[Closed] Becoming a Teacher...

Higher Education teaching and lecturing is (IMO) a decent enough career to get into. Wages seems good etc. Depends on institution I guess though.

I trained as a teacher but have spent all my working life in industry!

I work in FE/HE (not academic staff) and it seems that most teachers f-cking hate teaching, whinge constantly about how much they get paid, take loads of sickleave and have no idea how to live in the real world that exists outside of the education sector.

if it still appeals to you then go for it, but don't be surprised by the negative bollocks that will grind you down and make you half as happy as you are today.

So as someone who has actually worked in industry and is now a teacher in a school.

Don't do as a flash in the pan idea, get out to schools and see the real teaching world. If it still appeals then go for it. You may find part way through the training you don't like it.

It is not easy but it can be rewarding. There is a lot of bullshit but point me at a job without its paperwork.

Higher Education teaching and lecturing is (IMO) a decent enough career to get into. Wages seems good etc.

But usually - though not always - expects one to have a doctorate and do research. Which is an entirely different proposition.

Oh, and the cash isn't that good - either that or Dr North is just pretending to be skint.... I shall have a eord with her!

have no idea how to live in the real world

I've always wondered where this "real world" is. Anyone got any directions?

I'd rather less be a teacher than be an academic, but the pay cut would be too much to bear. As would having to be sufficiently self motivated to do research, write papers and kiss faculty a*se....

my housemates oppinion:

stress: imagine controlling 30 kids that by default dont want to be there or shut up

workload/hours: come home at 4, stressed, and do 4 hours marking, then spend the weekend planning the next 5 days worth of lessons?

hollidays: spent wondering if you actualy want to go back to work, and actualy going anywhere is prohibitavly expensive.

Then again science/maths (old school friends, parents friends) teachers IME seem to hate it less than MFL teachers (housemate). Maybe its easier, maths when i was at school was largely taught from the textbook, all the teachers did was make sure everyone kept up so it got done before exams), science is easy to fob off half a lesson with a practical and if you geeky (your an engineer!) going into the maths/explanations is probably quite interesting (well it would be for me).

[i]Oh, and the cash isn't that good - either that or Dr North is just pretending to be skint....[/i]

I guess it depends on what counts as decent cash 🙂
Lecturer - £30-£35K
Senior Lecturer - £35k-£45k
Principle Lecturer - £45K-£54k
Most academic staff are senior lecturers.

I'd rather less be a teacher than be an academic,

I am an academic and would rather be a teacher - Both my parents and my sister are teachers so I do know what its like. The problem with academia is that unless you're very lucky you spend the first 15 years of your 'career' on rolling 1-2 year contacts, expected to move round the country (or planet) to different universities with no guarantee of a permanent job. Teaching sucks marginally less...

Did the PGCE for a year and then taught for 4 months after it - that was 12 years ago. By far the worst 18 months of my life. If you are the type that likes to pull the shutters down come 5pm and have a life outside of your job DONOT even think about teaching.

Househusband did. I believe he studied engineering first then struggled to get work in the field, did something unrelated for a bit then re-trained. (hope you don't mind me summarising your recent life, Andy? You can kick my arse at the weekend if you do 😉 )

From what I can tell (chair of governors at primary, I recruit, work with and sack teachers) good teachers usually enjoy what they do, and decent teachers sometimes do. Crap teachers always hate it these days as recently introduced performance management no longer allows them to hide. There is a whirlwind of new initiatives constantly needing to be planned for(just taking a break from reading the Rose Report), but the National Curriculum and all it's abundant frameworks are finally allowing planning and preparation to be speeded up through decent use of IT. Assessment of learner performance is becoming more formalised, not less as you might have guessed through media as things like Assessment for Learning and Assessing Pupil Progress are rolled out, even though some SATS will disappear, but even so constant review of project outcomes is nothing the average salesman or production engineer has had to cope with forever anyway. Money not bad these days, and holidays excellent, but whether you want to do it and are likely to be any good at it are the big questions. Could you spend a week or a fortnight of your holiday time volunteering as a classroom assistant in a school to let you get the feel of it? A lot has changed in schools since the seventies and eighties when I was there. Get the feel of the places first, then take it from there.

After a chequered career, I did a BA Hons followed by a PGCE to be a PE Teacher in the late 80s (I was in my thirties).

By far the best teaching job I had was working in a middle school, years 7 & 8 were my favourite years to teach. That's 11-13yr olds. Old enough to know some stuff, but not so teenager they already know it all.

I developed a knack of dealing with disruptive/problem kids. Used to get other classes problem kids shipped into my class. In some ways I actually preferred the problem kids as I found them more of a challenge.

I went from there to teach in a residential private school for kids who were in social services care. Some of these unfortunate souls were one step away from prison. Some of them were on permanent 2:1 24hrs a day. That's two adults to one child. Social services pay up and down the country pay £3000 per week for this level of care!!!

This was very tough, but very rewarding work. I did this for a few year, and then one day, I just couldn't do it any more. Why? Because the care system is designed for the perpetuation of the care system, not the benefit of the child.

Didn't want to go back into mainstream. I gave up teaching in 1999. In the ten years that I was a teacher things had changed greatly.

Teaching can be the most rewarding of jobs. I have many many happy memories of teaching. Teaching can also be so tough it'll break you.

There's only one way to find out.
SB 🙂

Four hours marking a night? Aye right. Oh, and all teacher cynics, can't live in the real world, all spare time prepping, dreading the end of holidays. Good to see the stereotypes are alive and well.

20 years a Plasterer, 5 a Teacher.

Fancy 12 hour days? Ok. Hols do help but not as much as you would think. biggest hassle nowadays is paperwork that takes the pleasure out of teaching. I slightly disagree with midlife though. The people who enjoy it most are those who can deal with time wasting best as well. A teacher spends a huge amount of time dealing with "new" initiatives that supposedly improve learning but don't always work at the coal face. every new minister has to change things. If you can handle them you are a "good" teacher, if not you fail. Must admit I see it from a primary perspective and with your background you sound like you could go secondary. rather you than me1 Young kids want to learn, 15 year olds???? spend some time in a school first. Try primary and secondary, it might be for you.

I too am thinking about a change of career, into teaching. Personally I'm going to write to a few schools to see if I can sit on a week's science teaching to get a feel for it before I jump straight into a PGCE.

Science / Engineering / Technology PGCE's and the like often have significant government bursaries that you can apply for - makes re-training a little easier.

Also consider the Graduate Teaching Programme (or whatever it's called) where you actually go into a class from day one and complete the qualification as you work.

I'm coming toward the end of my year as a Newly Qualified Teacher, teaching Craft Design and Technology at a local community high school, and seeking a permanent contract. Did the PGDE (Post Grad Diploma Education) at Edinburgh Uni last year.

The employment situation at the moment is, for most NQT's, rather demoralising. There are very few posts coming up as authorities are strapped for cash and may well be seeking NQT's (free for them, as the Scottish Exec pays our salary) to fill posts for the next session.

The situation may well be different outside of Scotland.

On the positive side, it is a brilliant job. The school I teach at is 'challenging' but has a very good, clear discipline policy - and those magic moments when you know you've made a difference make up for the remainder.

Just to add (too late to edit) I'm at the maturer end of the scale; will be the big four-zero next year - am glad to have proper 'life' experience behind me; many teachers go from school, to uni, to post-grad teaching qualification, and back to teach at school.

Done a few jobs in my time, but been teaching for the last 12 years. Fan-bloomin'-tastic. Pay is fine. Holidays are great. Kids are a good laugh.

Be selective. I'm not altruistic enough to enjoy inner city school.
Be honest at interview, and only offer to do something if you think you would really enjoy it. i.e. don't volunteer to coach the basketball team if you can't stand it.

With a couple of years under your belt, life is good.
This week I have run two afternoons of Mountain biking for A Level PE. Last week was spent in the glorious sunshine of the Dales with 60 little Y7s. Tomorrow, Friday, is a training day that we have already worked as twilight sessions so we have an extra long, long weekend.

What is not to like?

The people who are troubled by kids behaviour, I would advise to "not take it personally". Last school I was at there was a 15 yr old wind up merchant that gave the dirtiest looks. Off the cuff I asked if he practiced the looks in the mirror. When his face dropped I realised he did. After that his wind up antics just made me laugh. When he didn't get anywhere he gave up and we ended up with a pretty good relationship.

Be careful you don't train only to find there are no jobs. Certainly in Primary there just aren't the jobs around anymore, with lots of people chasing a few temporary or maternity leaves. Also sad to say but I suspect your age will count against you, if you are up against a 20 year old with similar qualifications they will probably go for the 20 year old.Sorry to sound so negative.

lots of people suggested i should be a teacher but i put it off after uni for a variety of reasons. Worked as a cook and various other things and currently work in social care. as others have said, go and do a week or twos work experience and see if oyu enjoyit and try to get stuck in as much as possible. I got a reference from the head teacher of what he had seen of my performance and will be starting a pgde in August and can't wait.

is only discussed in a negative recession cycle.
You need patience, a sense of humour, to actually like children, be able to deal with the relentless small politics of schools and realise you will never actually finish anything.

There are noticably less jobs out there and as previously explained Local Authorities have given schools the minimum budget for 2009, £perpupil, so you may find it more difficult than you realise to get a post. Pupils can also sniff a phoney at 5 yards.

Be prepared to tow the line, if you are someone who voices their oppionion I don't think it goes down will with many senior staff. School politics see above.

You will have to be very self confident, that you know what you are talking about and can control the class. Maybe look at colleges as you don't have the idiots that don't want to be there, except in B-tec. You also need a very long fuse.

20 years site work, last 5 instructing and lecturing in FE.

Pluses - reasonable wage, steady income (compared to building), long holidays, local govt pension, short hours (9-5) compared to building, job satisfaction from good students improving, you get loads of extra qualifications (A1 etc)

Negatives - internal politics, you can't lose it with people with no repercussions, unrealistic targets, some disinterested mouthy students, the realisation that its a business not a service, wearing a tie

I've flirted with the idea, principally cuz teaching is one of the few decent jobs my art BA and MA qualify me for. But a few close friends are teachers, and seeing the reality of the job has made it something I'd personally only consider as a last resort. In particular what really pisses me off is the way the job is not so much about teaching kids, communicating with them, or engaging and enthusing them about stuff, but is more about fulfilling irrelevant teaching criteria and statistics and protecting yourself from Ofsted.

T'other week I looked at some of a primary school teacher friend's exercise books as he was marking, and guidelines meant that underneath their work he had to write a message to each kid on whether they used conjunctives and time-imperatives and stuff I don't even know about. The kids are 5 years old FFS. And most of them could barely copy letters from the board without doing some backwards. Some hadn't grasped that words need spaces between. And yet the focus of the teaching had to be on grammatical structures! It's utterly absurd.

I could post azillion words on other things, but I'd just say try to get experience of it before getting involved. For all the rubbish that goes with it that I couldn't tolerate, my friends do get a sense of satisfaction from it. Though I don't think they say they enjoy it, as such...

I am not sure if anyone has mentioned this but if you think teaching is secure job, think again. Falling birth rates are starting to work there way through the system. Many schools in my local area (three different education authorities) are closing school both primary and secondary to cope with the drop.

If you want to teach because you want to work with kids and help them and not because it's a secure job then great. Unfortunately I know a few people who have joined the profession for the wrong reason and have had a serious shock.

I know a few people who have joined the profession for the wrong reason and have had a serious shock

At least I feel good about that as I know I joined for the right reasons. It is without a doubt the most fulfilling thing I have ever done in my life, and have never experienced such job satisfaction. Think I'm lucky too, being in the 'techy' department as it's a popular subject and the staff are, in most schools, always pretty popular.

I think that many of the negative comments come from folk who either "know a teacher" or think they know teaching. It is a tough job often, and the paperwork mounts up so quickly at times you need wings to stay above it (sic) but reward comes in the moments of inspiration when a light bulb goes on in the students head and a year and a half of teaching, and they finally see what all that teaching was for, some even turn round and say thanks, that is a magic moment.

You've got to want to do it. Teaching is about relationships, and it's about forming positive relationships will all (well, almost all) kids.

You've got to like your job, and accept that you'll have good days and bad days, but as long as you laugh more than you cry you're OK.

My advice would be to get involved with a school, probably on a voluntary basis - Be ready for CRB checks - and see how you like it.

Schools are chaotic by nature, but an extremely satisfying pace in which to work. Sometimes it's even FUN! Getting started in teaching isn't going to be easy, but I reckon that if you like it, it's one of the best jobs in the world.

I am in my second year as a teacher. Did the 'straight from school to uni back to school route mentioned above!

It might be worth thinking about why so many new teachers quit in the first year or 2 before you make any decisions! I was very close to quitting after 6 weeks (then I broke my leg and had an extra 'holiday' which gave me time to refresh!) I am still there now coming towards the end of my 2nd year teaching.

Have spoken about it with a friend today who is thinking of quitting after one year and she saw it like this...

Bad points: horrible kids, horrible parents, having little or no support from senior staff, lots of useless ideas that you have to go along with before the next surpasses it, constatnt assessment from others who may or may not have a clue what they are talking about/oberving, pressure to achieve results eevn if you are not teaching bright/keen/able pupils, poor management and also alot of teachers get very sick at some stage through the year be it stress or flu or whatever etc etc etc

Good Points: Helping kids/making kids feel good, The pay is OK-goes up every year as long as you are doing an OK job, The holidays-yes much of them is wasted marking/planing/pondering or whatever but you cant argue with them, you can if need be get away from school at 3 whereas most people are stuck at work till 5 no-matter what.

I have to say the bad points are making some people fall apart under my eyes at school right now! These points wont apply to all schools but I would agree with most of them!

Did the PGCE for a year and then taught for 4 months after it - that was 12 years ago. By far the worst 18 months of my life. If you are the type that likes to pull the shutters down come 5pm and have a life outside of your job DONOT even think about teaching.

I did the same 2 years ago but stuck it for a whopping 8 months. Can't imagine ever going back unless I was actually struggling to find money to buy food.

An idea of what a bad day is like teaching science at a school thats not that bad.

Today I have- been asked very difficult questions by my A level kids, Had some numpty arrive 20 min late then gouge my desk with something sharp and leave deep scratches in. Had one of my students run (literaly) screaming down the corridor when she was allowed to go to the loo. Had a meeting with some bloke from a university instead of having lunch. Had a 30 min session where some woman from the local educational authority destroyed my will to live by waffling on about the difference between lesson outcomes and lesson objectives. Last lesson of the day some fool child plugged his phone and charger into the sockets at the front of the room then chucked a massive wobly and refused to leave the room when I confiscated his phone. I had to spend 20 min trying to control the class with a grinning idiot spraying water on the desks with a tap waiting for some one to remove him. After he was finaly removed i got to do a heart dissection with a nice but noisy class. This was followed by traipsing round the school looking for people who should have got some paper work to me in october. Back to my desk to find i'd offended one of said teachers and had to write a appology. Last incident of the day was one of my mates bursting into tears.

Today was a bad day, but I've had a lot worse.

I still like teaching people stuff, Whats missing from the rant above is a lesson with some bright keen students who did some great engaging work and still had time to have swine flu explained.

Oh and now i have to go and do some marking.

Martin (4 years of teaching)

I left academic research 3 years ago to teach. I did work based training (GTP) at THE lowest achieving secondary school in England. I enjoyed it, but god it was hard, almost unbearably so. After training you have a probation year (NQT) I stayed at the same school. That was even harder and the enjoyment got much less. I then moved to a mid to high achieving secondary school and it is getting much much easier, I really enjoy it, I'm not the best teacher in the world as I refuse to let it dominate my life, but I'm "good" (so have said all my observations) so thats good. Its still hard work and I'd rather be a lottery winner, but as jobs go its ok. Pay aint great but is OK and I am pretty much recession proof and theirs plenty of jobs as science teachers.

The holidays-yes much of them is wasted marking/planing/pondering

Mine aint 😉

oh and I've only be stabbed once in three years and that scar on my head is fading

I did the same 2 years ago but stuck it for a whopping 8 months. Can't imagine ever going back unless I was actually struggling to find money to buy food.

Bedmaker please don't! As you clearly realised neither schools, kids or parents want teachers who dont care about the job.

A good friend of ours re-trained as a teacher, full of enthusiasm at the beginning but now all we tend to see is her social life has become disrupted as not all schoolwork is done in the classroom, no end of times have we visited to find her piled high marking homework and / or planning lessons. She says she enjoys the job but after a few bevvies the odd comment appears which lets us know different.

I teach infants.
It can be great, but it can also be a complete nightmare.
Increasingly, I teach kids of 'kids', with no parenting skills whatsoever who expect me to do their job as well. It's dealing with brainless 25yr olds asking me to have a chat with their 7yr old to tell him not to light fires under his bed!!!!
It's one new initiative after another...constant jumping on band-waggons!
It's meeting government targets.
It's dealing with a boss who is really accountable to no-one. People wanting to be heads are so few and far-between that nothing is done to remove bad ones.

It's dealing with 5yr olds who crap themselves and then wipe said crap all over their hands, jumper, hair, toilet door...etc (brother of fire lighter)or crap themselves in the classroom, shake it out of their boxers down their leg and then just get on with what they were doing before!

It's seeing kids go from nothing to suddenly reading with expression and fluency.
It's seeing kids master a knowledge of the number system and understand how to wire up a simple electrical circuit.
It's what I've done for the last 21 years. I've taught about 500 children to read, been through 4 ofsteds and been told I'm an "excellent" teacher!
The holidays are fantastic...and not too much marking as 7yr olds don't tend to write so much! 8)

So, all in all, apart from the crap, it's a great job!!!!!! 😉

As suggested there is a huge variation in what teachers actually have to do. Having taught for nearly 20 years, I reckon the wise teach
a) D+T - classes limited to 20, practical, technician available. Kinaesthetic approach appeals to most.
b) ICT/Business studies - classes larger but students strapped to computer 90% of time one on one. Often KS4 classes are tiny. Subject is also very easy (sorry, but it is)
c) P.E. students get changed (15mins), play ball (30mins), get changed again (15mins) and no marking.
d) ART – GSCE classes are small, KS3 large but just about every student finds art enjoyable.

Unwise teach
d) MFL – difficult to teach and most students struggle with English let alone another. Large class sizes and really under the squeeze as no longer compulsory in curriculum
e) Science- 30-33 students – constant assessment – constant performance analysis of staff and pupils – constant better curriculum around the corner to prepare for.
f) English- because of the new OFSTED benchmark of 2 GCSE’s in ENG and MATHS you will be under a huge amount of scrutiny. Saturday classes are common and so are evening classes.
h) Maths. See for English.

The constant shortage and turn around of core subject teachers also causes a downward spiral of quality of provision.

I'm an 11-16 maths teacher but avoided industry despite my MEng due to seeing most companies were run by accounts who didn't want innovation or change. I teach some after school classes but its only an extra hour after the last lesson so it's no worse than having a meeting.

You'll need to have good time management (so I'm only on here because my planning, prep and marking is all up to date) and the stereo-typical view of all kids hating you because your a teacher is rubbish. The school I teach at is far from perfect but improving (ask Knottie for an outside opinion - he's local to us) and the job has its high moments such as taking four very talented Mathematicians to the regional team challenge round and handing all our local private school it's backside.

I am under results pressure but as long as you do your marking/planning etc properly and can prove you have offered the pupils every opportunity to get assistance and do well you're fine. Have a good long look at it first and get into schools to have a look at some days teaching before deciding. The PGCE and the first year or two can be hard work and it still is (although my extra responsibilities make it hard work now rather than being in a room with 30 kids) but I love it.

Oh and three more reasons - Christmas, Easter and Summer

Oh yes - currently in my third year of teaching at the school I did my NQT (probation year) at. Looking to move schools either this year or next year not because I hate it but to try and find a new challenge/the next step up the ladder.

What ever you do, don't teach R.E. You will be in for a world of pain.

house husband , can i pick your brains this weekend regards techy teaching ??

house husband , can i pick your brains this weekend regards techy teaching ??

Would be delighted have my [s]nose[/s] brain picked!

BTW - wanna borrow a 1x9'er if you're concerned about being slow on a SS?

nah im driving up as i looked at the weather , gonna try the bunk house see if its got any space if not ill kip in the car ....not got the space to carry kit to bivvy in the rain.

will bring race bike and will pick your brains about it then

It's a great job in the right school, hell on earth in the wrong one.

Avoid like the plague any school where the chair of governors is a berk who claims he recruits, works with and sacks teachers and who uses phrases like:

performance management

a whirlwind of new initiatives

reading the Rose Report

the National Curriculum and all it's abundant frameworks

Assessment of learner performance

Assessment for Learning and Assessing Pupil Progress

rolled out

constant review of project outcomes

In my 5th year teaching History and sometimes Citizenship.

Great work life balance for cycling, skiing and time with my family.

Have more good days than bad, few idiot kids as I teach 11-16yr old boys but on the whole it is good fun and when you hit the learning 'nerve' it is awesome. Finish at 3 out on my bike at 1535hrs!!!! Good worthy job which has feelgood and job satisfaction in abundance.

I’ve been at it for 19 years now, working with some interesting teenagers in an 11- 16 school in South Wales. Throughout that time I’ve always believed that if you follow the dictum ‘would MY kids like this’ you will go far. It is a caring profession. Targets, cohorts and the like are all very good but too many teachers stray into the ‘educationalist’ zone where IMHO they forget about individuals and concentrate upon ‘strategic’ issues. I’m just before that step, and I’m not going to take it. I’m content in my position as Assistant Head of Upper School.

Much of my work is teaching the curriculum. I’m a science teacher with a good science degree so this part of my job isn’t ever a problem. If a pupil asks me something I’m unsure of I tell them ‘ I don’t know’ and that ‘I’ll find out for you’. And I do, generally by the end of the lesson. If I can’t, I’ll give them ideas to follow on www to help them find their own way. Subject/ content-based learning is changing though and is much less prescriptive than before. So much so that some of my colleagues are a bit wary of it’s apparent lack of direction. I say bring it on, loads of room for self- expression and individuality in a new ‘skills based’ curriculum.

My role, apart from teaching science (a core and therefore compulsory) subject is to care for the pastoral welfare of my pupils. Hence I was on the phone to J, a troubled soul who will have to change Social Services placement tomorrow. I did this at 9:30 this evening- I was worried that J might not be OK, so I phoned (withheld) to check that J was OK. J was not, so I did my bit and hopefully have got J through the night in time for face to face restorative work tomorrow. In other words J needs a LOT of TLC and a huge amount of good advice from someone that J trusts. Building up trust has taken approx. 6 months. J relies upon Soc Servs but they are not always there so I stepped in.

What I have done is beyond the call of duty as a teacher, even one in my position. But it is hugely satisfying. I have made a difference, averted another ‘lost’ child, another potential headline.

A teacher at any stage in their career may well find themselves in a position where their pastoral skills are called upon. There are certain things that they have to pass on- like suspicions of abuse or of inappropriate sexual activity but I get an immense feeling of satisfaction when I see things going the right way- and I will fight tooth and nail for the child’s best interests if I see things going wrong.

I love my job. No complaints about the pay, and I love my holidays too.

I love teaching and have done it since 1979. Taught in some rough schools in London and Australia but they help sharpen your skills. Overall pay package is mid 40s and hours of work are incredibly variable (I left work at 10 past 9 last night) so it's not a good job if you're a clock watcher. Sadly I've seen few success stories of people coming into teaching after a career in industry, it's a job you either want to do from the outset or else it's best avoided like the plague.

HouseHusband, despite my post on the other thread I realise you are a probationer and not a househusband.Chin up fella, there is lots of supply for techy...sorry Craft and Design because you guys are specialists. Trail-rat; If you get disclosed I can get you into my school (Carnoustie) one afternoon a week to see if you like it, you would be shadowing History, but it would give you a flavour of what to expect.

Enjoy the Clova, Stewarts Edinburgh is the cask just now (there on Sunday)

I've taught for about 9 years now, in that time i've been in both private and state schools. Private usually sounds good, and you have a lot more freedom on what you can teach but the parents can be truly painful at times, and it can be embarassing how sheltered/complacent their children are! State tends to involve more hassle from the government instead, but if you're in a well balanced catchment area/ have supportive departmental and senior management, then it's great.

I found the first two years or so to be hard, and it's about a year normally in any school before you really establish yourself; hopefully by then you have a certain rapport with pupils which proceeds you (if you've done it right!), making life much easier. Marking will always be an issue (I'm an english teacher, so a lot of reading!) But being fairly pragmatic about it and it can be minimised down to one or two nights a week. This means you can be on the bike by 4pm at least 2 nights a week. (I'll be hitting trails by 3 this afternoon!)

I love it. Kids are a sight more entertaining and accomodating, (especially the cheeky ones) than a lot of office staff i've worked with previously! The holidays are brilliant, although they are at the times when prices are at their peak. -A bit irritating when you look at ski deals for the first week of term after christmas!

I'm always bemused by this comment about "the real world" though? It sounds a bit boring; not somewhere i want to go... 😉

LOL at eldridge...I posted something similar to that but then deleted it.
Brilliant!!! 8)

Governors...interferring busy bodies, who like to sit on committees but serve no purpose whatsover!!!!