in existence will already have bumped into all active homeopathic compounds so tap water will in effect be a homeopathic cure all and we should not waste our time and money on the commercial version.
Ah, but, you've not shaken it in a special way.
For it to work it would have to involve some kind of principle or process hitherto unknown to the scientific community at large and/or at odds with what we know so far.We can agree with that right?
Yes. Well actually, hell no. You can't make something true by saying "It's not true, but lets say it's true and that it's actually unverifiable or proven to be not true because we don't know enough of that pesky science stuff to find out that it's true". Your assertion holds true for pretty any belief held which is unverifiable and is a cheap get-out clause for people who don't want to acknowledge reality.
If I said fairies and ogres and trolls ( 😆 ) were real but science hadn't discovered them yet, I'd be rightly cast as a mentalist.
So what you're saying is that it's true that scientists haven't proven that fairies don't exist? In a thousand years of scientific inquiry, not one of them has succeeded in proving that fairies are made up? I think that speaks for itself...
this thread is still going?
pass the biscuits, I've got a fresh mug of tea
You don't want tea. You want a mug of water that remembers tea.I've got a fresh mug of tea
