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My gut feel is that there is less (let's say) fear of your parents.
I would say the issue is more that parents and teachers have less influence on young people than in the past. And what's replaced that personal influence? Yup, social media. So we're back to the phones thing. 🙂
What are the punishments or responses to that behaviour?
There are no punishments in most schools. The responses where I work tend to be having a bit of a chat or getting the parents in for a bit of a chat. And of course they may or may not turn up.
I would say the issue is more that parents and teachers have less influence on young people than in the past. And what's replaced that personal influence? Yup, social media. So we're back to the phones thing.
OK, I think your first point makes sense. Second one I can go with.
But saying that, and using it as lead into "QED, we must ban kids from social media" is completely arse backwards. Like "my kid refuses to eat vegetables and only eats meat, so the answer is to ban them from meat". No, the answer is to address the fact that they only eat vegetables. I could grudgingly agree to limits on social media (ban under <13s and actually enforce it; ban all 18+ content from kids and enforce it, in-school device limits/ bans etc); but banning it entirely simply leaves another void for the next big thing, rather than actually addressing the root cause, which is that parents and teachers have less influence than in the past.
There are no punishments in most schools. The responses where I work tend to be having a bit of a chat or getting the parents in for a bit of a chat. And of course they may or may not turn up.
Again, back in' day, when I were a lad... the idea of the school calling your parents in for a chat 😱, it was terrifying! I'd frankly rather have the corporal punishment than my parents have to come in!
Which then comes back to the parents - what's changed now, and what's the cause of it?
Porn is a real issue in schools.
It always has been. Its just that it used to be a slightly damp copy of Razzle that you found in a hedge 😀
So, uh, Drizzle
There's no point thinking you can ban smartphone to <16/18s - cigarettes and booze were banned to kids when we grew up and it just made them more interesting and probably addictive. In a world which uses technology we need to teach children how to use it constructively, how to manage it so it doesn't take over your life etc. I'm not sure anyone discussing this on a mountain bike forum during the normal working day can really claim the moral high ground there!
I don't know what happened that phones in classrooms suddenly became a problem. Somehow teachers lost that one by not having the authority - perhaps because when we were young any such stuff would have be confiscated but now a leadership failure means they are terrified of getting in trouble for stealing a phone, or sued if it gets damaged because school management have tip-toed around it for too long.
Porn is a real issue in schools.
It always has been. Its just that it used to be a slightly damp copy of Razzle that you found in a hedge 😀
No I mean a REAL ISSUE. Yes I remember someone having a floppy disc with some grainy VGA images when I was at school, and out of school someone finding a mag in a hedge. It was surreptitious and nobody wanted their parents or teacher to know. It was a "novelty" and amongst older children, I mean this is boys from 11 up (and I've heard stories younger!), watching hd hardcore stuff, in a classroom, whilst teaching is going on. When parents are told - the answer seems to be "what do you expect". When teachers are told they shrug and say "they are 'all' doing it". Then they think what the see in porn is normal and they expect girls to behave like that and want images which get shared etc (again potentially illegal). Part of the problem is the "well we used to try and find a damp copy of Razzle in a hedge" response. Firstly that maybe wasn't ok, but it definitely is nothing like being able to find any type of violent porn you want 24/7 and be quite nonchalant about it.
Why would that matter, if what we're talking about is juvenile behaviour related to 'hope'? Unless you are saying that hope is something we feel we are entitled to more of now than back then....
Lack of hope probably compounds as the generations pass as prospects continue to decline. Meanwhile the infrastructure of the community ages and is neglected. It’s not like time didn’t take its toll on the area. And inter-generational trauma.
personally, it all went downhill with Grange Hill.
mum, is that you? The user name checks out.
Life in a collapsing society.Dregs breeding dregs.This is how the top 0.1% like it. Much easier to hoodwink ignorant morons.
We are basically now a nation of loud uncultivated scum.With my local variant being a loud mouthed are sole!
+1 LAT. Decadent and degenerate are us.With a few honourable exceptions of course.
Porn is for the most part anti-misogynistic.
In the orthodox playboy/ penthouse form, it’s a fairly energetic form of goddess worship.
violent porn is fairly niche.
why do these children express antipathy towards their classmates?
If they have access to that much porn, why do they still feel sexually unfulfilled?
another issue is the lack of interest/ hobbies in both the children and the parents.
The actual time it takes to learn the mandatory stuff (maths/ English), could be postponed until the last four years of primary.
Id change the curriculum at the local FE colleges so that adults would attend in the afternoons and evenings, leaving the mornings for parents and children to attend, learn and become inspired.
What are your thoughts and experiences of this?
Tangential experience second hand, take with small pinch of salt:
Problems start in the home, and they start young.
If they're not looking on track by age 7, the likely outcomes are not great.
Kids falling into that bracket will cause disproportionally more problems later on, and have disproportionally worse life outcomes.
I hasten to add, a lot of this is basically not the kids fault, but that of the environment they start in, which mostly means the parents (and/or wider family) and slightly means the place they live, the food they eat.
Of course even if you fixed every child up with perfect parents and nice places, some would still be badly behaved. Nature / nurture, etc. See also loss of things like sure start.
not blaming the teachers, but the way the system has evolved over the years - I can still remember being smacked at school - only ever happened once!).
Never got hit by anything, but one teacher was a very accurate thrower of pieces of chalk, and one teacher was known to use a blackboard eraser! One gym teacher used an old, very flexible plimsole - that stung, by all accounts!
These huge crowds of kids effectively terrorising shoppers in shopping centres seems to be organised on the socials, and they appear to be unafraid of any kind of repercussions, too.
I’ve no idea what the answer is, though. 🤷🏼♂️
Of course even if you fixed every child up with perfect parents and nice places, some would still be badly behaved.
There's always going to be poor behaviour that's part of growing up and part of the job of teaching but I feel like I've seen a change in the type of behaviour. It's not the old staples like bullying, minor vandalism, horse play and smoking. More kids are just flat refusing to follow instructions, there are more full on meltdowns, more arguing the toss over tiny things and more behaviour directed at the teachers. And then there's the stuff I mentioned earlier like watching porn in class and making false accusations. There seems to have been a bit of a minor epidemic of the latter in a few schools round here lately.
It has massively changed. Been in the game 24years and it's much nastier now.
Yes there was always an undertone at times but it's becoming everyday and every class. I have higher level kids who don't want to study because "it's not fair". Used to be 5% disenfranchised now it's 15-20%. These parents don't care or are straight up aggressive to authority. Education is spending a lot of money on a group of pupils some of whom will benefit but a lot won't.
I do think in 20 years there will be a definite underclass who subsist on benefits and whose kids will not be able to break that cycles (it's already happening).
A lot of success at school is pushed from home and the interest that is taken in the kids and their education. That parenting skill is being lost or not happening. It is a worry but government isn't helping and funding cuts are really biting,.schools are run by managers and not teachers.
It has massively changed. Been in the game 24years and it's much nastier now.
I trained in 2006/7. Up until about 5 years ago I'd never had to fill out a V&A form, I'd only ever had one kid properly swear at me and even that was a bit half hearted. I've now been sworn at a number of times and I've had to use the V&A reporting system on 3 occasions. I've changed schools but the catchments are much the same, if anything some of the ones I worked in pre-pandemic were 'worse'. I also think I've got better at defusing these sorts of situations.
Obviously this could just be down to me being lucky then unlucky but I don't think I'm alone.
They all behave in my lessons 😜
Ex teacher and outdoor instructor, currently have 30 delivery staff in schools and nurseries across the UK most days
It is an issue and it's getting worse.
In my view it's a huge combination of factors. Societal, parenting, lack of nature connection, poor diet, lack of exercise, lack of independence, risk taking and socialisation, and yes a huge slice of technologies enabling this change, addicting children and young people and providing a conduit for deeply harmful material being normalised.
But banning phones or blaming schools is not the answer. It's a wider societal issue that's complex and that's going to be slow to change.
I worry for many young people. And it's the adults who need to change...
It's a wider societal issue
Well yes, and wider society at the moment doesn't offer much hope or inspiration. Who can criticise a child for questioning authority when the leader of one of the most powerful nations on earth is so irrational and the outlook is so gloomy. Who can criticise someone for questioning authority when those who run the country give themselves above inflation pay rises, or fiddle expenses to pay for duck houses, or host parties during covid lockdowns (the list is endless). If you want respect, you have to earn it, whatever your social status, age or position in life, and it starts from the top. There are some good role models out there, but not enough whose voices are heard loudly enough.
[...........
But banning phones or blaming schools is not the answer. It's a wider societal issue that's complex and that's going to be slow to change.
I worry for many young people. And it's the adults who need to change..
Very true.
But to add a bit of balance, staff at our local Subway are today appealing for the two lads on bikes who stopped to help a lady in a wheelchair get into their store to come forward so they can get a free lunch. The good kids need to be recognised and supported
What are your thoughts and experiences of this?
The survival of the fittest. Those who wish to learn and to gain knowledge will behave, whilst those who cannot understand the reason for being at school should be "separated" to let them pass their own time as they wish in a general normal class. i.e. Have an extra hour or so to cater for those which wish to learn. For those who are generally passing time, they should just attend general class or if they wish to attend the "extra" class, they need to behave or they can do their own things as they wish at their own time. This way, the choice is theirs and you are not forcing them to attend "extra" class.
There is no way you can "save" them all. Some will have to learn the hard way in life but at least giving or helping those who wish to learn give you a chance to salvage a total failure in a generation(s).
Not all people/students are meant to be sitting in class learning, coz they are not built that way. Forcing them to learn will only create more troubles for yourself.
If you want respect, you have to earn it, whatever your social status, age or position in life, and it starts from the top.
If you want respect you have to earn it, but it starts at the top? So people have no agency or obligation to try to be decent because others are ****s?
That's the dumbest shit I've read all week and I've been reading DJT truth social posts.
The vast majority of kids are good kids.
One of the most positive ways I've heard the Andrew Tait impact described was not to focus on his followers and how many young men think he's their man, but rather focus on how many don't. The vast majority of young men have been exposed to his shtick and honeyed words and still think he's a prick. Society is not lost.
Having said that I remember my time at school with several kids always causing troubles affecting everyone in class.
They failed their GCSE equivalent and started to learn their own trades for survival.
Fast forward 25 years later, they now earn 3x the average salary as cooks and load sharks. The latter are causing plenty of misery for people but that's how they survive.
The survival of the fittest. Those who wish to learn and to gain knowledge will behave, whilst those who cannot understand the reason for being at school should be "separated" to let them pass their own time as they wish in a general normal class.
Which doesn't work if they do not know there is an off ramp from a life subsisting because education and the opportunities that follow is not an option in the family, house, neighbourhood etc
Which doesn't work if they do not know there is an off ramp from a life subsisting because education and the opportunities that follow is not an option in the family, house, neighbourhood etc
Teach with your best or almighty strength for all (normal or extra hour lesson etc), while the rest is up to those who wish to learn or not learn i.e. their survival choice is their own choosing whatever that may be in whatever environment they are in. Some will notice the urgency of learning while others don't. They are all built differently and teachers cannot save them all.
As the fast east saying goes "if a horse is not thirsty, you cannot force (push its head down) it to drink the water".
So people have no agency or obligation to try to be decent because others are ****s?
That's the dumbest shit I've read all week and I've been reading DJT truth social posts.
Thanks for that stunning example 🙄
Equally dumb - I didn’t say that. Everyone has an obligation to be decent (that’s something you have control of), but the point I was making is that if you are in a position of responsibility you shouldn’t assume respect simply by virtue of that position.
If you can add getting T squared by the whale to this list, we must have gone to the same school.
Never got hit by anything, but one teacher was a very accurate thrower of pieces of chalk, and one teacher was known to use a blackboard eraser! One gym teacher used an old, very flexible plimsole - that stung, by all accounts!
and I've been reading DJT truth social posts.
That makes the point quite well. Do you respect the leader of the US just because he’ll has a position of power? Clearly not. So if you’re a teenager who do you look to for inspiration? Your favourite premier league footballer, your favourite influencer? If it’s the latter, you may get lucky, but there are plenty of examples of influencers who spread false information. I’ve had enough conversations with my teen about DJT and Andrew Tait to last a lifetime.
Much of this just stems from parents who have spent the last 10+ years plonking their kids in front of screens to avoid having to interact with them
This is what austerity does.
Nope, I'd say closer to Hatter. Austerity doesn't dictate parent/child effort and relationships; instead day after day I see kids waiting in our shop tugging and tugging and tugging and tugging at mum's trousers for attention, but Mum's eyes never leave her phone. It's a second or third generation problem of screen (TV, then phone) addiction and the effects are logarithmic.
In the meantime, as per northern soul above, those screens are now being exploited by people with nefarious radicalising intent from every distant horizon of the political spectrum... another issue again.
I think a lot of the behaviour was there 30 years ago, but it sounds more widespread now.
A friend’s dad was a head teacher … until he was shot by an angry parent with an air rifle. PTSD retired him.
My stepdad taught for 25 years at a school in the bottom 3% of GCSE achievements. It was like a war zone - a girl was raped in the toilets. I did work experience there as a 15/16 year old and couldn’t believe what some of the 11 year old kids told me about their lives - one cracker of a kid was watching his dads porn videos all night while his parents were working night shifts. He’d been expelled within a year, but I’ll bet his attention seeking behaviour was precisely because he really did need some attention.
But I do think there’s something to be said for the shift in parenting style these days. Me and all my peers seem to be more like friends with our kids now, probably intentionally shifting away from the disciplinarian style of our parents. That can make it much harder to set boundaries - kids must be confused when their “friends” change mode and demand certain behaviour. I don’t know what the right balance is and I’m actively thinking about it and trying to get it right. If I had additional stressors like having no partner, financial issues, illness, or kids that were heavily peer influenced that would be massively difficult and I’d probably be overwhelmed.
if that’s how you justify it to yourself - but that logic only stacks up if the only interesting thing about women is their bodies and all women look like port stars.Porn is for the most part anti-misogynistic.
In the orthodox playboy/ penthouse form, it’s a fairly energetic form of goddess worship.
it’s readily available, along with every other niche. Ask women in their twenties who date guys from apps etc if they’ve ever been choked during sex - you might find that “niche” is not so small. None of it represents how normal men and women interact, which might be fine once you’ve learned how to talk to the opposite sex - but if your are 12 and see sex as something you can just ask for /demand you are in trouble. If you think you can just select a different partner to do different stuff or who looks better with the flick of your finger you are going to be so confused when in real life women have a say in the interaction too.violent porn is fairly niche.
well that’s probably a deeper question but if you mean why do boys think it’s ok to act like they do in front of girls? Probably in part because they don’t look like not respond how the actresses do.why do these children express antipathy towards their classmates?
Ask women in their twenties who date guys from apps etc if they’ve ever been choked during sex - you might find that “niche” is not so small.
My wife, also a teacher, went on a course about misogyny in schools. The presenter had some stats about the kind of questions kids asked about sex in an online course. Up until a few years ago choking was never mentioned then suddenly they get loads of mostly boys asking if it's ok to choke a partner or how to do it safely.
The statement you were replying to about most porn being anti misogynistic is ludicrous.
I've been teaching since 2004. With a year on supply I've been in 30 schools. Mostly in 3 school for the majority of the time.
The behaviour in my current school is some of the best I've experienced.
I haven't been sworn at for 7 years.
Any sight or sound of a phone and it's confiscated. Some kids refuse to hand it over, they are put in all day detention. All day detention is effective for 95% of the kids. The 5% have huge range of stuff done to help them. It's mostly effective.
Currently policy is fighting, on the 2nd offence-expelled. Knives/weapons drugs- expelled.
It's a nice place to work.
It has a mixed catchment. One super nice area. One very deprived area.
Any sight or sound of a phone and it's confiscated. Some kids refuse to hand it over, they are put in all day detention. All day detention is effective for 95% of the kids. The 5% have huge range of stuff done to help them. It's mostly effective.
Currently policy is fighting, on the 2nd offence-expelled. Knives/weapons drugs- expelled.
Is this in a state school?
Expulsion just isn't a thing in Scotland any more, even detentions seem to be a thing of the past in a lot of schools. Apart from anything else there's a practical issue in some areas. If a kid gets expelled there's nowhere else to go.
We used to have a system where you wrote a kid's name on the board as a visual reminder if they misbehaved. A second offence you put a tick beside it and a third earned them a transfer. We were told we had to stop that because it was in contravention of the UN convention on the rights of the child.
We've got 40% in SIMD 1&2 and to be honest it's the poverty and the lack of .....almost everything, that is an issue.
As a society we can kid ourselves that everything is ok but it really isn't for a good number of the next generation.
Part of the issue is theres a lack of honesty in the conversation. We complain politicians say everything is ok. I honestly believe they are telling the truth but only because that's what they've been told.
At the chalk face we can say that 90% of an initiative is failing but by the time the headteacher gets the information 10% is working well, head of education hears that there is success in the initiative and scotgov hears that it is working well. Everyone has trimmed the truth so they have success.
There are no honest no blame conversations, which means we can't go forward.
^Sounds like everything else in this country, especially policing and courts .
At the chalk face we can say that 90% of an initiative is failing but by the time the headteacher gets the information 10% is working well, head of education hears that there is success in the initiative and scotgov hears that it is working well. Everyone has trimmed the truth so they have success.
Reminds me of something in one of those office noticeboard books. Something along the lines of
- In the beginning was the plan
- The workers saw the plan and said it was shit
- The supervisors told management that the plan was manure
- The managers told the board that the plan was that which was good for growth
- And lo, the plan became policy
Behaviour isn't just atrocious in schools, look at the conduct of some our celebrities/public figures/reality TV stars/influencers, of people on the roads, in business, in public office.
It's by far and away not everyone but the me, me, me social media echo chamber of modern life does not give adequate checks and balances on behaviour.
Those who have nothing to lose and don't fear consequences can behave badly with relative impunity while those bound by moral and professional standards must be more measured in their daily lives and responses so that side of life is no longer visible as the norm. The norm presented of behaviour has become engineered "reality" for telly and the internet.
Old man shouts at clouds I know 🙂
Just had a thought on this - and a question/ hypothesis.
Obviously COVID broke a lot of things to do with kids and their behaviour. But if you take a step far enough back, and overlook the short-term blips, is this part of a much larger trend?
As a whole, we're less strict parents than our parents were - our kids probably get more leeway than we did as kids, and we don't go in for casual corporal punishment. And the way our parents tell it, we had a much easier time of it than they did when they were kids with their parents. So there's a trend line there; is current kids' behaviour an extension of a similar trend?
@nicko74 I was locked under the stairs by my grandad, given the slipper by my old man, slapped across the back of my legs (in shorts) at Primary School and given the cane in High School but it did nothing to improve my behaviour.
I definitely didn’t want that for my kids but I think you might have a good point.
25 years ago a police officer told me he was policing a dregs society.Society is much worse now.