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Thats my point, I would argue forefoot (by this I mean anything from approximately midfoot forward) is natural and heel striking has to be learned.
I think I'd find forefoot strike very difficult in a pair of my old ultra cushioned asics just as heel striking in my trailgloves would feel very wrong. Perhaps things were a little different for me having done a lot of my early running in boots.
I don't believe it'll just happen naturally as you get quicker (it didn't for me).
I think Yeti's comment was suggesting it happens when running fast enough. Without meaning to sound rude, maybe you haven't reached this point yet?
It is a great way to run, however you must break in easily as I didn't and was in agony after a 10 miler 🙄 I now have a pair of Suacony triumph 9's which offer a gradual heel drop from a normal 12mm to 8mm. I will use these until I feel ready to move down to a more minimal shoe.
Good luck and have fun 😀
I think Yeti's comment was suggesting it happens when running fast enough. Without meaning to sound rude, maybe you haven't reached this point yet?
I know what his point was, it's just not true. Short of sprinting (as stated earlier by at least two posters), this will not just "happen".
Short of sprinting
What is this "sprinting" of which you speak?
I believe it will.
Epecially if you train with others and compete.
You'll be forced to learn efficiency.
How fast are you running BTW?
I know I'm rubbish at running, and I'm going to get better by running more.
I believe it will.
I know I'm rubbish at running,
So you've not started forefoot striking yet? At what point do you expect it to "kick in"?
How fast are you running BTW?
Similar to surfer by the sounds of it, although I couldn't maintain that pace in minimalist shoes for long if at all yet. I was a lot faster when I was younger and lighter, I'm on the down slope now though as my knees have seen better days.
Epecially if you train with others and compete.
You'll be forced to learn efficiency.
I find myself agreeing with you again TSY. Changes in style happen naturally for the most part. If you find yourself forcing to change your style then you are probably not training enough, I do think a lot of this is just marketing bollocks.
When I was a lad (!!!) we simply ran till our eyeballs popped! not scientif or even advisable but we spent more time running (and as a result running fastish!) and less time agonising over the latest fad!
Bear in mind the majority of runners just want comfortable and supportive footwear. The over cushined shoes are really just a straw man. The "barefoot" shoes are now becoming more complex and built up so in reality they match the ones most runners use anyway.
A fool and his money!
I can't run slower than 8 min miles... maybe it's something to do with how I already land my feet...
But I'm not yet doing sub 40m 10k's. So I'll keep running.
Frankly if you focus on cadence (in my exprience and Pirie's) then foot striking has a funny habit of taking care of itself!! Funny that!
We learned heel striking from footware, it is not a natural method!
And another thing!
Whats a "minimalist" shoe? is it the equivalent to "wild" swimming and "free" running?
or is it just what we used to call "running" shoes until a magazine/manufacturer re branded it?
It's a racing flat aimed at someone who [s]isn't quick[/s] doesn't race. 😉Whats a "minimalist" shoe?
Whats a "minimalist" shoe?
FFS look it up. What did you used to call free running BTW?
. I tend not to run slower than 7:15 pace all of the time. If I do run a bit slower my foot strike doesnt change, its not natural to heel strike at reduced speeds then forefoor strike as you go quicker. 7:15 pace is not sprinting in fact 5:00 is not sprinting (albeit very difficult at my age!)
Why have you changes your tune?
[i]This 'barefoot' thing isn't anything new in concept - good runners have been using the forefoot/midfoot strike for a loooong time.[/i]
Amusingly I was overtaken by the fastest guy I know training. He's trained with the Kenyans and just about skimming 4' mile pace.
So anyway, I'm pushing myself on a good effort session, he floats by taking it easy... I couldn't help notice that the heels of his fairly well-built trainers never went near the ground. I've never asked him, but I suspect he's doesn't spend a lot of time worrying about form. He just is.
TO those that think only the fast guys forefoot strike- Try running on the spot as slowly as you can, heel strike only. Now forefoot strike only. Which feels best? Now jog very slowly forwards so your just moving. Which feels best now?
I wear racing flats for everything i do now after changing from heel to forefoot striker around 5 years ago. I dont use barefoot shoes although the nearest fad shoe i bought was the newtons which helped the transition to forefoot running.
FFS look it up. What did you used to call free running BTW?
Tell me what mag you bought and I will. "running" BTW
Why have you changes your tune?
Where was that then?
It's a racing flat aimed at someone who isn't quick
You really think that's going to get someone to bite? I run to keep the fat off, I'm not quick, don't race and don't particularly enjoy it. I do enjoy boxing (std and thai), circuits, and MTBing.
You accusing me of not being quick is like me saying you've got a crap teep!
Tell me what mag you bought and I will. "running" BTW
Never bought a running mag in my life.
You did this and called it "running"? Talk about understatement
Why have you changes your tune?Where was that then?
????
Never bought a running mag in my life.
Didnt say you did. These fads are ususally in "life style" mags or "supplements"
I tend not to run slower than 7:15 pace all of the time
That's a 3.10 marathon pace at a cruise. What's your PB HM, FM? Must be way below 3 hours!
Changes in style happen naturally for the most part.
its not natural to heel strike at reduced speeds then forefoor strike as you go quicker.
Which is it?
Didnt say you did. These fads are ususally in "life style" mags or "supplements"
No and no. I have subs for Dirt and ST. I've "bought into" MTB far more than I have anything else.
72 HM and well below 3 for a FM but not worth quoting 😳
It probably is; if only to qualify your comments. It's hard enough as it is to trawl through the sh@ without someone who actually knows what their talking about withholding their credentials.
Changes in style happen naturally for the most part.its not natural to heel strike at reduced speeds then forefoor strike as you go quicker.
Which is it?
They are not mutually exclusive although in my haste I may not have explained it well.
Point 1 is true IMO in point 2 I was trying to say that if you forefoot strike when you are running fast then you will tend towards forefoot striking when you run slower.
You really think that's going to get someone to bite?... You accusing me of not being quick
It wasn't aimed at you, or accusing you of anything. Merely stating it how it is - a 'minimalist shoe' is essentially a racing flat re-branded, it's re-branded as calling a shoe 'racing' puts a lot of people* off.
*these are the people who I was referring to by don't race / don't run quick enough. The speed has nothing to do with the suitability of the shoe, more so their perception of a [i]racing[/i] flat.
withholding their credentials
Its not important I was a mediocre club runner and just an interested party. I have no qualifications (in running, I do have a CSE in needlework however!)
For you. Nothing wrong with it as long as your not injuring yourself
Not convinced there. I can't figure out from a physics point of view how sticking your leg out in front and slamming your heel into the ground isn't going to slow you down.
Decent runners don't worry about all this shite... they just go out and run
I suspect that the reason they are decent is that they don't have to worry about it - they just have it sorted instinctively. What should we do if we're not decent?
If your slow and fat... run... and run some more... one day you'll probably stop heel striking.
Disagree - if you're fat and slow you'll probably stay fat and slow unless you work out how to run properly. It DOES NOT come naturally to everyone, especially if you are relying on shoe technology to try and overcome poor gait.
You'll be forced to learn efficiency.
It won't just happen magically overnight. You may have to think about what you are doing (although that seems terribly unfashionable on here sometimes).
Changes in style happen naturally for the most part.
It didn't for me. Running was sheer torture until I thought about it, now I like it much more. I could've wasted years getting frustrated and disillusioned waiting for something to happen on its own, or I could've put in some thought and sorted it straight away.
Whats a "minimalist" shoe?
One with not much heel or padding. I had no idea what they were called or if they existed before I went looking, before you start insinuating I'm a marketing led fool....
Mol - you quoted me well enough already to answer what you should do if you're not decent....
If your slow and fat... run... and run some more
Less worrying, less fretting, more running.
I really beleive it's this simple. Don't be a running geek... be a runner.
in point 2 I was trying to say that if you forefoot strike when you are running fast then you will tend towards forefoot striking when you run slower.
Which I wholly agree with.
if you heel strike when you are running slow then you will tend towards heel striking when you run fast.
Same thing, see? See cp's post near the top^
This has descended a bit now, apologies. Try it, dont try it. Its a fad, its not a fad. You might be faster or slower. At worst, you'll end up with some very comfy shoes.
I suspect that the reason they are decent is that they don't have to worry about it - they just have it sorted instinctively. What should we do if we're not decent?
I know a lot of runners of all "abilities" and the one factor that strikes me almost without fail is that you "get out what you put in" there are exceptions but for the most part if you train sensibly but hard there is an overwhelming relationship between performance and training.
I think we may have disagreed in the past on this subject "learning to run" (paraphrasing a bit)
I dont agree I think "style" comes though specific training and in your endavour to get faster you will naturally become more stylish.
Coe/Ovett didnt become fast runners because they were "stylish" but became sytlish because over years they trained over long distances incredibly quickly. Repeat over and over again twice daily for 15 yrs!
Less worrying, less fretting, more running.
I can't see why you equate 'worrying and fretting' which are negative things with 'working out how to do it properly' which is a positive thing.
I've told you this many times before: I used to hate it and be really bad, then I thought about it, now I am much better and enjoy it a lot more.
I can't see where I went wrong, or how I would have benefited from not having thought about it. Can you please help me see why I should stop thinking?
if you train sensibly but hard there is an overwhelming relationship between performance and training.
So how did I gain a minute per mile between one run and the next, then?
TSY - have you applied the same logic to swimming? 😉
So how did I gain a minute per mile between one run and the next, then?
Is that a serious question?
I'm applying it to everything from now on.
Technique probably has a bigger part to play in swimming though IMO. Having said that my swimming has improved dramatically the last month by going to the lake as often as possible. More than it did doing drills in the pool.
Molly - I'm in danger of being offensive if I discuss things further. So I'll bow out now. As long as you're having fun, that's all that matters.
Can you please help me see why I should stop thinking?
This is a serious question. Do you think about your style when you are running? Do you literally think about your foot strike etc mid stride?
For me i never give it a second thought even over very difficult terrain.
As almost an inverse of Yeti's idea that you naturally move to mid/fore foot strike above a certain speed, I would say that below a certain speed it's more natural to heel strike.So how did I gain a minute per mile between one run and the next, then?
From my own experiences, even as a natural mid foot striker, if I drop below a certain speed (particularly when tired) I will have some heel strike.
Based on this, but without knowing what speeds you are running, I would guess that you [i]had[/i] to run faster in order to forefoot strike successfully. As opposed to being able to run faster because you were forefoot striking. (I appreciate this is a bit chicken and egg)
Is that a serious question?
It's a rhetorical one. I got much faster by thinking. Of course I have continued to improve via training, but thinking still worked very well. Still not seeing why it's such a bad thing.
Do you think about your style when you are running? Do you literally think about your foot strike etc mid stride?
Yes. I try to get used to doing it right, and I experiment with a few different ideas during a run. Training isn't all about legs and lungs, is it?
You may have naturally done it right from the start, I was naturally doing it wrong. So it seems appropriate to try and do it right, doesn't it?
Or are you saying that technique is not important in running?
Based on this, but without knowing what speeds you are running, I would guess that you had to run faster in order to forefoot strike successfully.
Well no, the time I did it was on a treadmill, so the speed was the same. I just found it dramatically easier.
Are you suggesting that I suddenly gained a minute over the course of a few days and then ended up forefoot striking as a consequence?
Well no, the time I did it was on a treadmill, so the speed was the same. I just found it dramatically easier.Are you suggesting that I suddenly gained a minute over the course of a few days and then ended up forefoot striking as a consequence?
Eh? So you did or didn't lose a minute over night?
I think that if you'd gone out and done some sprint intervals your legs would've worked it out.
Or are you saying that technique is not important in running?
Bit mischevious of you, you rascal. 🙂
No technique is hugely important but in my opinion is a "by product" of striving for speed. Having said that since I (and many faster runners)were trounced many years ago by a scruffy looking runner who looked awful warming up (Hugh Jones) "style" "form" "technique" is not everything!
I do think there is a "rough" correlation between those things and the surface and distance involved.
Very generally track runners tend to be more stylish and the longer the distance gets the less important (although still very much so) style becomes.
If you watch a long distance race there are occasopnally less stylish runners who are very effective. Having said that even marathon runners have track background now unlike 20 years ago.
I'm confused now, how does the treadmill figure into this? the speed was the same so it wasn't quicker, you just found it easier?
I think that's an interesting question. It's one way to classify runners, those that think about things, those that don't. Same as those that think about the discomfort of working hard, and those that tend to zone out.
One guy I know spent so long working on form, he almost never just 'went out for a run' for around 12 months. Drills, intervals, stances, etc. That would kill me. Mind you, he now earns a nice little second income Pose coaching.
Another really handy fell runner (England vet) often goes on about 'getting his breathing right'. I have no idea what he's talking about 🙂
No technique is hugely important but in my opinion is a "by product" of striving for speed.
Well, not for me, I can testify. A more efficient gait means more speed for the same effort. Much like swimming.
Actually, I should clarify there. I have always done forefoot striking when running sufficiently fast, but only at the kind of pace I could keep up for 200m. On the treadmill what I actually did was run as if I were sprinting, and that's what made it lots easier.
those that think about things, those that don't.
Those that don't think about it and don't have naturally good technique are those that hate running and don't do it.
I managed to go from a hater to an enjoyer by sorting my technique out. I didn't just give up because I hated being crap.
Well, not for me, I can testify. A more efficient gait means more speed for the same effort. Much like swimming.
What training distances/frequency are we talking about?
I'm talking about ANY running that isn't sprinting.
I'm confused now, how does the treadmill figure into this? the speed was the same so it wasn't quicker, you just found it easier?
Phil - yes. I was on the treadmill, and thought I'd try running on my toes - result, much easier. Then next time I went outside to try the same technique and found myself to be a minute faster (or some large figure, I forget).
I posted about it on here in fact.
What training distances/frequency are we talking about?
+1
I read something by Stephen McGregor who's done a lot of studying into running for you running geeks...
McGregor’s studies indicate that there is no such thing as good running form. Rather, skillful running is the result of an unconscious, evolutionary process wherein each runner’s unique body finds its own best way to run economically, resulting in a form that is slightly different from that of any other runner.
Now go out there and run.