[Closed] BBC - Questiontime

bombadillo - junkyard, he will not be the 1st of last politician to be a lying ****er then will he. the most famous one being mrs thatcher.

Think Blair & New Labour would give her a good run for her money.

[url=

'Anglo-Saxons' came from Germany

'Normans' came from Normandy

'Celts' come from just about everywhere dependent upon who you talk to!

It's all arbitrary, ridiculous and utterly pointless to try to produce a hierarchy of peoples' rights based on where their ancestors lived.

as an MEP he will have to travel within Europe to countries where Holocaust denial is an offence and which, if I understand correctly, would then leave him open to prosecution.

Not as far as I am aware. David Irving for example, was convicted by an Austrian court for Holocaust denial speeches in Austria - not for what he said in Britain. I have no doubt that Nick Griffin would be fine as long as he didn't repeat the false claims in countries were it is illegal to do so. Furthermore, the fact that it was illegal deny Holocaust in some countries didn't stop him from making them in the first place. I think it is fair to conclude that Griffin realised it would be a PR disaster to repeat the false claims.

Ernie is right once more.

rogerthecat, i would not disagree mate.

From last night's QT programme it appeared the Nick Griffin is now "unsure" as to why he thought (or was it actually why he said in front of an audience?) those things. ...those things that would keep him out of mainstream public life and leave him open to prosecution.

Ernie/TJ - I would think that the issue regards David Irving would be that his case was prior to the introduction of the European Arrest Warrant

some interesting discussion here:

You all seemed to love Bonnie Greer but I thought she was terrible why did she get bogged in the argument about whether there is a large section of the aboriginal population living in this country or not this played right into Nick Griffins hands and made her look completely stupid.

This argument can go either way depending on which current historical theories are in the ascendancy and there really no way of tell without DNA testing every living person and extracting as much DNA from as many corpses as you can dig up.

Also surely its not the point if defining people by race is what the BNP do why is she trying to do it too.

You all seemed to love Bonnie Greer but I thought she was terrible why did she get bogged in the argument about whether there is a large section of the aboriginal population living in this country or not this played right into Nick Griffins hands and made her look completely stupid.

Despite the universal cries of how Griffin mad a **** of himself I suspect his supporters won't see it that way. He just got mobbed. I suspect the BNP will do quite nicely out of this and the "there's no such thing as british" stuff is the best propaganda they could hope for.

It's not about race though. It's about hand-outs. If there were no hand-outs for the 'working' class they'd have to do the jobs we use immigrants to fill. Get rid of benefits and I'd pay less tax and working class Nazis will be happy.

Next problem?

I would think that the issue regards David Irving would be that his case was prior to the introduction of the European Arrest Warrant

Well I'm not going to read all that stuff in your link ratty, but as I understand it, the European Arrest Warrant might have meant David Irving could have been extradited from the UK for Holocaust denial in Austria, rather than the Austrians having to wait until he was in the country. It doesn't suggest that he could have been put on trial for what he said in Britain.

Anyways ...... why should Nick Griffin be bothered about spending 3 years in prison for something he believes in ? He could be the new Nelson Mandela.

Glad to hear he got a shoeing (didn't watch as had much more interesting things to be doing) but I'm a little worried that his supporters (who probably didn't watch either) will only remember that NG actually got to have a go at playing politician on QT like the other "big boys" not the kicking that he got. Or the bnp may somehow manage to put some positive spin on it about getting ganged up on.

He could be the new Nelson Mandela.

Sorry doesn't scan.

ernie_lynch - Member

Isn't that the "unrestricted immigration" which is the fundamental right of EU citizens to the right to travel and work anywhere within the EU

It was "unrestricted". And Britain did not have to accept EU citizens from the new EU member countries at the time of enlargement. Britain did so, because the New Labour government chose to do so.

If choosing to abide by the rules which they have agreed to in joining an organisation such as the EU is in fact choosing in the context you infer then yes....yes they did choose. The choice was in fact one between accepting now, or accepting later. Not to allow or not to allow.

by mixing the entirely seperate issues of Asylum Seekers, Economic Migrants from non EU countires

You can't simply make wild allegations like that - copy and paste where I have done that.

Well yes you are. Firstly, the UK has some of the most strict border controls of EU member state. Try driving through Europe and then tell me about how many times you get stopped at any border apart from ours. Secondly, given the fact that there is NO QUESTION whatsover of the UK or any other member state being able to legitimately block the movement of EU citizens either for work, migration or simply travel, except for temporarily your statement is as I said disingenuous and frankly rabble rousing.

.

BTW : "places you firmly into the BNP/UKIP/Tory Boy school of politics"

Why ? Because I am prepared to talk about "immigration" ?

No,becuase you are dealing in half truths and making them into somethign that they are not.

......and people are mystified as to why the BNP are doing so well

No not really, I think everyone is aware its due to ignorance on the part of their core audience and their aptitude for using half truths to perpetuate myths, much like the one you have been using.

Apparently he is contemplating complaining to the BBC as they abandoned the traditional format in favour of giving him a group kicking.

<slowhandclap>Well done Dimbleby, Straw, Huhne, Greer, Marzi and the BBC. You've handed him the martyrs card. Brlliant.</slowhandclap>

I pity the poor, hard-done-to, genocide victim 😆

Had he shone as a great orator and potential Fuhrer for the nation I doubt that he'd have been complaining.

You've handed him the martyrs card. Brlliant.

but isn't that their entire position ? Poor whities hard done by in their own country ?

I was cheering when Dimbleby started rattling of quotes to him, though I subsequently thought he was straying from his supposedly impartial position as chairbeing.

If they had not all been so wrapped up in proving he was a racist and anti-semitic they could have asked him about BNP policy on Transport, Education, Environment, law & Order, etc, etc all of which would have left his little flabby jaw wobbling in the breeze without a clue what to say, but no. Still seething half way through the following day - grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

but as I understand it, the European Arrest Warrant might have meant David Irving could have been extradited from the UK for Holocaust denial in Austria, rather than the Austrians having to wait until he was in the country. It doesn't suggest that he could have been put on trial for what he said in Britain.

An EAW was never issued against Irving, and as his arrest was fairly early after the introduction of EAW's there might have been some teething issues (?) - however the parliamentary report states that one was issued by a German court against an Australian Holocaust denier, Gerald Toben, for publication on the internet, which resulted in his arrest whilst in transit at Heathrow - however was dismissed by the court as being invalid as it did not give enough information, there certainly doesn't appear to be a bar against EAW's being issued against an EU citizen for something illegal in the applicant state that are not illegal in the other. the other point is that although Britain might refuse to extradite someone for an alleged crime committed here under an EAW, it might prevent that person from travelling abroad for fear of arrest in another EU state under the same warrant - Its certainly an interesting legal topic and its [i]possible[/i] that he had a fair point in refusing to explain himself on that basis.

Berm Bandit - I asked you to copy and paste where I am guilty of, quote : [i]"mixing the entirely seperate issues of Asylum Seekers, Economic Migrants from non EU countires"[/i] and you are obviously completely unable to do so. Because it is clearly total bollox.

So you choose instead to waffle on about : [i]"the UK has some of the most strict border controls of EU member state"[/i] as if that has anything to do with it........So ? So what ?

I see that now at least you do admit that Britain [u]didn't have to[/u] allow massive immigration from the new member states at the time of enlargement. But you try to wriggle out of it by claiming that it would have been necessary to do it later - so it made no difference. Of course it bleedin did.

At the time of EU enlargement in 2004 only 3 countries, Britain, Ireland, and Denmark, accepted workers from the new member states. This meant that the scope for finding work for say, unemployed Poles, was rather limited - they couldn't choose to go to France, Germany, or Italy, for example. So surprise surprise, hundreds of thousands came to Britain. If we had waited until all other EU countries had fully opened their borders, then there might have been a more even spread of immigration.

And anyway, Britain is not legally bound to stay in the EU. And if it is not in our favour to do so, then there is no reason at all why we should not leave.

I accept that immigration into the UK is important, but it needs to been done in a sensible and controlled way. And very importantly, it has to be done in an ethical way. So if immigrants are to be allowed in, then priority should be given to some over others. I believe we have far more responsibility towards immigrants from places such as Nigeria and the Indian sub-continent, than immigrants from Lithuania and Hungary - wtf do we owe them ? Also priority should be given to asylum seekers who are fleeing persecution. Sadly UK immigration policies stink of racism.

because you are dealing in half truths and making them into something that they are not.

Yeah right.........you mean because I am prepared to talk about an "untouchable" subject, ie immigration ? Is that why you accuse me of, quote : "rabble rousing" ? ffs

Listen mate, I've got things to do, so if you bother to reply to my post, I doubt whether I will be arsed to respond back.

Z11 - thought that may be the case.
This raises the question of timing - when did he "change his mind" and was it prior to any laws being passed that would have rendered him liable to criminal prosecution? And, can you be retrospectively charged with something that was not an offence at the time it was done?

Exactly Simon. He tries to participate in TV panel debating show and gets picked on by the bigger boys. Sort of proves his twisted point that "indigenous" white brits can't get a fair deal in their own country!

Like rogerthecat says, if they hadn't been so preoccupied in showing how clever they all were, yes I'm looking at you Straw, and concentrated on debating their other policies then they would have shown him for what he is, a resentful little man with nothing of value to add.

Again its because our current bunch of politicians are so shit at leading that these parties emerge. Who do you really think runs the country? Labour? Gordon Brown? The queen? Fat chance, its big businesses and they are well know tyrannical practices.

Some examples to consider: who ruled before hitler, mugabe, hussein? Not a clue because they were shit.

Its simple psychology. People look for leaders and when there are going through a phase where leadership is needed but not forthcoming they tend to accept a leader that they wouldn't otherwise touch with a bargepole.

I bet he does respond

roger the cat that is axactley how i feel what ****in waste of a chance to let him hang himself.

And there we have it. Interview with some of his constituents on Radio 5 Live, "I felt sorry for him, he didn't stand a chance." "I didn't like the BNP before but I thought it was disgraceful the way he was treated". These are not "exact" quotes but are pretty close. Better result for the loverly Nick than many would like I think.

strooth really 🙄

coyote
this was always gonna be the case.
if certain members of the public had not put on a big anti NG display, if the fuss had not been so great, if the anti whatever protesters had not had a tissy fit, the whole thing would have gon e on not as well noticed/reported.

mm, bit like what i said yesterday realy. storm in a tea cup.

I was decried earlier for saying "Who really gives a ****". If more people had shown him more indifference. Maybe allowed him to speak. Run QT with the normal lack of hype and open format. Then maybe, just maybe he would have come across as the pitiful empty vessel that he undoubtably is. QT and the bully-boys have done him a great favour.

No Bombadillo, I think you'll find what you said yesterday was - "just watched the news, absolute disgust at the left wing do good hooligans that have got nothing better to do than hound and harras a politician who has been elected by the british public.disgusting behaviour."
Slight difference, I think.

Barnsleymitch - what happened in the Barnsley by election last week? Saw the counting but never saw the result?

[u]The disappointing thing is that showing someone to be a nasty, bigoted individual who doesn't believe in fairness for all doesn't necessarily put some people off. [/u]

I'm as British as anyone, but the representatives of the BNP do not speak for me.

As I'd said earlier, It would have been better to allow BNP man to give his views on day-to-day issues after the initial discrediting of him. Having said that, a lot of "repressed-and-hard-done-to-because-the-Daily Mail-and-Express-tell-them-they-are' white British people would probably like the sound of his policies, no matter how unfeasible or unpleasant 🙄

[i]First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out for me.[/i]

mitch, and read what i said later.
you and your protest about anything people blew it all out of proportion and look what happened.
**** me he will end up with a knighthood if the soft left carry on like they are.. 🙄

I'm as British as anyone, but the BNP do (sp) does 🙂 not speak for me.

rogerthecat - it's often been said that if you dressed a donkey in a red jacket in Barnsley, it would get voted in, and while that's still true (up to a point), the BNP got a large amount of the vote here - shameful, bloody shameful.

bombadillo - junkyard, he will not be the 1st of last politician to be a lying ****er then will he. the most famous one being mrs thatcher.

you are correct mate. i stand corrected.

OK - I've made it clear here with previous comments, that I think the BNP are an odious bunch of cretins, for both their disgusting racist policies, and also separately the fact that I despise their totalitarian social and economic policies - however I'll defend their right to free speech, simply because I honestly believe that unless they are actually breaking the law, they ought to have that freedom.

I also think that one has to be carful in terminology, as there's a strong argument that the BNP is not Fascist but National Socialist, equally as disgusting an ethos but a fine and technical distinction that I think has significant merit -

I don't think its actually wrong for Griffin, or anyone to question the exact figures involved in the genocide of the Jews and other racial and social minorities during WW2, as long as they do not try to deny that millions were killed - the figure of six million does appear to be an estimate, however its pretty irrelevant (in so much as the death of this many people could ever be called irrelevant) whether it was four, five, six or seven million, the horror and gravity of the crime involved remains beyond comprehension or excuse. However I realise the reason exactly why they choose to call it into question, and preventing the debate does not make it go away, what it needs is robust argument in return to prove or disprove the figures and rip apart his claims.

Its also fair for people to question the policies of immigration and multiculturalism, without being [i]automatically [/i]labelled as racist, or critisise any and all religions for things that they say without being labelled as racist - there are valid concerns and debates to be had about the direction and changes that culture has taken in our country over the past generation, some of which may involve race, religion and immigration, and many other debates that do not involve those topics, but other ones that may cause offence such as sex, crime and poverty - all of them require open, honest and thorough debate without censorship for fear of someone taking offence.

Whats needed, is extensive and analytical breakdown and critique of what Griffin and his mates say - let them say it, then publish exactly what the counter argument is - just like Dimbelby took apart his claims last night when he claimed he was misquoted - the best way of dealing with the BNP is absolute sunlight and transparency, trying to close down the debate and hope that the nutters will go away has not worked, the bigots thrive on ignorance and intolerance, the solution to this is information and education through debate, however painful the discussions may be.

Freeee-eeee-eeee nick griffin...

Sorry doesn't scan.

But I think you'll find

[b]Kiiiiii-iiiick Nick in the balls[/b]

does a bit

My god - has someone hacked Zulus account?

Thats about the most sensible thing I have seen you pot!

One point - Griffen has made it clear he believes Auschwitz and the other death camps were a hoax. He is not questioning the numbers killed - he clearly stated that there was no policy of mass killings - no "final solution"

and also separately the fact that I despise their totalitarian social and economic policies - however I'll defend their right to free speech, simply because I honestly believe that unless they are actually breaking the law, they ought to have that freedom.

That's where you're going wrong. free speech and democracy are not for everyone, only for those that ernie thinks deserve it. The fact that griffen actually has some form of democratic mandate is lost on him because he doesn't believe in any form of democracy not sanctioned by him. A bit like Stalin.

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BigButSlimmerBloke - Member

and also separately the fact that I despise their totalitarian social and economic policies - however I'll defend their right to free speech, simply because I honestly believe that unless they are actually breaking the law, they ought to have that freedom.

That's where you're going wrong. free speech and democracy are not for everyone, only for those that ernie thinks deserve it. The fact that griffen actually has some form of democratic mandate is lost on him because he doesn't believe in any form of democracy not sanctioned by him. A bit like Stalin.
Posted 11 minutes ago # Report-Post

LOL @ BigButtSlimmerBloke !

A whole post dedicated just to me, and not even in response to a specific point which I've made....... just a generalised personal attack ! 😀

Although I'm touched, I really don't think I deserve so much attention !

I'm happy to make my point and leave it at that. Perfectly content in the knowledge that it will almost certainly have minimal if any, effect on the discussion. But presumably BigBut, you consider all my posts too dangerous to be ignored !

I'll tell you what BigButSlimmerBloke, why don't you restrict your comments/challenges/attacks on me, to specific points I make, and I am sure others can work out for themselves whether or not I stand for "truth, justice, and the American way". Don't insult their intelligence by assuming that you have to do their thinking for them.

It's nice to know that you give me so much credit - undeserved imo I hasten to add, but try to refrain using a thread on Nick griffin, to give your personal opinions on ernie_lynch.....start another thread if you want to do that.
Now, is there a specific point you want to make concerning one of my posts ?

start another thread if you want to do that.

[url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/a-serious-question-for-ernie-lynch#post-788968 ]someone tried that but no response :-([/url]

just a generalised personal attack !

think of it as a win 🙂 I always do.

Yeah right.........you mean because I am prepared to talk about an "untouchable" subject, ie immigration ? Is that why you accuse me of, quote : "rabble rousing" ? ffs

Listen mate, I've got things to do, so if you bother to reply to my post, I doubt whether I will be arsed to respond back.

I'm not particularly looking to extend this particular thread as its original issues have been well debated. However, I couldn't let this tripe go unanswered.

The response is very simple ernie. I have already responded to your point, and doing the online equivalent of beating your chest and being all macho will neither act as a sufficent response, nor will it intimidate me. I like you have better things to do, but I will not be browbeaten by some self professed expert on all matters who likes the sound of his own keyboard!