So the jumped up little t wat nimby who owns a bit of field where we do a regular loop has decided to put three rows of barb wire between the gate posts of a certain gate, actually above the gate though.
One of "the lads" who rides with us sometimes claims this is illegal. Can't see it myself. Any thoughts?
Is it blocking a right of way?
Could be if it's dangerous or blocks horses and riders from getting through? I was under the impression farmers were meant to avoid using barbed wire on public ROW but didn't think it was illegal.
If it's a right of way (footpath or bridleway) I believe it's illegal. But if not, it sounds like normal practice.
Barbed wire can be a particular hazard to PROW users and is not acceptable on or near a public right of way if it is likely to be injurious to persons or animals using the highway. This is especially important on bridleways where horses need space to safely pass each other and to turn when going through gates.
plenty of barbwire fences running alongside bridleways, admitedley not seen it on gates though.
in anycase if its his field and gate i suspect can do that.
No idea - is carrying a pair of suitable of snips illegal.
Two normal gates side by side. One using the post as a hinge and the other as the lock side. Left hand one true row with a stile over. We no longer come up the footpath anymore due to him filming us etc and generally being a one way ticket to a police visit. So we cut up through a field off the road just before the footpath entrance. He's even gone to the trouble of putting up an electric fence which is wired to the offending gate.
so you're riding on private land without permission and you're upset about the landowner taking action to make this difficult for you?
If using barbed wire was illegal I don't think they would be selling it in Screwfix.
Screwfix sell nail guns, doesn't make it legal to shoot people in the face with one.
they sell hammers so I must not be able to commit a crime with one of those either.
We no longer come up the footpath anymore due to him filming us etc and generally being a one way ticket to a police visit.
Why would that warrant a police visit? It's none of their business.
I don't think you are meant to have barbed wire on the top edge of the fence along a bridleway, I.e it's OK for the bottom/middle wires but not the top.
But footpath riding is meant to be stealthy/harmless so if you are upsetting someone, however arrogant they are you should just accept its not meant to be in my opinion!
Screwfix sell nail guns, doesn't make it legal to shoot people in the face with one.
they sell hammers so I must not be able to commit a crime with one of those either.
I'm sorry I can't see the bit where the OP claims to have been attacked with some barbed wire.
I understood that question being asked was whether the use of barbed wire on private land was legal.
No, the bit he's protecting is the bit with footpath on, he doesn't own the field we ride across. He's making it difficult to access his bit of land via the non footpath way. The footpath bit we used to use is un rideable unless going down it (no point really) and even then you'd need to be peaty on a very good day. He would come flying out if he caught you on the footpath but as you can't actually ride you are breaking no law by carrying or pushing your bike.
We started using the field access to avoid him. I don't like people like him and I find it much better for my own freedom to avoid at all costs.
As I said op wise, just wondered on the legalities of barbwire as personally I thought you could use it if you wanted.
FFS! Next time could you just take a picture of it as I am trying very hard to image what it looks like. Surely you have a smart phone with you etc ... yes? 😯
the bit he's protecting is the bit with footpath on
In think the rule is that if it's a public footpath you generally not allowed to "protect it" with anything, not just barbed wire.
He's making it difficult to access his bit of land via the non footpath way.
So he's stopping you accessing his land from a place that's not a public right of way then ?
Seems fair enough doesn't it ?
This is confusing. Is he fencing you out of a legal RoW? Sounds as if its you in the wrong to be honest but maybe its a poor description.
Personal views aside you shouldn't be there as there is not reference to Bridleways. Walking is legitimate of course. Using private land ie the field is where you are going wrong.
Strikes me that you would be best avoiding the area if you are scared of the bloke and most definitely not be advertising the naughty use of private land.
Yeah but I still don't know how to post pictures!
Two fields running side by side, wall inbetween. Top of fields, gates side by side, one on right of field (his) other on left of field (nice farmer man). He then owns the small field beyond the two gates. We need to get 20 metres across field back in to woody adventure land.
Get me?
Doorstep, dog sh1t, paper bag, matches, find somewhere else to ride.
Get me?
Yes but I have no idea whether its illegal or not. Sounds like it would be easiest if you just used the footpath and ignored the angry man though.
Yeah but I still don't know how to post pictures!
Two fields running side by side, wall inbetween. Top of fields, gates side by side, one on right of field (his) other on left of field (nice farmer man). He then owns the small field beyond the two gates. We need to get 20 metres across field back in to woody adventure land.
Get me?
Not really.
Is he blocking a right of way ?
If he's not, then he's probably ok and you are in the wrong.
Find another way in? Whats the legal status of the trails in the woods? But your repeated use of footpath and bikes make me sound like your are just shoving 2 fingers up to him repeatidly when you have been asked to stop.
As (amongst most of the stuff on this thread) you haven't clarified, did you really get a visit from the police for being on a FP with a bike? What did they say to you?
We need to get 20 metres across field back in to woody adventure land.
Get me?
can you go thru that 20 metres of field using a right of way or only be trespassing?
I'm still not sure if the barbed wire is on a gate across a RoW. Is it a Bridleway? If so the gate should be easy to use, or a bridle gate to the side / etc. If it's a FP then you probably know you shouldn't be using it.
If it's not a RoW then he put it specifically to stop people trespassing.
Most local council websites have links or maps of Rights of Way or CRoW land, if he is obstructing one then you can usually report it to a RoW officer at the council.
If however this is not a RoW then the farmer can do what he likes to stop people trespassing on his land, the same as you can stop people wandering through your back garden. If he has asked you to leave and you continue, you could be done with aggravated trespass.
If it is a RoW but only a footpath, you could walk the bikes along it, then the farmer has no grounds for complaint.
If it is not a RoW you could try dialogue with said farmer and come to a mutual agreement, you never know it might just work. 😉
PS - I also believe that if a RoW is obstructed, you are legally allowed to remove the obstruction. I think I read that on the CTC website, may be an idea to have a look.
does he own the land the FP is on? if not, just use it and tell him to F O.
if he's not the land owner or their representative then it is no business of his what you do. you will not get a visit from the police, it is a civil matter, and they won't be interested.
a footpath designation does not mean you're not allowed to ride there, it means that your right to ride there is not enshrined in law, so unless 'no cycling' signs are posted by the landowners, or you are told otherwise by the landowner or their representative, you can do WTF you want.
Bolehill near Wirksworth any chance? The owner has a hissyfit every time you go near it. Solution - I stopped using it
I'm sorry I can't see the bit where the OP claims to have been attacked with some barbed wire.
Obtuse as ever ernie.
I understood that question being asked was whether the use of barbed wire on private land was legal.
I think it was more can you put it somewhere where it is likely to injure people but you know that
Agree the OP is being so vague no one can answer
It doesn't take much for us to be confused.. But then the OP ignoring certain questions doesn't help either..
No RoW, no access.
Google Maps of the area in question?
Google Maps of the area in question?
Bing maps in OS map mode might be more useful 🙂
Sounds to me like he's protecting his land from trespassers.
It's clear he's not being very sociable and I can't see what harm a few MTB-ers would cause but if it's his land and there is no public ROW he's entitled to secure his property.
Why don't you follow the original route and just push you bike up the footpath.
wilsonthecat - Member
Bolehill near Wirksworth any chance? The owner has a hissyfit every time you go near it. Solution - I stopped using it
POSTED 26 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST
Yep that's the one.
The misery owns the two fields the footpath runs on. We no longer use this route. We try to access the last 20 m of said footpath via another gate which he also owns and has now "Steve mcqueened" with barbwire.
With reference to the police said man accused me of being threatening during one altercation. Hence avoiding him since.
Just to avoid confusion,
This is barbed wire:
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And this is barb wire:
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HTH.
I guess the barbwire is to discourage/stop you lifting a bike over? Nice.
Would love to speak to the Landowner but it looks miles out from where I normally ride.
perfectly within his rights then.
Yep that's the one.The misery owns the two fields the footpath runs on. We no longer use this route. We try to access the last 20 m of said footpath via another gate which he also owns and has now "Steve mcqueened" with barbwire.
With reference to the police said man accused me of being threatening during one altercation. Hence avoiding him since.
His is indeed a cantankerous old git! I gave up on that part and now just loop round to Blackrock via the car park and climb up. Alternatively before you drop down the hill to the gate in question there is a farm track which takes you to the bottom of the Bull descent on Blackrock itself.
hora - Member
I guess the barbwire is to discourage/stop you lifting a bike over? Nice.Would love to speak to the Landowner but it looks miles out from where I normally ride.
POSTED 4 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST
Calm down Rambo
@wrighty - why not push your bike up the footpath ? You are perfectly entitled to do that.
As an occupier of land, you owe a duty of care to folks, which extends to trespassers.
It generally swings on whether the harm was foreseeable (from your description of its location, it sounds like it might be)...however most people/businesses get round the DOC by sticking signs up everywhere warning of the danger.
In the absence of signs and from your description of the location, you'd have at least the foundations for a tort claim if you were to suffer harm as a result.
So it's a footpath that you try and ride in bikes, the landowner objects and you carry on doing it. In fact you trespass to carry on doing it. Well done there another big plus for access. Carry on being a knob and the landowner will do the same.
In the absence of signs and from your description of the location, you'd have at least the foundations for a tort claim if you were to suffer harm as a result.
Duty of care does not mean you have to put warning signs around every bit of boundary fencing you put up in case someone pricks their finger on it. Climbing over barbed wire is a perceivable risk.
Also as a land owner you cannot get around duty of care.
[url= http://streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=429412&Y=355070&A=Y&Z=120 ]streetmap is better than bing[/url]
Certainly doesn't seem to keen on bikes.
However rules of trespass: Civil offence, can sue for damages. So if you snip his barbed wire, he could get you. If not, police won't be bothered.
Damages can be more than physical though. Round our way I avoid cheeky trails on grouse moors as (with a good expensive lawyer) it could be implied that riding scared the helpless birds, so they couldn't be shot out of sky, therefore loss a season's income. Which is a lot.
ir_bandito - Member
here?streetmap is better than bing
You mean the public footpath where it says "No Bicycles"? I wonder who put that up by the way.
Duty of care does not mean you have to put warning signs around every bit of boundary fencing you put up in case someone pricks their finger on it. Climbing over barbed wire is a perceivable risk.Also as a land owner you cannot get around duty of care.
No.
DOC owed by occupiers is specifically dealt with by the 57 act, including the nature and extent of warnings provided to visitors by occupiers. If the warning is sufficient to keep the visitor reasonably safe, the DOC is discharged.
It's a bit more complicated than than in practice though.
Looking at the OS map there is a perfectly good Bridleway (Pennine Bridleway) that runs into the woods, which you would legally be entitled to ride along.
Right next to a Car Park.
That seems like a no brainer to me 🙄
[url= http://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/01/73/55/1735598_cbf7bcfa.jp g" target="_blank">
No.DOC owed by occupiers is specifically dealt with by the 57 act, including the nature and extent of warnings provided to visitors by occupiers. If the warning is sufficient to keep the visitor reasonably safe, the DOC is discharged.
Are you saying that you do need signs about barbed wire boundary? This isn't my experience. Electric fence which is difficult to identify certainly.
Are you saying that you do need signs about barbed wire boundary? This isn't my experience. Electric fence which is difficult to identify certainly.
Not necessarily. that's what I meant by it being a bit more complicated in practice. I'm not very familiar with the caselaw, but from memory the usual test is whether the danger was blatantly obvious that no sign/warning should be needed. So as you've pointed out, staring at a bit of barbed wire is very different from an electric fence.
I'd imagine there's a difference too between barbed wire above head height v waist height from a warning perspective. Or barbed wire where you wouldn't expect it (similar to the OP scenario - ie a gate being an otherwise normally usable entrance, but for the fact it has barbed wire at head height!)
The countryside is full of barbed wire. IMO there is no need for landowner to put up a sign by every gate. I would be most surprised if the landowner has put up barbed wire at head height over a gate on a footpath. I have seen nothing (worlds or images) in this thread to suggest that is actually what has happened. I understand the wire has been put up on his private property and above a gate to his private property and not on a public footpath
Bored reading so sorry if this has been posted but
We no longer come up the footpath anymore due to him filming us
Does he have your permission to film you? I believe you can ask to see the images he has taken and demand that he delete them, could be wrong though. Do you have access to any small children? If so, borrow one and if he films you call the cops and tell them there's some dirty old man filming little kiddies.
I believe you can ask to see the images he has taken and demand that he delete them, could be wrong though.
Nope, not in a public place, not unless you own the photons that bounced off you and found their way to the camera. In your own house you can set your own rules of course.
He really doesn't like bikes, and takes every opportunity he can to complain to the council, neighbours and anyone who will listen.
We stopped using that bit years ago - why cause grief? It's his land, and there are plenty of other ways in.
As I said several times we don't use the path anymore. The field we cross reaches the path eventually where it isn't even worth getting back on the bike. He is a tool who I've tried to avoid since he made me angry as I could easily see him reporting some bollox to the old bill. He has now gone to the legnths of putting up CCTV signage in the woods. Must be camo'd cameras as I couldn't see any 😆
Yeah, I've encountered him before and he's belligerent and aggressive, won't listen to reason and really doesn't like bikes.
Plenty of people (non riders) have mentioned him as well, he's well known to the rangers and a lot of the locals and generally he's ignored.
Thing is.. He only needs to moan in the right ear once, and it could cause a lot of access related grief. I've seen similar things happen in other local spots, and some of the rangers aren't particularly happy about the number of riders up there anyway.
Junkyard - lazarusObtuse as ever ernie.
Oh look, a personal attack from Junkyard, how unusual.
And on a thread about barbed wire ffs ! 😀
Does he own or rent the land?
I had a ding dong here in the Peaks. Woman ranted and raved that it was her fathers land AND access road. I pointed out they rented. Soon shut the idiot up.
I had a ding dong here in the Peaks. Woman ranted and raved that it was her fathers land AND access road. I pointed out they rented. Soon shut the idiot up.
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I don't think your helping matters OP the guy sound a numbskull but you then trespass across some land. I know it's hard to tell but looking at the links above their seems to be legal routes into those woods that you could use.
Oh look, a personal attack from Junkyard, how unusual.
You were deliberately misinterpreting the thread just as you are deliberately misinterpreting that as a personal attack.
You were deliberately misinterpreting the thread
"deliberately misinterpreting the thread" ! ffs have a day off 😆
so you wish to insist that they were asking if it was legal to use barbire in general - looks at thread titles and strokes chin.
Whatever ernie 🙄
As for playing the man clearly you are not having a rest day
I can give you both a rest week if you don't stop.
If I don't stop what .... posting smilies ? assuming that's aimed at me.
so you wish to insist that they were asking if it was legal to use barbire in general
I'm not "insisting" anything. This is a thread about barbed wire JY, get a grip. You can think whatever you want to think.
For the record I assumed wrightyson was asking if the use of barbed wire had become illegal, in the same way that other things which were once legal are no longer so, for example broken glass bedded in mortar on a brick wall was once legal but no longer is. Health and safety and all that. Similarly I have no idea concerning the legality of razor wire, I do know that there is a duty of care towards trespassers, specially when it comes to children and building sites.
If however you think that I was "deliberately misinterpreting the thread" then that's up to you.
And I have to say, even if I was, I find it quite astonishing that you even want to make a issue out of it.
Anyway, think whatever you want to think 🙂
Anyway back in the rest of the world where there are 2 sides to every story there is a landowner who has done nothing wrong, who has told people repeatedly that bikes and footpaths don't mix but the same people keep trying their luck. THen they try and sneak round through gates that are not part of any right of way so he puts up something to make it harder to trespass. Add in there is appears to be a perfectly good BW access to where the bikers are trying to get to.
Remind me again who is being unreasonable?
Does he own or rent the land?
What difference would that make?
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[quote=mikewsmith ]Anyway back in the rest of the world where there are 2 sides to every story there is a landowner who has done nothing wrong
Well apart from lying to the police that is.
you mean this bit?
With reference to the police said man accused me of being threatening during one altercation. Hence avoiding him since.
It's quite possible that he felt threatened and that he felt the behavior of wrightyson was threatening. Perhaps the persistent trespassing is in itself threatening.
Just trying to take a common sense approach, all of the angst seems to come from people trying to ride on footpaths which (not opening a land access debate)is currently not on.
It's quite possible that he felt threatened and that he felt the behavior of wrightyson was threatening. Perhaps the persistent trespassing is in itself threatening.
How many times do I have to state that the footpath is hardly rideable and on each occasion with the idiot I was pushing up. You in particular mike see me as the big offender here.
On the occasion where he said I was being threatening, I had warned him that if he attempted to touch me or my bike there would be consequences. He prior to this point had tried to block my way physically rushing across the path whilst I was pushing up and stood there filming me.
If you go back to the op all I asked was whether (because someone else said it was not) it was illegal to put barb(ed)wire above a gate.
In context is the gate part of the footpath? Is it a gate you go through while on the footpath. Also pushing bikes on footpaths is a grey area.
No this gate is from a private field adj to the footpath. It then accesses the field the footpath is in. As in two metres away. Its a deliberate attempt to stop us or anyone else for that matter as loads of dog walkers used that field as an easier access to the woods above.
You must be able to see the idiot we're dealing with here from the other comments. And who ffs puts up CCTV signs in the woods 😀
As far as I know he can do what he likes with the gate.
this gate is from a private field adj to the footpath.
The clue would be in the words you used, it's private property, he could put a barbed wire and electric fence across it if he wanted to. You have no right of access through the gate.
On the occasion where he said I was being threatening, I had warned him that if he attempted to touch me or my bike there would be consequences. He prior to this point had tried to block my way physically rushing across the path whilst I was pushing up and stood there filming me.
So you threatened him, glad that is cleared up.
You must be able to see the idiot we're dealing with
It's becoming clear
And who ffs puts up CCTV signs in the woods
Probably someone who is sick of people trespassing.
Sorry at what point are we trespassing? Pushing a bike up a path is not trespassing nor is it a grey area. He told me he would stop me moving any further by pushing me back down the path, at this point he's filming and about a metre from my face. Now that's a challenge if I ever heard one. This was the second and last time I came across him because I no longer use the path I'm entitled to push my bike along.
Keep blaming me mikey boy if it makes you feel better, but all I asked initially was about the barb(ered)wire above the gate.
And on the barbed wire it's private land he can do what he wants
Sorry at what point are we trespassing?
No this gate is from a private field adj to the footpath. It then accesses the field the footpath is in.
Do you have permission to be in the "private field"? If not you've answered your own question.
[quote=mikewsmith ]Also pushing bikes on footpaths is a grey area.
Not all that grey - see page 7 of
wrightyson - Member
Sorry at what point are we trespassing? Pushing a bike up a path is not trespassing nor is it a grey area. He told me he would stop me moving any further by pushing me back down the path, at this point he's filming and about a metre from my face. Now that's a challenge if I ever heard one. This was the second and last time I came across him because I no longer use the path I'm entitled to push my bike along.
Keep blaming me mikey boy if it makes you feel better, but all I asked initially was about the barb(ered)wire above the gate.
Why not just take the "peaty" way down and push your bike if not ridable?
If I was the farmer, and you were using my private land as a cheeky shortcut becuase you didn't want to ride down or push down a Steve Pete Footpath © i'd be putting barb wire and bear traps on my land, perhaps even a shotgun trap. Now GTFO off my private land 😀
Not all that grey - see page 7
I read that and I'd say a statement that Pushing bikes on a footpath is legal would be black and white, this I call gray.
There is good evidence, although no direct case law, to support the view that
pushing a cycle on a footpath is not illegal
Still pushing a bike across a field that has no ROW on it is definitely not allowed without permission from the land owner.