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If the Scottish parliament was like Westminster, I wouldn't want independence - but it's not. We have a voting system that recognises the minority views, and being based in Scotland it represents the views of Scottish people.
It will end up the same, representing the Central Belt as it does at present.
It only represents the views of [i]some[/i] of the Scottish people.
Watching and listening to AS being interviewed he comes across as an arrogant bully who when his ego is boosted by those daft enough to give him what he wants will rue the day. Once he starts to make the tough decisions that the Scottish people don't like what will his supporters do and say then?
Won't all be a bed'o Thistles 😉
Can you tell me/us exactly how everything will suddenly become better/fairer or whatever the current buzz words/cliches are? How an ageing population is going to afford the miracle? How to stop the poorer getting poorer at the cost of the rich getting richer?
with you on that one robbespierre as are most of the people I know.robbespierre - Member
Really can't stand these debates.
And we've got another 8 months of this p1sh to go!I am sad to say that we are going to be left with a very divided and unhappy Scotland whatever way the vote goes. This is going to get very bitter. I have to turn off the TV/radio everytime Salmond/Sturgeon et al come on, because I feel sick.
It only represents the views of some of the Scottish people.
Nope - proportional representation vs. first-past-the post. It's a better system.
Again, there's this obsession with Alex Salmond. After independence, Scots can vote for whoever we like, and the SNP will be one party among many. With PR, it's very hard to get an absolute majority* - most likely an independent Scotland would have a coalition, and Salmond can retire happy that his life's work is done.
*The fact that the SNP got an absolute majority under a system specifically designed by Donald Dewar to prevent the SNP getting as majority says quite a bit about how popular the SNP is. Salmond is the only UK leader to have a mandate from the electorate.
I am sad to say that we are going to be left with a very divided and unhappy Scotland whatever way the vote goes.
Why?
Aside from internet trolls and sensitive souls the debate so far (and I mean broadly not in STW!) has been sensible, measured and largely free of vitriol. Scotland is not the Balkans
I think we can agree that no parliament represents the views of everyone- that's inevitable unless you're Robbie the Pict. but that an independent scottish parliament would certainly represent the views of more scottish people than Westminster. Especially in the current climate where Westminster is pandering to the right while polls say Scotland is actually moving further away from that. (the rise in UKIP support which everyone got so excited about being more than offset by the simultaneous fall in Tory support)
I am sad to say that we are going to be left with a very divided and unhappy Scotland whatever way the vote goes.Why?
Aside from internet trolls and sensitive souls the debate so far (and I mean broadly not in STW!) has been sensible, measured and largely free of vitriol. Scotland is not the Balkans
What has the Balkans got to do with it?
The bitterness is there - on both sides - already.
I feel it. And there is a long way to go.
I'm embarassed for Scotland. I actually find myself hoping that Scottish athletes fail at the Commonwealth Games, Scotland will get repeatedly humped at football and Andy Murray won't win Wimbledon so that the moronic "feel good factor" nationalists won't swing to the Yes camp.
What has the Balkans got to do with it?
I can't see Scotland turning into a war zone no matter what happens, can you?
The bitterness is there - on both sides - already.
I feel it. And there is a long way to go.
It might be because of where I live and work, but I haven't see any real bitterness, certainly nothing of the sort that would lead to any problems. Lots of heated debate yes, but no hatred of the other camp or anything serious. Just a lot of frustration at the information and debate.
I'm embarassed for Scotland. I actually find myself hoping that Scottish athletes fail at the Commonwealth Games, Scotland will get repeatedly humped at football and Andy Murray won't win Wimbledon so that the moronic "feel good factor" nationalists won't swing to the Yes camp.
You're embarrassed? Why? Good for you on hoping our athletes fail. It's pretty but it affects no one else, so please crack on with that.
What has the Balkans got to do with it?
Err, Yugoslavia's ("The Balkans") transition into a series of independent states was a bit messy, a couple of fairly major wars, involving lots of countries and thousands of deaths.
I'm suggesting this scenario is fairly unlikely if Scotland becomes independent from the rest of the UK.
But you knew that didn't you?
I'm embarassed for Scotland. I actually find myself hoping that Scottish athletes fail at the Commonwealth Games, Scotland will get repeatedly humped at football and Andy Murray won't win Wimbledon so that the moronic "feel good factor" nationalists won't swing to the Yes camp.
Well that's just sad
And look you have upset Andy
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*The fact that the SNP got an absolute majority under a system specifically designed by Donald Dewar to prevent the SNP getting as majority says quite a bit about how popular the SNP is. Salmond is the only UK leader to have a mandate from the electorate.
Wrong. It showed how unpopular the other parties were.
Labour were a tired party who had been in Government for 11+ years, The Tories were the tories and the Lib Dems went into coalition with the Tories!!
Anyway, as I said, I hate this debate, so this is my last post on it.
Anyway, as I said, I hate this debate, so this is my last post on it.
Andy likes this 😀
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Wrong. It showed how unpopular the other parties were.
Labour were a tired party who had been in Government for 11+ years, The Tories were the tories and the Lib Dems went into coalition with the Tories!!
Possibly some truth to that, but you can't say for sure.
The fact that the Scottish Labour, Lib Dems and Tories are (slightly) different entities north of the border means I don't think that your arguments really stack up.
Anyway, as I said, I hate this debate, so this is my last post on it.
Shame, I can't say I'm disappointed though.
robbespierre - Member
...I hate this debate, so this is my last post on it.
Thank you
Scotland is not the Balkans
I was in a pub in Leslie, Glenrothes last night.
I'm not so sure they're that different.
>exits blatant troll mode
I was in a pub in Leslie once too. The name escapes me but the pub had a special atmosphere ...you walked into the pub and immediately wished you were barred. 😕
Other pubs in Leslie were fine.
On sport and BBC bias, in a light hearted poll, is there anyone in the yes camp hoping for a good showing from England at the World Cup, and wall to wall Linekar and Lawrenson?
Or will the BBC use Hanson, Souness and Andy Gray for punditry during England games? 🙂
On sport and BBC bias, in a light hearted poll, is there anyone in the yes camp hoping for a good showing from England at the World Cup, and wall to wall Linekar and Lawrenson?
Don't care.
Or will the BBC use Hanson, Souness and Andy Gray for punditry during England games?
No idea, aren't Hanson a teen rock band from a few years back. Never heard of the other two.
If those named are the BBC team for the world cup I ll be watching on ITV. Probably wont see much of it and since Scotland are not involved the games I do see should be fairly stress free experience. I won't be supporting anyone just looking for good football and if the underdog can beat a few of the big teams so much the better.
I reserve the right to mock them every time they mention 1966 though, especially when it's in games with no england involvement.
1966, you mean the year England won the World Cup and the Jules Rimet Trophy? Semi finalists in 1990 too. Don't forget Rugby World Cup winners 2003.... Sometimes you have to be at the party to fully enjoy it 8)
No, I meant the Packers beating the Browns, what a game. Was there football on? Weird that nobody ever mentions it!
If the Scottish parliament was like Westminster, I wouldn't want independence - but it's not. We have a voting system that recognises the minority views, and being based in Scotland it represents the views of Scottish people.It only represents the views of some of the Scottish people.
Nope - proportional representation vs. first-past-the post. It's a better system.
The Scottish parliament doesn’t use a PR system though! The majority of seats are voted for using exactly the same first past the post system as Westminster and the rest using a weighted form of PR which favours the larger parties. So you can get the situation where a party gets 44% of the popular vote, but gains a large majority.
So you can get the situation where a party gets 44% of the popular vote, but gains a large majority.
The SNP got 44%-45% of both the regional and constituency votes last time around and have 53% of the seats in parliament. A majority, but not a large one.
Compared to the UK election where the Tories got 35% of the vote and 47% of the seats.
So it's not pure PR, but I'd suggest it's more representative the the Westminster FPTP system.
Agreed it probably is more representative than the FPTP system, and I think it provides a good compromise between the extremes of pure FPTP and PR.
My post was mainly in response to the claim that the Scottish system is better than the Westminster one because it offer “proportional representation” and “recognises minority views”; both of which are not true.
To be blunt the scottish system is better than the Westminster ones because the politicians don't put quite so much effort into being ****s.
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-26065760 ]BAE to Invest 200m in Glasgow [/url]
This was originally reported as a 200m investment by BAE into it's Scotstoun facilities. It's a much more negative headline about closures rather than investment. Investment which is obviously happening despite the referendum.
And here is [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26071166 ]David Cameron not getting involved[/url], again.