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Just had a thought on this - and a question/ hypothesis.
Obviously COVID broke a lot of things to do with kids and their behaviour. But if you take a step far enough back, and overlook the short-term blips, is this part of a much larger trend?
As a whole, we're less strict parents than our parents were - our kids probably get more leeway than we did as kids, and we don't go in for casual corporal punishment. And the way our parents tell it, we had a much easier time of it than they did when they were kids with their parents. So there's a trend line there; is current kids' behaviour an extension of a similar trend?
I would say this is not the case, using sweeping generalisations the kids with parents much less likely to smack their kids have better behaved kids than those that make you wonder.....
In my view lockdowns did a lot of damage, I don't see worse behaviour than 20 years ago but I see far more kids who really do seem to struggle with understanding how to behave..class sizes have ballooned in the last 5-10 years too which makes everything harder.
I dont know about behaviour in schools as I dont go to school anymore. I do see kids interacting with each other and parents whilst out and about and some , the minority really , is awful.
Chav parents swearing at their kids in a supermarket because kid #1 wants a toy and kid #2 wants new shoes. Then its tears and screaming to manipulate and or embaress said parent into submission. This then escalates into more swearing and often kid being frogmarched around shop .
Teenagers dressed as wanna be roadmen when its a hot sunny day and their idea of rebellion is doing a wheelie the wrong way down a one way street. Lots of play fighting , pushing , slapping and boisterous behaviour esp in mixed groups. Probably the usual alpha male pecking order being established . But then theres other groups of lads on DJ bikes who are pretty laid back and its possible to have a grown up converstion with them.
Does seem worse to me than 30 years ago, but we did bad things back then too just probably not as publicly and I certainly wouldnt have sworn at my parents and they wouldnt have sworn at me , ever.
This is a good discussion, and there are some interesting posts. It is worth remembering that every generation ever has worried about the behaviour of those coming after them, going back centuries. I've discussed this before, so I have a few quotes saved (there's a good one by Plato as well, but it seems to have been made up)
Aristotle:
Young people are high-minded because they have not yet been humbled by life, nor have they experienced the force of circumstances. They think they know everything, and are always quite sure about it.
Youth were never more sawcie, yea never more savagely saucie… the ancient are scorned, the honourable are contemned, the magistrate is not dreaded.
The free access which many young people have to romances, novels, and plays has poisoned the mind and corrupted the morals of many a promising youth…
(Blaming novels - the social media of the day)
A fearful multitude of untutored savages… [boys] with dogs at their heels… [girls who] drive coal-carts, ride astride upon horses, drink, swear, fight, smoke, whistle, and care for nobody… the morals of children are tenfold worse than formerly.
I have plenty more.
I'm not denying that there is anything to worry about (we should worry about our youth, that's one of the jobs of adults), but these worries are not new. I'm sure you all remember adults complaining about our generation, our behaviour and morals, back when we were teens.
I'd just add that I used to teach in state secondary schools (more than a decade ago, so only loosely relevant to the behaviour of today). Other teachers, parents, and various other adults moaned about the behaviour of the children back then as well. I found the opposite - I didn't like the job, finding much of it trite, pointless, soul destroying, mundane. The ONLY good thing about it was working with the children. I thought they were great.
I do think in 20 years there will be a definite underclass who subsist on benefits and whose kids will not be able to break that cycles (it's already happening).
There has been this 'underclass' as you put it, for decades. In many areas, a few of these families are on their 3rd or 4th generation non/never working, living off society. In reality, this is only a tiny proportion of kids going to school. The current schooling system doesn't work for a decent sized proportion of kids...never has, but in days gone by there'd be a pathway open to kids into work (for the most part). It feels like the whole thing needs a complete makeover starting at 4 yr olds.
The main change ruling behavior is the reduction in consequence for not following societies percieved rules. This has been happening for hundreds of years. The question is have we gone past the tipping piont where improved state support is now as destructive to societal cohesion as it is to supporting it. And then of course there is the cost, not a new issue, the workhouses were introduced partly as a result in the ever increasing costs of poor relief for people in their own homes.
We need a society where the vast majority contribute so those that can not can be supported. Covid conicided with a much increased awareness of mental health issues. Trouble is thats now exploded and is genuinely an issue with the current generation of yoing people that wasnt there before. Trouble is like most lifestyle related illnesses it takes some motivation to overcome. In the past the consquence of not getting out of bed was no income. That meant people predisposed to low level mental health issues had to learn to manage their lives. As that survey of doctors recently said life being a bit stressful is not a medical condition, its life.
At the school my sister teaches at the problem is parents. They never side either the school and always think their child is an angel who never does anything wrong. The refuse to allow their child to have after school detention because it inconveniences them.
That was my partners experience in a very middle class rural school. You can't discipline Johnny because he has rugby after school and if you do I'll complain to the head etc etc. She had zero support from the head. She quit teaching after her NQT year.
It is worth remembering that every generation ever has worried about the behaviour of those coming after them, going back centuries.
Bingo.
I genuinely thought I was in the conspiracy theory thread back on Page 1.
None of this is new. My gran used to moan about the "kids of today" 40 years ago. We love to find a Scapegoat Du Jour - phones, video games, television, Elvis, books - rather than take some fkn responsibility for what we've created. "I was smacked as a kid and it never did me any harm!" Well, it made you think it's okay to knock children about. How often do we still hear "bloody Millennials"? Millennials today are grandparents for gods' sake.
The fate of the next generation is on the previous one. Always has been, always will. If your spawn is littering, it's because you were never taught not to. Two generations down and it's normalised behaviour.
Did anyone ever stop to consider that perhaps kids today are shits because old people have dedicated their lives to telling them they're shits? Done the time, might as well do the crime.
That was my partners experience in a very middle class rural school. You can't discipline Johnny because he has rugby after school and if you do I'll complain to the head etc etc. She had zero support from the head. She quit teaching after her NQT year.
To be fair here,
Unless the point of after-school detention is to discipline the parent, it's overreaching. How is Johnny going to get home when the school bus left an hour ago?
^^ Sur-Ron
^^Avec le Balaclava.
None of this is new
Has anyone said that poor behaviour is a new thing? I certainly haven't. However, it's definitely being expressed in ways that are new, mainly because of the influence of social media and mobile phone use.
The ways in which behaviour is tackled have also changed dramatically.
So dismissing these trends and patterns as 'nothing new' rather misses the point.
Has anyone said that poor behaviour is a new thing? I certainly haven't. However, it's definitely being expressed in ways that are new, mainly because of the influence of social media and mobile phone use.
You certainly haven't until you just did in your very next sentence.
I wasn't addressing anyone specifically so much as the KIDS OF TODAY!!! narrative of the thread in general.
So dismissing these trends and patterns as 'nothing new' rather misses the point.
That point being... ?
Johnny's mum wouldn't dream of letting her precious angel getting the bus.
Johnny's mum wouldn't dream of letting her precious angel getting the bus.
Of course not. He'll be in a taxpayer funded taxi on account of his autism and ADHD.
You'll regret getting me started on this. Background- 33 years in primary education. Full time in the arse end of Stoke then supply and short term contracts in Gloucestershire, now TA on the way to retirement in a ridiculously small primary school. Behaviour has plummeted. It's appalling. Not everywhere of course and not all age groups and not all schools. Problems at all levels , much of which starts with parents who are not fit to be such. Poor attitudes to school, expecting schools to be social workers, can't be arsed attitudes and blaming everyone but themselves. Government doesn't help. Not just money but attitude. Even inclusivity isn't such a great idea. How can you get a class to concentrate when a child with needs wanders in and screams at them? How can you expect high standards when an individual is allowed to get away with things? Keeping excluded kids in school. Now just what is expected of them then? Carry on with their mates and thus promote the idea that poor behaviour is ok?
Some staff, especially at top levels and those who have escaped out of schools and into management be it local authority or academy leadership have forgotten how to deal with day to day issues. Expectations are too high. Don't bloody well say we should have high expectations of all kids. You can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear but you can make a bloody good leather bag. We want our kids to out perform the world, looking at the countries who have exceptionally high levels yet we are not prepared to make the kids work. We have just been told to add 30 minutes a week of mental health training. Great, although surely that's the parents job, but what's been deleted? Nothing. Thus the staff are pushing things too far, the kids are stretched and i all goes tits up.
We have no sanctions although possibly my school is softer than many and being very small has no spare staff to cover a detention. The only sanction is to miss playtime. Thump your mate and you'll miss 10 minutes of a 15 minute break, sitting on a bench in the play ground. Kick a younger child in the balls and mum gets told who blames the victim. That's it.
Disjointed and semi coherent rant over.
At least Keirs kid gets a £15,000,000 study pad for his child. I don't know why the perants around here can't do the same.
You certainly haven't until you just did in your very next sentence.
I'm not sure how I could be much clearer about this?
There has always been poor behaviour in schools but the nature of that poor behaviour has changed in recent years.
Or are you suggesting that's not true?
I wasn't addressing anyone specifically so much as the KIDS OF TODAY!!! narrative of the thread in general.
I just ignored the posts like that because it wasn't what I was interested in. Fortunately there have been plenty of contributers with more thoughtful contributions.
Or are you suggesting that's not true?
I'm suggesting that old people are getting older and resentfully taking it out on young people.
I'm also suggesting that this is what old people have always done.
Kids aren't getting shittier, their parents/grandparents are.
Unless the point of after-school detention is to discipline the parent, it's overreaching. How is Johnny going to get home when the school bus left an hour ago?
That’s exactly how it was at my school in the 70s/80s, on a town where many of the pupils lived in the dales - the last bus was at 4 pm and if you weren’t on it, tough luck. It was on you to explain to your parents why they needed to make a 20 mile round trip to collect you! I don’t think anyone thought this was the school’s problem.
My eldest is at a school where detentions range from 10 minutes loss of break time to after-school and discipline is generally good, though there are still issues. As far as I can tell some of these are not helped by the numbers of pupils (big school, small estate), undiagnosed special needs, and teacher churn (he had more supply teachers in year 7 than I had in my entire time at secondary school). Then there’s social media - though the school prohibits phone use in school and tries to be proactive in getting parents on board with preventing problems arising on social media being brought into school, but it still happens.
Just asked better half who’s a been a primary school TA (specialising in SEN) for last 15 years, her take was:
Parents - at one extreme, there are parents with totally detached attitudes i.e. they don’t care about their kid’s education, don't do anything with their kids at home to help their education and will often have far too much discipline or none at all. Basically neglectful parents who are crap roles models, which results in kids not learning boundaries (around how to interact with their peers) and probably creating a host of other problems due to having a crap home life . Other extreme parents with over protective attitude who think they know best about everything and any school will never do good enough for their child. These parents constantly contact school with criticisms to the point of harassment and their over protective attitude is a detriment to their child’s education & social skills (can result in kids developing a superiority complex).
Schools/ academy trusts - Newly qualified teachers are constantly being given classes with worst behaviour with little support (sink or swim). There are sometimes 'business' decisions made by the SLT that are detrimental to staff and or pupils. These decisions are done without consulting experianced staff first (who could have told them the decision would cause problems) There are some very jaded teachers that probably shouldn’t be teaching. Like some parents that see every problem as being caused by the school (and refuse to believe anything is their fault), there are also some school staff that place all blame on parents (and refuse to believe anything is the school’s fault).
LEA/ Goverment – lack of, and reduction to funding. In recent years there has been a big push to accommodate more and more SEN children with a higher level of needs in ‘non special’ schools who don’t have the resources or training to meet their needs.
Agressive, violent and disrespectful behaviour has increased in the last 15 years and the level of this type of behaviour to merit any type of exclusion has also gone up ( permanent expulsions are virtually unheard of). Lockdown did negatively affect the kids especially the younger years, but it added to the problems rather than being the sole cause.
To counteract some of the negativity above, the bad behaviour, bad parents or bad teaching staff are a minority, albeit a impactful one. Nobody’s perfect and mistakes are made, but most parents and teaching staff all work hard for the best outcomes for their kids. Most kids are overall a credit to their parents and the thought of a future in their hands is a positive one.
I'm suggesting that old people are getting older and resentfully taking it out on young people.
I'm also suggesting that this is what old people have always done.
Kids aren't getting shittier, their parents/grandparents are.
I see. When it comes to understanding and dealing with behaviour in schools, blaming it on grumpy old folks isn't any more helpful than blaming it on kids.
I see. When it comes to understanding and dealing with behaviour in schools, blaming it on grumpy old folks isn't any more helpful than blaming it on kids.
Perhaps not, but is it wrong though?
If we constantly tell kids that we think they're crap, we're going to end up with crap kids. That's on us to do better. "It wasn't like this in my day..." needs to stop, because it is causal. IMHO, etc.
There's people working in education, or adjacent to people working in education, on this thread. Tell me, how often do you get feral children from loving parents in model family homes? It probably does happen but I bet they're outliers.
I'm always surprised when I hear people moaning about "the youth of today". My kids (now in their early 20's) are some of the most impressive people I know. I could say similar for their friends, cousins etc. None of them needed to be whacked to make them that way and it's probably no coincidence that my relationship with my kids is much healthier and natural than the one with my parents, or them with their parents.
When I think about the hand they've been dealt (house prices, tuition fees etc) I'm surprised they aren't murdering us old folks in our beds to be honest. In fact my main concern with the youth of today is that they don't seem angry enough.
Exactly.
My gran used to moan about kids today and how things used to be better, and that was in the 1980s. "When I was your age, we didn't have THREE television channels! You don't know you're born!"
Swap out ITV for social media and little has changed. Maybe, just maybe, we should be encouraging youth rather than being envious of it.
"
Johnny's mum wouldn't dream of letting her precious angel getting the bus.
Point stands then, it's not the kid's fault.
Which was my point. I'd agree with the comments above, my kids and their friends are great, they give me hope. On the other I saw a headline locally about a large group of kids putting a bus driver in hospital, so it makes me wonder if have a rose tinted view because of my kids etc.
In fact my main concern with the youth of today is that they don't seem angry enough.
You have a point.
There is a generation of folk retired in the last 15-20 years that if they really wanted you (and were numerate enough to handle the maths) could look at the financial conditions they entered their 20s in in terms of expected salaries as a factor of cost of living, rents and house prices, compare it to what 'normal' looks like today and maybe re-evaluate their fortunate position.......and then allow that new perception to modify their attitudes to others and the world around them.
Yeah, but, they'd only waste it. Far better to have it sitting in the bank for 30 years and then get swallowed by a care home.
Swap out ITV for social media and little has changed
The difference is that social media and phone use has brought real harms in a way that other things that were going to be society's downfall haven't.
Pupils weren't using TV back in the day to share naked photos of their ex or having full on meltdowns in school when they didn't get to bring a TV. TV wasn't being used to sell drugs in school or to recruit kids for county lines drug running. Kids weren't spending hours a day listening to misogynists on TV and getting radicalised as a result. Pupils weren't using TV to access hardcore porn in class. I could go on.
I get the point that there's always been something people have warned about but you can't just dismiss the problems being caused by social media etc on those grounds.
Also look at who's saying this stuff. I'm willing to bet your granny wasn't an expert in education but here we are now with hugely experienced teachers talking about serious issues they're actually seeing and struggling to deal with. Are you wanting to lump that lived experience together with your old granny having a moan about kids today?
It's cougar's razor. If he said it's true if you said it, it's false. No matter which of you has day to day experience.
Sounds about right.
Do I really need to add "in my opinion" to the bottom of every post? I have my areas of expertise just like everyone does, but I'm mostly just taking part in discussions. In this particular conversation I've got nothing, I'm not a parent, I'm just pushing back against folk ragging on soft targets who don't have representation here.
Kids of today are objectively our future. We should be nurturing that, not sticking the boot in.
In my opinion.
Also look at who's saying this stuff. I'm willing to bet your granny wasn't an expert in education but here we are now with hugely experienced teachers talking about serious issues they're actually seeing and struggling to deal with. Are you wanting to lump that lived experience together with your old granny having a moan about kids today?
I take your point but, it's not an isolated incident. It's been a common narrative for decades.
People like Andrew Tate are a problem, yes, absolutely. One of many. Are we taking any responsibility for that? Or are we just shrugging and going "yeah, Twitter." Who bought the phones?
Drug running across county lines? Are you in the US?
Drug running across county lines? Are you in the US?
You could just have asked me what I meant rather than trying to make a snarky point.
https://www.nationalcrimeagency.gov.uk/what-we-do/crime-threats/drug-trafficking/county-lines
It's very much a thing here in the UK.
You could just have asked me what I meant rather than trying to make a snarky point.
I appreciate it's maybe out of character, but I genuinely wasn't being snarky. Rather, it made no sense to me unless you were in the US. We don't have "county lines," in the US it's relevant because jurisdictions and laws both change between counties. From your link this seems to be a unique usage relating to phone lines and not one I've heard before. So thanks for that, I've learned something.
The difference is that social media and phone use has brought real harms in a way that other things that were going to be society's downfall haven't.
Said it before, will probably say it again. Symptom not cause.
People are looking around online for acknowledgment of whether certain behaviours are acceptable or not; believing because someone else has done it, it's OK. That's not because of social media; social media currently enables it (plus limited positive impacts on mental health which doesn't outweigh the above), but does not create this gap in basic principles of how to behave, and "ban social media!!111" isn't going to fix it.
But hey, everyone's come into this with their own conclusions, so old man shouts at cloud, I guess.
I have worked in education with teenagers for 24 years. The vast majority of children are well-mannered, motivated and want to do the best they can.
Yes, some will be rude and muck you around and one or two can be nasty and awful, but that is nothing new. They are children and will push boundaries.
Don't let the media that will only ever focus on the very worst make you think all teenagers are that way.
I saw a stat today that 13% of teenage / young men think misogyny is acceptable but 67% think it isn't. Now 13% is clearly too much but it's reassuring that it's still a small percentage and the majority have their heads screwed on properly.
When checking out the beaches for my summer hols, it’s impossible to ignore the fact that most of the young men are wearing swim shorts.
its only the really old guys in speedos, flaunting it.
credit to the young chaps for showing some restraint (until the bars open)😂😂😂
It’s gone to hell.
I worked in a grammar school where a kid punched another kid and was expelled indefinitely. The contract was torn up in front of him and his parents.
So called academies are there to make money. They couldn’t care less.
Now we’ve sent a message that it’s ok to f around. Some kids tell me they won’t do anything wrong when they’re 18 as the police will get them. Other kids who want to learn are dropping grades from the bad behaviour which is trickling down to society and the streets.
There isn’t a shortage of qualified teachers, they are just working in other fields.
The system needs a zero tolerance reboot.
Porn is a real issue in schools.
It always has been. Its just that it used to be a slightly damp copy of Razzle that you found in a hedge 😀
No I mean a REAL ISSUE. Yes I remember someone having a floppy disc with some grainy VGA images when I was at school, and out of school someone finding a mag in a hedge. It was surreptitious and nobody wanted their parents or teacher to know. It was a "novelty" and amongst older children, I mean this is boys from 11 up (and I've heard stories younger!), watching hd hardcore stuff, in a classroom, whilst teaching is going on. When parents are told - the answer seems to be "what do you expect". When teachers are told they shrug and say "they are 'all' doing it". Then they think what the see in porn is normal and they expect girls to behave like that and want images which get shared etc (again potentially illegal). Part of the problem is the "well we used to try and find a damp copy of Razzle in a hedge" response. Firstly that maybe wasn't ok, but it definitely is nothing like being able to find any type of violent porn you want 24/7 and be quite nonchalant about it.
Yep,the yesteryear porn was a lot less niche and tamer than the HD violent/aggressive porn that is literally available on any smart device 24/7.
Washed down with some ‘Tate’ type influencer spouting shite…and hooking more subscribers.
It’s even worse Grab a pic of a teacher and roll your own ‘harmless’ movie to share with your buds.