MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
What an imbecile.
She seems fun.
They just live on a ****ing other planet IMO
http://businesstech.co.za/news/lifestyle/88472/the-biggest-entertainment-markets-in-the-world/
I think creative and skills in art would come in handy for several of the biggest entertainment markets on the planet:
Video Games
Film
TV
🙄
[b]November 11 2014?[/b]
I presume your outrage bus broke down somewhere on the way, and none on the creatives on board could figure out how to fix it?
Or does raking over old anti government stories looking for something to get upset over prove her point?
Christ! I wish I'd have had someone as well-informed as Nicky to tell me what a terrible error I was making, and it would have stopped me wasting my life completely on all this creative nonsense.
And how stupid do all those huge international companies who choose the UK to produce their creative work feel now? The massive idiots!!! 🙄
Moral of story - keep governments out of education
I like her. The last thing i need is another batch of young, talented graduates with their can do attitude, freshly honed skills and asymmetric haircuts reinvigorating the marketplace. It would be great if we could keep this as government policy for maybe the next twenty years. Not fussed what happens after that.
Show me a scientist or engineer or banker that hasn't limited career choices Anyway - A wee bit of theatre can bring a whole school together at all academic levels. It is as important for the teachers as well as the weans.
Luckily no one is listening to her, Currently Touring Arthur Miller plays...taught in schools, getting schools audiences.
Teenage rkk01 jnr is currently doing well with his science GCSEs...
"Logic" (tradition? Inability to think outside the box?) suggests that he persevere with the A level to degree science route that I have followed.
But I interview loads of new science graduates... Govt policy of the last 10 years means we are educating more than we can employ - or at least, more than we can offer the sort of challenging and financially rewarding careers that they are led to believe in 🙁
So rkk01 jnr is also quite talented in the performing arts. No idea if he is good enough to make a career out of it, but my view of employment in the science and engineering sector makes me think he could give it a go and always come back to his academic subjects at a later date
The point on maths is actually completely mind, though- nothing closes down or complicates future choices quite like not continuing maths at school.
She doesn't make the argument well but it is fundamentally about promoting stem subjects and you'll not find many people that disagree with that. It doesn't have to be at the expense of arts and humanities though. Well, no more than any course choice is.
Telling them "arts will reduce your future prospects" is a terrible idea. Talking about future earnings is frankly stupid. A gifted arts student that decides to refocus on stem for such cynical reasons is less likely to be a high achiever in that field regardless, if they succeed at all. The broad numbers make it look sensible but you can't apply that to the individual. And besides, encouraging 16 year olds to make all their decisions based on money is pretty rank.
Campaigns like this aren't generally considered that useful mind, what's really needed is to keep kids engaged with maths at younger ages and help them see what it's [i]for[/i]. Maths is a turn-off subject when others aren't and by the time it starts to look useful again a lot of kids have totally lost interest.
You know what would be a good idea? Widening the exam choices kids make so the entire system isn't aiming towards 3 blimmin a levels for university entry (even for kids that aren't going to uni), you can't complain that kids are closing doors when the system's designed to make it unavoidable. Oh and destigmatising college for uni-level kids too and improving english college articulation, stop mainlining kids into school -> university because there's other equally good routes, especially encourage smart motivated kids to grab hold of choices. Want to be an engineer but can't get into an engineering course today? Go and do a HND. (up here you'll graduate in the same year and statistically you'll graduate with a higher mark) The system right now is like giving directions, "If I wanted to go to Derry I wouldn't start from here".
TBF- I don't think she's qualified to give course and careers advice to one kid let alone all of 'em, her job's to make the entire deal work better
The actual speech (again, from [b]last year[/b]) carries more context
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/nicky-morgan-speaks-at-launch-of-your-life-campaign
She's right though isn't she.
When was the last time she saw someone interviewed saying the country desperately needed more people with degrees in fine art?
You know what would be a good idea? Widening the exam choices kids make so the entire system isn't aiming towards 3 blimmin a levels for university entry
This. Plus a million.
Then you might also get people in technical jobs who have some appreciation of the arts and are less prone to making dumb comments about 'what's art for?"
Or does raking over old anti government stories looking for something to get upset over prove her point?
I thought you would commend them for this sort of thing 😉
Hmm... I took Maths, Physics, and Chemistry at A-level, now have a degree and a post-grad in Architecture and practice as an Architect. Without reading the actual speech, the soundbite is partially correct in that certain choices are limiting.
I'm a big fan on apprenticeships and vocational courses, but art degrees and qualifications are a waste of time for the purposes of getting a job or career. If people have genuine interests and want to pursue further study in art then fair enough, but the reality is that you are far less likely to get a lucrative career as a result of that degree as an artist. And only a small percentage of artists are able to make a career out of art, and the education and skills acquired are less transferrable to other industries, and most are left to indulge it in their spare time and retirement while they chase around for a 'proper' job. My cousin is a talented artist with an A-level in the subject, but that was not enough for her to make a career in art and so she's in sales.
This is part of the jobs for young people problem we have at the moment. There are plenty of jobs and careers for young people out there, but they are not educated or prepared for them because they've mostly got degrees or qualifications in subjects that are not relevant or transferrable.
art degrees and qualifications are a waste of time for the purposes of getting a job or career
I have an Arts degree, and I have a good job and career, so what you've written up there is wrong, and is the same for the thousands of architects employed in the UK, a fair proportion of whom are bringing inward investment from other countries - actually there's a UK shortage of them now, which is why I've employed 4 new ones this year, only one of which is British.
I think you have to look at what the degree is in and also understand what is the point of reading for a degree - is it "just to get a job" or is it to develop both intellectually and personally? Maybe with he expectation that they won't be able to work in that field but have transferable skills into other areas - it's the same with science and engineering degrees, many of them go into other careers.
I'm a big fan on apprenticeships and vocational courses
WHY?
DO we have a shortage in the industries they do vocational courses in?
NO
Go to any college and see how many people are doing hairdressing, construction, child care, motor vehicle, animal studies etc
There are no skills shortages in these areas and many will never ever do a days work in the vocational areas
Training where there is a job is an excellent idea but many courses are little more than cash cows for the education sector.
Foresenic science - look how that has increased as we have closed one of the three labs in the country - bless you CSI and the folly of youth,
they've mostly got degrees or qualifications in subjects that are not relevant or transferrable.
Applies to non arts courses as well
What can a marin biolgists do in the real world?
IME anyone degree educated has a number of transferable skills irrespective of discipline and some specfic skill related to the discipline
FWIW i have never needed to write up an experiment or use algebra nor trigonometry in the world of work but I have needed to make a poster and a flyer.
Left school with one Art A-level.
20 Years later still running my film production company and making a living; have some of the best contacts in the industry and own flagship film equipment.
But yet I'm getting a nice Vat compliancy check just to make sure we're are not snaffling them.
Cu**s .
My cousin is a talented artist with an A-level in the subject, but that was not enough for her to make a career in art and so she's in sales.
An a level isn't a degree. No-one ever said it would be enough to sustain a career in art. There's no expectation that everyone who does art at secondary school is going to be in the art industry, just like no-one expects all kids who do a level history to go on and be historians.
Go to any college and see how many people are doing hairdressing, construction, child care, motor vehicle, animal studies etc
There are no skills shortages in these areas and many will never ever do a days work in the vocational areas
Actually, there is a very serious skills shortage in construction.
Even if the green belt is opened up for housing and the government realises that building houses is a better way to stimulate the economy than restricting supply, we don't have the skilled labour necessary to build much more than we do at the moment...
aP - Member
art degrees and qualifications are a waste of time for the purposes of getting a job or careerI have an Arts degree, and I have a good job and career, so what you've written up there is wrong
+1. MissT has an MA in textile design and aPGCE in Education. Currently a primary school teacher, school arts coordinator, running an after school art club, achieved an excellent Ofsted report(her first inspection)and featured in local paper at the weekend 😆 As an early years teacher her qualifications and use of art to teach kids especially with learning difficulties is what the schools was looking for given the curriculum directives at the time(5yrs ago)
Has no desire to progress any further up the " career path " due to the need as she sees it to talk and present " bullshit "
The creative industries is more than fine art. it includes a huge spectrum of jobs through architecture, music, fashion, film, industrial design, advertising, video games etc. Going to art school could be a stepping stone into loads of different careers it's not just about trying to make it as a struggling painter.
Junkyard - lazarusWhat can a marin biolgists do in the real world?
Research the breeding patterns of wolf ridges?
Seriously though, marine biology is a valuable field, was this a joke?
Love humanities grads....historians have a brilliant way of thinking. And they don't get A*s just by learning stuff
The creative industries is more than fine art.
No-one said it wasn't.
The Tory woman was just making the point that studying at least one Maths or science A level helped keep one's options open.
It amazes me that amongst the arty farty professions an admission of innumeracy is often seen as a badge of honour.
suburbanreuben - Member
It amazes me that amongst the arty farty professions an admission of innumeracy is seen as a badge of honour.
Evidence?
And lovely use of "arty farty" too.
Evidence?
not really evidence,but I've often heard radio and TV presenters making a joke about being rubbish at maths, or not understanding physics. If they said "I've never seen a play by Shakespeare" they'd be laughed out of the studio.
It amazes me that amongst the arty farty professions an admission of innumeracy is seen as a badge of honour.
Not something that i've ever come across, but then I've only been paid to be arty farty for 25 years. Guess I'm just not mixing with the right crowd.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-12525317
No mention of arty fart though, so wouldn't pass the pedent test.
, marine biology is a valuable field, was this a joke?
I was saying even some science degree courses wont really lead to work in that area [ to counter the all arts degrees are useless]for the majority of students I was not saying science degrees or marine biology is useless- read the context or apologies if i was expressing it poorly.
I know its useful as James Bond has a degree in it
YGM BTW
Love humanities grads....historians have a brilliant way of thinking. And they don't get A*s just by learning stuff
You dont get graded that way in degrees ..someone who taught or employed folk or read CV's or had a degree would know that. I cannot think why you made that error if your CV is as you claim.
I think you may be reading a layer of sarcasm into his/her post that wasn't there.
It amazes me that amongst the arty farty professions an admission of innumeracy is seen as a badge of honour.
Not something that i've ever come across, but then I've only been paid to be arty farty for 25 years. Guess I'm just not mixing with the right crowd.
You're Arty Farty, but never been to [i]The[/i] Party?
Thing that is great about science degrees is they really don't limit your area at all ime, bring good at critical thinking, maths and report writing are very wanted skills in many industries.
Junkyard at a modular level on my degree we got given A,B,C type grades.
Nicky Morgan - another lawyer..., yep I'll listen to her advice, NOT!
You're Arty Farty, but never been to The Party?
Apparently not. I can only assume that someone got the house number on my invite wrong.
I value both the sciences AND the arts. The arts are WHY life is worth living. The sciences are the tech to make it better and sustainable. Though I am an unashamed scientist/engineer, MrsHB combines science, music, drama (!)and art. We make sure our urchins appreciate both.
As an employer, I see far more candidates who can talk, but can't calculate than I do students who can do, but can't communicate. So for CV's a good science/maths/core humanities wins out over some of the more "esoteric" subjects. But at the end of the day education is only worth what you can do with it, so if confidence and communication skills are zero then all the PhD's in the world will not get you a job.
What an utter moron.
I've just been spitting expletives across the keyboard.
It's better to spit expletives than split infinitives.
Apparently not. I can only assume that someone got the house number on my invite wrong
word of mouth only...
suburbanreuben - Member
It amazes me that amongst the arty farty professions an admission of innumeracy is seen as a badge of honour.
No formal maths or English qualifications beyond low cse grades but that's not a badge of honour as its simply not worth mentioning or irrelevant to getting an arts degree and then having a career and earning a very good wage, something me and the other half have done with a couple of degrees in graphic design, photography and an MA in printmaking.
Not everybody with an arts degree is going to go on to have a career in their chosen subject but does every science type student end up with a job relevant to what they study?
[i]The value of an education in a liberal arts college is not the learning of many facts, but the training of the mind to think of something that cannot be learned from textbooks. (Albert Einstein)[/i]
word of mouth only...
The graphic design community will be mildly annoyed by this obvious snub.
...but the CSSD grads will be ex[b]hil[/b]ar[i]ated[/i].
A levels in Art, Maths , and Physics. Just " celebrated" 25 years working in the television industry. Not sure which of my A levels contributed the most though.
Brian Eno mentions how the Arts made him who he is on [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06dcmxl#play ]the 6music John Peel Lecture here[/url]
She was speaking at a conference to encourage people to study Maths and Physics, so makes sense to point out that career choices and employability are generally greater for sciences. Or also true that employers regard sciences as the "hard" subjects. Whether that's strictly true or not is mute as what's important is what the person hiring you thinks.
The overall issue is the fact that in the West the humanities and the sciences are opposed to one another (the idea that you have to choose between the two at 16).
Alas, the 'best minds' I knew at uni, whether they had phds in chemistry or history, all ended up as lawyers anyway.
The overall issue is the fact that in the West the humanities and the sciences are opposed to one another (the idea that you have to choose between the two at 16).
In Britain, maybe. In the US it's possible to delay that "decision" until the late stages of your bachelor's degree course.
not really evidence,but I've often heard radio and TV presenters making a joke about being rubbish at maths, or not understanding physics. If they said "I've never seen a play by Shakespeare" they'd be laughed out of the studio.
Not evidence, but on University Challenge, Paxo generally looks astonished when someone can answer the simplest of science questions, whereas sneers when they don't recognise the opening bars from some obscure piece of classical music.
The overall issue is the fact that in the West the humanities and the sciences are opposed to one another (the idea that you have to choose between the two at 16).
Not sure I'd agree with that one. As far as secondary school education is concerned my Highers are evenly split between Maths, Physics, Chemistry for "science" and English, History, Music on the "arts/humanities" side.
Thing is it is far easier for a science person to have an interest in art, music, literature etc, than it is the other way round. How many historians have a keen interest in Quantum physics or genetics? Whereas for example I know some top scientists who play music in orchestras to a decent level (Grade 8). So generally IME (good) science folk tend to to be more rounded.
Thing is it is far easier for a science person to have an interest in art, music, literature etc, than it is the other way round.
It's really not. No one is expecting everyone to be fully versed in the minutia of Quantum physics, but being able to understand basic geometry (e.g. Pythagoras) and trigonometry shouldn't be too much to ask.
Interesting debate
I am involved with an event that promotes the STEM subjects - Curated by the lovely Maggie Philbin no less 🙂
There are genuinely lots of early teens who think that striving to be in the X factor is a good career path. Honestly.
Over the course of the day the participants (500 X 11-13 year olds approx) get to meet a bunch of scientists and engineers and actually discover what this maths/physics/chemistry stuff is used FOR.
Seeing the lights go on when these kids realise what is possible and what enablers the STEM subjects are is utterly fascinating. I still think we have an issue with the STEM subjects being presented in a dry way - all tweed sports jackets with elbow patches and nasal hair. The arts? well they're just always trendy aren't they?
TM
Basic geometry is so easy it's taught about the age of 12. How many arts students can explain something as essential as calculus?
A lot of teachers are awful for encouraging STEM subjects. Probably because most of them don't seem to have a clue about the world outside of their school. When I did open days at Uni all the daftest questions came from teachers, not the kids who were far more open minded.
How many arts students can explain something as essential as calculus?
Not sure that calculus is actually essential for most people let alone art students.
An oldie, but a goodie.
[img] 
[/img]
Manchester University in the late 70s produced the following:
Ben Elton (drama)
Lisa Meyer (drama)Young Ones
Nick Hamm (English), Hollywood director, Nick got a p poor degree but went on to be the youngest director at the RSC
Steve Hewlett (sciences), R4 Media Show, Guardian
Rik Mayall (drama)
Ade Edmondson (drama)
Dave Aaronovich (history) media figure
Rikki Tarascas, (drama) theatre and film director, Manchester Poly
They didn't seem to do too badly. Sure these stand out but it shows in can be done.
dragon - MemberHow many arts students can explain something as essential as calculus?
It takes 1 arts student to point out that calculus isn't essential.
How many arts students can explain something as essential as calculus?
I was an arts student (philosophy) and I can explain calculus, so at least one. I've never felt the need to use it since leaving school though.
Not sure that calculus is actually essential for most people let alone art students.
Neither is the history of the Russian revolution, although I'm quite glad I studied it at school.
Because it's difficult (impossible?) to quantify, we tend to miss the fact that a blend of both usually gives a better employee.
Troubleshooting complex systems can be equal parts engineering, art and witchcraft. I had a real fight in the dim and distant past to take Maths, Physics and English Lit at A level... it was expected I'd do Chemistry but I had no interest and reasoned English just couldn't be a bad choice. Glad I stuck with it too.
Arts degrees are useless?
I'll be sure to tell my sister in law that before she gets flown out to Dublin for a few hours work and flown home again. At her employers expense. Of course she has an RAD teaching qualification as well but that wouldn't have happened without the degree.
Exception perhaps but enough to prove "the rule" is a load of nonsense. Any degree is what you make of it, if you're mediocre in your field expect to do mediocre things. If you're exceptional on the other hand...
Oh and FWIW, as an engineer, Newton and Liebnitz can go fornicate themselves till the end of time. I don't suppose any of you purists still use slide rules either? Calculators? damn and blasted infernal machines, what's wrong with long division???
I run a 'successful' arts organisation. I use maths everyday, working out budgets, projecting income and approximating materials.
We also regularly work with scientists (It has been almost 10 years now) in the field of biology and bio ethics. I've grown quite used to diving into some quite technical papers in order to interpret them for an audience. I enjoy science as it challenges me, and broadens what we do as a company.
I don't think it is useful in the long term to divide education into 'subjects' -it puts us into silos far too early. Subjects are a convenient way to teach, but few of us work in an entirely scientific field, or in a rarified arts one. I wouldn't want to.