Forum menu
The bedroom tax is a disgrace. At best its badly thought out, I mean who would deliberately implement a policy that saves no money while forcing people out of their homes.
And who in Scotland voted for it?
Absolutely Nae ****
That's who.
That is why the bedroom tax is important. Beyond the basic unfairness of it , its a prime example of the democratic deficit we face.
And who in Scotland voted for it?Absolutely Nae ****
How do you know that? Scotland were part of the population that elected this government, like it or not.
Personally I thought it was an ill thought out idea but it seemed to have a lot of popular support.
When I lived in the Central Belt, there seemed to be a lot of resentment towards the "neds" who lived off benefits.
I will say this again, and no doubt be flamed for it and accused of trolling, IME Scotland is not a very tolerant Country. A lot of bigotry and casual racism. On STW all the Scots are painting a very different picture.
Poor old wee eck, it's the accountants turn to show their "bias" today.....
Workers would face “major uncertainty” over the future of their pensions in an independent Scotland, according to an expert report warning the SNP has failed to answer a series of key questions. The Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland (ICAS) said Alex Salmond’s White Paper had failed to address fundamental issues about state, public sector and personal pension plans.
Honestly, we expect too much. To make up stuff on pensions as well as the economy, taxation, spending, education etc is too much for one party surely?
IME Scotland is not a very tolerant Country. A lot of bigotry and casual racism. On STW all the Scots are painting a very different picture.
Well thankfully anecdote does not equal evidence.
Scotland and England's differing views on EU membership are probably more illustrative than a single opinion.
Of course an individuals experience may vary, Nigel Farage I'm sure thinks the Scots are an intolerant bunch, but really that says more about him.
Well thankfully anecdote does not equal evidence.
I can post numerous links to news reports of sectarian viloence and religious bigotry and extremism.
Sending bullets to a football manager?
Protesting about providing a ferry service on a Sunday?
Not allowing swimming pools to open on a Sunday?
Yes it's a minority. However, it's very much part of Scottish culture.
Yes it's a minority. However, it's very much part of Scottish culture.
How can you say that with a straight face? There a loads of idiots who protest with the BNP and EDL in England but I'd never say "I know it's a minority, however, it's very much part of English culture."
Yes, it's a minority. As pointed out earlier in the thread the number of sectarian crimes is actually very low. Stories like that appear in the press a lot because the sell news papers. And Neil Lennon's rhetoric and behaviour at the time was bound to get him to some bother (not saying it was acceptable) what ever his religion and background.
I can post numerous links to news reports of sectarian viloence and religious bigotry and extremism.
And the best selling newspaper in England is the Daily Mail
I could play this game all day
And Neil Lennon's rhetoric and behaviour at the time was bound to get him to some bother
Another part of the problem. Celtic idiots are as bad as Rangers idiots.
The BNP and EDL are not considered "acceptable" by the vast majority. The Free Church of Scotland is part of the "establishment".
A policeman wouldn't get into bother if he was a member of the Free Church but he would if he was in the BNP.
And the best selling newspaper in England is the Daily Mail
Yes England has plenty of arseholes.
The point I was making, yet again, was the "left leaning" open minded Scots who post on here are not at all typical. You all keep painting an image of this Workers Utopia you will create once independent. You are deluded. The problems you are denying exist will only be magnified once you can't blame the English for some of the problems.
The BNP and EDL are not considered "acceptable" by the vast majority.
How many BNP councillors have there been in England?
How many have there been in Scotland?
Lets not even start on the recent rise of UKIP.
Do you have any actual evidence beyond anecdotes and isolated incidents involving clowns in the "Old Firm" to support the assertion that Scotland is "not a very tolerant country"
isolated incidents
They are not isolated. The Orange marches cause major problems every year, to a calendar.
Scotland has a tiny ethnic minority.
Why is that if your so open?
Also, you will only really find problems with the BNP and the like when this populations grows.
From the scotland.gov.uk website.
African 0.6 14 30,000
Asian/Asian Scottish/Asian British 2.7 67 141,000
Caribbean or Black 0.1 3 7,000
Mixed/Multiple ethnic groups 0.4 9 20,000
Other ethnic group 0.3 7 14,000
White 96.0 n/a 5,084,000
All Minority Ethnic Population 4.0 100 211,000
All Population 100 n/a 5,295,000
I really can't believe you are seriously equating the BNP and the EDL with the Free Church of Scotland.
Just in case other people don't know the Free Church is entirely separate from the Church of Scotland.
Scotland has a tiny ethnic minority.
Why is that if your so open?
Who knows? Maybe most of the UK's immigrants are heading to London or Birmingham for instance? You have evidence to say people aren't moving to Scotland due to us being bigoted.
The Orange marches cause major problems every year, to a calendar.
Major problems? Sometimes get stuck behind a march, but that's pretty rare and the marches are a lot smaller than they were when I was a kid*. Used to be all down Maryhill Road - now it's one band of spotty youths, half a dozen fat blokes with orange sashes and beetroot faces, and a dozen track-suited followers.
It's more sad than anything.
*They used to come up our road. Fishing line tied across the road at ankle height was very amusing...
You have evidence to say people aren't moving to Scotland due to us being bigoted.
*Waves as someone who moved to Scotland.
Just for the record, I met my first bigot the other day(since moving in 2010). Far behind my bigot per year tally experienced living in England.
There seemed to be quite a few angry Scots that day, and they wasn't annoyed at the English fella.
I've said it before, but will say it again. The Scots have proven themselves to be a sorted, friendly and welcoming folk.
I've said it before, but will say it again. The Scots have proven themselves to be a sorted, friendly and welcoming folk.
Course we are, after all, we are all Jock Tamson's Bairns
"Course we are, after all, we are all Jock Tamson's Bairns"
If he keeps going at this rate we'll soon a be leigh Griffiths bairns.
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26028481 ]BP Continue Investment in Scotland![/url]
Oh wait, that's not what the headline really says, but you spin it either way I guess. Union supporter wants UK to stay together and the (lack of a proper) currency debate is causing some uncertainty, but they're continuing to invest. Anything we didn't know already?
richmtb - MemberThe bedroom tax is a disgrace. At best its badly thought out, I mean who would deliberately implement a policy that saves no money while forcing people out of their homes.
And who in Scotland voted for it?
Absolutely Nae ****
That's who.
That is why the bedroom tax is important. Beyond the basic unfairness of it , its a prime example of the democratic deficit we face.
Aside from the 412,855 people who voted Conservative, and the 465,471 who voted Lib Dem, you mean?
and the 465,471 who voted Lib Dem
I don't think anyone voted for them based on what they might of done if they got in a Tory led coalition....
the 412,855 people who voted Conservative
16% of the electorate in Scotland. Hardly a ringing endorsement. How many of those were people affected by the bedroom tax, I don't know, but I reckon there would be some.
Aside from the 412,855 people who voted Conservative, and the 465,471 who voted Lib Dem, you mean?
Well done your Google foo is strong.
I think suggesting that Lib Dem voters in Scotland support the bedroom tax is tenuous at best. I think I can say with some certainty that it wasn't part of the Lib Dem manifesto.
What percentage of the electorate voted Conservative?
Even then its a rather moot point as only an absolute fool would support a taxation policy that actual costs taxpayers money and I don't think even Scottish Conservative voters fall into that category.
Even then its a rather moot point as only an absolute fool would support a taxation policy...
Only a fool would believe a cut in benefits cut was a tax. 😆
Only a fool would believe a cut in benefits cut was a tax.
Yes done like a kipper, the point still stands though. A change in policy designed to reduce spending that actually increases it is none too clever, a bit like me apparently!
BPs investment was signed off ages ago, and the projects are mid-stage so would carry on whatever the decision. However, rumour around the North Sea is that the majors are reducing spend as it's not so attractive anymore, and that they are looking to sell or get shot of assets. So whether it's future UK or future Scotland looking at the tax receipts, there is chance they won't be as good as predicted.
However, rumour around the North Sea is that the majors are reducing spend as it's not so attractive anymore, and that they are looking to sell or get shot of assets. So whether it's future UK or future Scotland looking at the tax receipts, there is chance they won't be as good as predicted.
This is true, on going costs are getting higher as the age of most of the infrastructure is getting on a bit. I think most of the estimates on Oil and Gas fronts factor in this in, no? Either way, it's a nice bonus to have, the economy etc wouldn't dependant on it.
Doesnt really matter whether the spare room subsidy is a tax or a benefit cut. It is an obviously unfair policy which is causing great distress to many. The party that imposed this policy got 16% of the scottish vote in 2010. This is in todays independent
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/big-lie-behind-the-bedroom-tax-families-trapped-with-nowhere-to-move-face-penalty-for-having-spare-room-8745597.html ]null
sorry broken link the article is actually from aug last year
This is from the independent though
[url=.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/scottish-national-party-attempts-to-scrap-the-bedroom-tax-north]bye bye bedroom tax[/url]
It's also worth pointing out that, even when the Scottish government found the money to pay the bedroom tax for everyone affected in Scotland, the Westminster government has been deliberately obstructionist when it comes to getting the money to the people who need it.
The BP thing - so BP is going to pull out of Scotland and go drill for oil in England instead? It's pointless pontificating - of course businesses want stability, and a right-wing government is of course more popular with them.
To go back to the BBC bias issue.I heard a bulletin on 6music where they said that the head of BP had spoken out against independence, no mention was made of his making it clear that this was his personal opinion and not BP policy,nor did 6music play the dialogue.
"BP confirms investment in North Sea" doesn't have the same ring to it I suppose.
Meanwhile in "not very tolerant" Scotland the Same Sex Marriage bill passed 105 to 18. For those keeping score it passed 366 to 161 in Westminster
To be fair BBC covered BPs investment went it was announced a few years ago, there has been nothing new announced for a while and unlikely to be for the foreseeable future. The reality is the North Sea isn't looking very attractive for majors right now which is why Bob Dudleys comments do matter to an extent.
Yesscotland, at it again:
"With independence, the continued use of sterling has the overwhelming support of the people of Scotland [b]and the public in the rest of the UK,[/b]" a spokesman said.[b]
Oh really? Hmmm.....
Now that's a trick they haven't pulled before. And the BBC bias - again unchallenged!! 😉
Where does your quote come from THM ?
gordimhor - Member
Well let's see there's....the rise in prices at the supermarket after independence ...the list goes on .....it's tough having to report this pish without laughing .
Gordi, and now the bloody FT are at this pish as well. Where do you reckon they source this rubbish from?
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b8f05d3c-8cfa-11e3-ad57-00144feab7de.html#axzz2sHJsLuAB
Still the business schools could have some news case studies in parallel imports coming up. Compare tesco in Ireland with sainburys in Scotland....
I can understand the point about unit costs perfectly well, however the cost of distribution around the central belt from distribution centres that are already in the central belt shouldnt rise. As for me and those like me the nearest supermarket is just over 20 miles away, as far as local shopping is concerned there is only a Co-op which doesnt operate a national pricing policy anyway.
Robert Peston wrote this
[url= http://bbc.co.uk/news/business-25300398?oo=8066 ]Food prices in Scotland[/url]
Where did you find the statement from the yes spokesman?
whatnobeer - MemberI don't think anyone voted for them based on what they might of done if they got in a Tory led coalition....
16% of the electorate in Scotland. Hardly a ringing endorsement. How many of those were people affected by the bedroom tax, I don't know, but I reckon there would be some.
Posted 5 hours ago # Report-Post
richmtb - MemberWell done your Google foo is strong.
I think suggesting that Lib Dem voters in Scotland support the bedroom tax is tenuous at best. I think I can say with some certainty that it wasn't part of the Lib Dem manifesto.
What percentage of the electorate voted Conservative?
Even then its a rather moot point as only an absolute fool would support a taxation policy that actual costs taxpayers money and I don't think even Scottish Conservative voters fall into that category.
Posted 5 hours ago # Report-Post
Well 36% of Scottish voters voted for the parties we have in government, and they together enacted this policy.
The Scottish Lib Dems voted against Labour's motion on scrapping the 'tax'. Over a quarter of Scottish labour MPs didn't even bother to turn up for the vote on it either. If [i]all[/i] the Labour MPs had, they probably would have won the vote, as they lost the vote by 26 and 43 failed to show!
So the Conservatives brought in the bedroom tax as it was in their manifesto, the Liberals brought it in even though it was not in their manifesto. Labour mps couldn't be bothered to oppose it.All the above parties are in the no camp. Vote Yes to get rid of the bedroom tax.
retro83 - MemberWell 36% of Scottish voters voted for the parties we have in government, and they together enacted this policy.
Absolutely nobody voted for the Lib Dems we have in government- people voted for the different Lib Dems that existed before the election
Northwind - Member
Absolutely nobody voted for the Lib Dems we have in government- people voted for the different Lib Dems that existed before the election
Well you could say that about any party that makes an unpopular decision when in government. I'm sure that not many Labour voters wanted to go to war in a faraway land based on dubious evidence. They still voted them in though. Same with the Lib Dems, they made an unpopular decision with getting into bed with the Conservatives, then continuing to cuddle up to them for the rest of their term in office.
gordimhor - MemberSo the Conservatives brought in the bedroom tax as it was in their manifesto, the Liberals brought it in even though it was not in their manifesto. Labour mps couldn't be bothered to oppose it.All the above parties are in the no camp. Vote Yes to get rid of the bedroom tax.
Are you implying that Scottish politicians will become trustworthy if they report only to Hollyrood and not Westminster?
Also Labour and the Lib Dems have both said they will scrap the 'tax' if elected.
In any case, the 'bedroom tax' seems like a rather minor point to argue on. I'd be more concerned with Scotland's financial services industry. Hint: where does 90% of that business come from? How many does it employ in Scotland (over 100,000) and how much does it contribute to GDP (over 10%).
retro83 - MemberWell you could say that about any party that makes an unpopular decision when in government.
It's not quite the same when that one unpopular decision is "become tories"
Ah, the hidden (or not so hidden) undercurrent emerges.
Interesting notion that people should vote for what parties are saying and that the parties should stick to implement that mandate rather than a more convenient version when in power (major exceptions eg war etc accepted.)
On that basis we could scrap the whole charade that is this current AS's vanity project. Since the whole book of dreams sets out the case for a devolved government to be formally linked via currency and other unions to other nations with the obvious compromises regarding economic independence (as even george galloway notes today) - [u]there is no party actually advocating independence.[/u] If no party is prepared to make the case for independence and we want to hold parties to what they promise, then the whole issue is little more that an expensive white elephant/vanity project.
Let's save the money now and call the whole charade off.t
Dear George's latest
So in what sense would Scotland be independent, he asked, “Actually, you would be less independent than you are now – because at least now you can vote the Tories out. The Tories will cut tax and therefore spending and the Scottish Government will have to follow suit. “Not only will you not get out from under the Tories by independence, you will be underr them for ever.”And he dismissed the idea an independent Scotland could choose a radical alternative. He said: “If you think that after independence Alex Salmond is going ditch the Queen, leave Nato, break with the pound and refuse to pay the debt once you’ve voted him in, you’ve got another think coming.
“Stop pretending Tommy Sheridan is going to be the prime minister of an independent Scotland. The prime minister is going to be Alex Salmond, and then it will be Nicola Sturgeon: Mrs Thatcher in a kilt.”
The mind boggles!
Something had gone drastically wrong if you're using quotes from George Galloway to support your argument.
“Actually, you would be less independent than you are now – because at least now you can vote the Tories out....“Not only will you not get out from under the Tories by independence, you will be underr them for ever.”
That's not true. The entire nation of Scotland could vote for Labour, SNP, Lib Dems, it won't make any difference unless most of the people in rUK do the same.
refuse to pay the debt once you’ve voted him in, you’ve got another think coming.
Again, no one is really suggesting we do that. It's being used to demonstrate the assets (as well as the liabilities) are part Scottish. As well as to try and show how stupid the 'we'll decide what you and you'll be grateful for it' type of argument is.
Stop pretending Tommy Sheridan is going to be the prime minister of an independent Scotland. The prime minister is going to be Alex Salmond, and then it will be Nicola Sturgeon: Mrs Thatcher in a kilt.”
Only if we continue to vote for them.
I know, I posted him slightly tongue in cheek.
But the point is a serious one. There is no case being put for "independence." Remember the original strategy of EU entry. The whole essence if Europe is to create greater levels if harmonisation and less independence across the region. Indeed the project cannot succeed without that as recent events have shown. The original idea was to be part of that.
Escaping the Tories or escaping the English is not independence. By all means fight for the former but at least be honest about what that fight is. His point in your first highlight comes from the currency union proposal. In his view, independence gives the Tories greater control s of the borders, currency union means that W'minster controls the main drivers of your Econ policy ergo, the Tories have even greater control over what goes in n of the border! It's his version of be careful what you wish for!!!!
There is no case being put for "independence."
Here's my case - it's pretty simple. I've lived under Thatcher, Major, Blair, Brown and Cameron. In no case did my vote in any Westminster election make any difference - nor did the vote of anyone I know, anyone in this city, or indeed anyone in Scotland.
Because the Westminster system is broken - the whole game is decided by a few undecided voters in a few marginal constituencies. It is not a democracy.
If the Scottish parliament was like Westminster, I wouldn't want independence - but it's not. We have a voting system that recognises the minority views, and being based in Scotland it represents the views of Scottish people.
The case for independence is simple - do you think the current system is working? Does Westminster produce politicians that most people like? No. The Scottish parliament does.
Really can't stand these debates.
And we've got another 8 months of this p1sh to go!
I am sad to say that we are going to be left with a very divided and unhappy Scotland whatever way the vote goes. This is going to get very bitter. I have to turn off the TV/radio everytime Salmond/Sturgeon et al come on, because I feel sick.