[Closed] Behavioural insights

I'm sure you've been called worse del. I routinely refer to you in very colourful terms. 🙂

The language used to refer to (mostly) minority groups also gives lie to the user's underlying attitude towards them. Challenging those views often starts (but of course, shouldn't end IMO) with the words used. Making an assumption, I'd guess that Bizzies are always being told, from on high, how to refer to various members of society. Can you tell me out of interest where you think this has gone too far? (genuine question)

I've just read this back and I apologise for overuse of the word "refer".

[b]OP:[/b] Are you being "nudged" too far....

So, you're arguing that people disagree with you because they are brainwashed?

It's because of us being members of STW. Internet home of fad diets and fad bike trends.

As deluded notes plebs gives away the attitude - I am superior to you - and that is why iot is bad - we cannot pretend words dont have meanings and that they show our attitudes. However it depends on what you mean by PC

I would be concerned if in private between mates we spoke like this - though this geberally only holds true if you know the person is nopt a racist homophobe /whatever.

In public on a forum of strangers it is probably better we adopt a more inclusive style of language lest we are mistaken for a racist xenophobe rather than someone with a bad sense of humour.

Behavioural insights

Where?

Someone is currently doing 12 weeks jail for making jokes in poor taste on the Net.

Jeez, sorry, it was "Pleb" not "Prole" 😳

Public discourse demands inclusivity,as JY says-- private talk amongst friends-- well anything goes.....context is all

been a lovely morning, must go now, housing benefit issues to sort......

fnord

"comments were so serious and abhorrent that he deserved the longest sentence they could pass"

If I create a Facebook account, lock the privacy settings right down, have 0 friends so no other user can read what I write, is what I post on it 'private'?

The data is being sent through servers, it is stored, there is no guarentee that it will remain out of other users' view. A facebook employee could potentially take a printscreen of my name next to a sick joke I posted, and post this image on the official 'Hunt for April' facebook page in full view of her family.

However, I intended it to be private.

Do my intentions count for anything in this situation?

Is political correctness always a good thing though MSP? And sometimes it's pretty clear to me it has gone mad, for example when someone that's had his window smashed uses the word "Chav" and gets flamed.

And the vast majority of people in that thread 'flamed' those criticising the use of the word. So anti-political correctness has gone mad? It's a lame cop-out of those who have no argument to start crying about political correctness.

It really worries me that 84% of this audience agrees with that statement, because the kind of people that say "political correctness gone mad" are usually using that phrase as a kind of cover action to attack minorities or people that they disagree with. I'm of an age that I can see what a difference political correctness has made. When I was four years old, my grandfather drove me around Birmingham, where the Tories had just fought an election campaign saying, "if you want a **** for a neighbour, vote Labour," and he drove me around saying, "this is where all the ****s and the coons and the jungle bunnies live."

And I remember being at school in the early 80s and my teacher, when he read the register, instead of saying the name of the one asian boy in the class, he would say, "is the black spot in," right? And all these things have gradually been eroded by political correctness, which seems to me to be about an institutionalised politeness at its worst.

And if there is some fallout from this, which means that someone in an office might get in trouble one day for saying something that someone was a bit unsure about because they couldn't decide whether it was sexist or homophobic or racist, it's a small price to pay for the massive benefits and improvements in the quality of life for millions of people that political correctness has made.

It's a complete lie that allows the right, which basically controls media now, and international politics, to make people on the left who are concerned about the way people are represented look like killjoys. And I'm sick, I'm really sick-- 84% of you in this room that have agreed with this phrase, you're like those people who turn around and go, "you know who the most oppressed minorities in Britain are? White, middle-class men." You're a bunch of idiots.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Stewart_Lee#On_political_correctness

Grum-- saw Reginald D hunter , he is very very good, made a lot of people squirm any many more laugh for a long time, whilst discussing race, class and gender-- man is worth catching live...

Edukator, I remember when I posted that me and my girlfriend were spat at in the street, you suggested it was partly our fault for daring to walk hand in hand in public.

Maybe a little nudge might not be a bad thing...

I think some people get so overly worked up about political correctness that they either:

a) They blame all kinds of random shit on it and do the whole political correctness gone mad thing
b) They don't understand the purpose and look for offence where it doesn't exist

Not being racist, sexist or homophobic and generally polite it doesn't effect me really. I don't consider it an erosion of my rights that I can't call people rude names because of something that is genetic or even because of their social or economic situation which may also not be their choice.

There are plenty of rude names left I can call people though so I don't feel my insult vocabulary has had to suffer.

Thanks for that grum 🙂

Edukator, I remember when I posted that me and my girlfriend were spat at in the street, you suggested it was partly our fault for daring to walk hand in hand in public

you serious-- him say that !! why him use that moniker--he sounds like he's trapped in the wrong century --Victorian Dad ?

[quote=emsz]Edukator, I remember when I posted that me and my girlfriend were spat at in the street, you suggested it was partly our fault for daring to walk hand in hand in public

Maybe a little nudge might not be a bad thing.

That's what he was trying to do. Nudge you into the closet.

Edukator, I remember when I posted that me and my girlfriend were spat at in the street, you suggested it was partly our fault for daring to walk hand in hand in public.

Maybe a little nudge might not be a bad thing...

Now this is where it becomes a bit of a minefield.

Was it that he said the others actions were justified, which would of course be completely wrong. Or was it that he said, due to knowing the possible reaction from some lowlifes you put yourself in an avoidable situation.

a link to the thread may be useful.

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/homophobia-alive-and-well-on-the-streets
more the later IIRC but he argued it poorly, again iirc

If I create a Facebook account, lock the privacy settings right down, have 0 friends so no other user can read what I write, is what I post on it 'private'?

The data is being sent through servers, it is stored, there is no guarentee that it will remain out of other users' view. A facebook employee could potentially take a printscreen of my name next to a sick joke I posted, and post this image on the official 'Hunt for April' facebook page in full view of her family.

However, I intended it to be private.

Do my intentions count for anything in this situation?

[b]If a message sent is grossly offensive, indecent, obscene, menacing or false it is irrelevant whether it was received. The offence is one of sending, so it is committed when the sending takes place.[/b]

Untrue, no-one has been jailed for that reason. Someone has been jailed, however, for committing a criminal offense under section 127 of the Communications Act - and not just "a joke" but (according to the judge) "comments were so serious and abhorrent that he deserved the longest sentence they could pass". If these cretins fail to realise that what they type in a drunken stupor can and will be widely broadcast then that is their problem.

+1

I'd counter the notion that the censure of offensive tweets is less manipulative of public opinion than the deliberately vague reporting of these cases - encouraging the reader to presume an over-reaction to a minor infraction. In the case where a kid was arrested for tweeting about Tom Daily it was reported as if one off-colour message was all that had prompted the reaction when infact it was a deluge of pointed and viscious attacks and threats of harm.

These things are news generally because the medium is new. Individually and culturally (and legally it seems)we haven't managed to distinguish whether twitter (or facebook - or this forum) is like whispering behind someones back, standing on the rooftops with a loudhailer or shouting your insults straight in someones face.

Was it that he said the others actions were justified, which would of course be completely wrong. Or was it that he said, due to knowing the possible reaction from some lowlifes you put yourself in an avoidable situation.

It's not really a minefield. Girl hand in hand with another girl in maybe not the nicest part of Oxford(?) during the day gets spat at by homophobic dick. There is no way the action of the spitter is reasonable however what she got from Edukator was basically "you should have known better than to behave like a lesbian in public".

Didn't help with this corker either:

[quote=Edukator]I can't help thinking that it's easier to adapt to one's environment than go on a crusade to change it.

So basically, don't try to change the minds of bigots just work around them which I think is a pretty awful statement.

"you should have known better than to behave like a lesbian in public"

I have just been reading the thread, that's not what he said, in fact apart from a crappy joke he was putting the same point I made above pretty well, but people kept pushing and misrepresenting his point, until he lost the plot.

He does seem to be one of those guys that can be pushed over the edge by some posters.

But it does backup my original post on this thread.

What happened to emz is a reason for the need for political correctness.

But it was turned into something else (what I called the tyranny of sentimentality), a pretence of siding with the op to abuse, provoke and push for a reaction from someone with a known weakness for going off on one.

I would have an opinion on this, but alas I am too busy buying things I see in adverts and trying not to offend people... apparently

Plebs, odd insult really. They did all right for themselves in certain respects. Not that I have my own opinion on the matter obviously.

Anyway, back to being patronized.

If a message sent is grossly offensive, indecent, obscene, menacing or false it is irrelevant whether it was received. The offence is one of sending, so it is committed when the sending takes place.

So violence rather than doing as the Roman's when in Rome is your answer, Crankboy. Isn't avoiding behaviour some find provacative in public more peaceful?

Edukator from the other thread. Apparently free speech is very important to him - isn't this the equivalent of telling, say, political dissidents in a repressive country that it would be better if they just shut up so as not to cause trouble?

To understand this forum better, I would suggest reading Dr Steven Peter's "The Chimp Paradox" rather than the "nudge stuff". Not only does it have (a slightly spurious) link to bikes (via Team GB) but his description of The Chimp is one of the best descriptions of forum behaviour that I can find 😉

[quote=MSP]But it was turned into something else (what I called the tyranny of sentimentality), a pretence of siding with the op to abuse, provoke and push for a reaction from someone with a known weakness for going off on one.

I don't disagree that some of it was baiting but as grum has said, Edukator seems to believe that the best way to deal with bigots is let them get on with their issues and don't expose them to anything that might offend, even if their opinions are in the minority. We're not even talking about protests or anything designed to shock/confront, just walking down the street hand in hand in this case. I don't really think that pandering to the lowest common denominator is really the way to create an equal society.

Thanks for posting the link to the holding hands thread, Junkyard, much better than misquoting. Have you got last week's "face covered" one book marked too so people can see I object to people covering their faces whatever they use to do it.

We have an exchange student staying with us at present. Before she went into town yesterday I suggested she remove her waist pack and put her camera and cash loose in her pockets. STwers have previously misinterpreted/misrepresented my pragmatism as "racism" and "homophobia". What word have the over-sensitive got for suggesting a young female make herself less of a target for our local scooter-riding robbers?

Edukator seems to believe

Is being "street wise" pandering to the lowest common denominator, Atlaz? I don't think so.

[i]What word have the over-sensitive got for suggesting a young female make herself less of a target for our local scooter-riding robbers? [/i]

nanny state?

Have you got last week's "face covered" one book marked too so people can see I object to people covering their faces whatever they use to do it.

It was a thread started by emsz so was easy enough to find by searching her profile - i dont have any thread bookmarked but thanks for the dig you are ever so witty with your ad hominems. If only you were allowed to be ruder about folk whilst misrepresenting yourself eh adamn those PCers eh.
I will route that out so peole can indeed read that your account of what happens is fanciful and they can read all about you and your very own version of tolerance
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wtf-naked-rambler-jailed-for-5-months

STwers have previously misinterpreted/misrepresented my pragmatism as "racism" and "homophobia".

I really believe that people should [s]stick to believing what I type rather than putting words into my mouth[/s] read what you say rather than listen to you describe what you think it means

FWIW in the emsz thread i think you wer esayin be careful there ar enumbnuts out there as you are doing in the theft one
On the issue of the Burkha I shall let the thread do the talking.
No one agreed with you on the thread

Nanny state solutions would include more police officers watching more cameras and compiling more statistics, fitting all scooters with tracking devices and bio-metric ignition systems... .

"Nudge" state tactics would involve building fear around city centre shopping whilst promoting out-of-town sotores and car use so no young women felt the need to go into town anymore.

Edit: thanks for the link to "naked" rambler thread, Junkyard. Some impressive conclusion jumping in there.

"Nudge" state tactics would involve building fear around city centre shopping whilst promoting out-of-town sotores and car use so no young women felt the need to go into town anymore.

Why just young women? I don't see evidence of this?

No one agreed with you on the thread

No-one agreed with me when I first disagreed with the iDave diet either.

My whole point about these "nudge" methods is that they are aimed at making lots of people think the same way so that they can be easily persuaded (or manipulated if you see it negatively)

Junkyard. Some impressive conclusion jumping in there.

It's just a hypothetical example Kryton though I might have inadvertantly hit the nail on the head as to the long-term government/corporate agenda on how we shop and how to change our habits.

Junkyard - I applaud your tenacity on this but, like TJ, I think Edukator is unlikely to be educated about the way his behaviour and online persona come across by anything posted on here by us.

Edukator i was making a subtle point. Like the linked thread, here in black and white you focused on "young women". They may have been inadvertent but its a common theme here. What you are doing as WWW perhaps suggests is making yourself a target because of your apparent targeting of minority or subjective issue in your responses.

Perhaps try being a bit more PC/generic on your responses and it might help?

Guys, stop attacking Edukator. We get the point. At least some people have attempted to discredit him by relating his behaviour to the thread, retaining some semblance of topic.

There are suburbs in the US that have no pavements. I think this is an oversight more than a 'nudge' born from collusion between developers and car manufacturers.

Is it never tiring being the only one who is right when an entire forum is wrong?
Thank god it does not shake your self confidence or make you think about it.

There one of those dominating on the "other channel", I find it quite tiresome.

It's not an entire forum, Junkyard, it's the few that can be bothered to post on that topic.

History has judged that whole nations of people have been wrong.

Is it never tiring being the only one who is right when an entire forum is wrong?
Thank god it does not shake your self confidence or make you think about it.

Edit: should I have lied and said our guest is a young man, Kryton? My advice would have been the same.

You're jumping to conclusions, thinking you know what I'm thinking and putting words in my mouth again.

Political correctness is mainly a good thing,

No, it isn't.

It's very often un'PC to tell the truth. Any time telling the truth is actively discouraged is never good.

I will never succumb to being PC. I try to be as un-PC as possible as often as possible, just because I can.