[Closed] Ban The Burka?

I too know muslims of varying devoutness, including those that will eat bacon (when no-one is looking).
One of the most devout muslims I know is Scots/Welsh and most definitely white.
Don't think he is a mountain biker but he did used to own a Raleigh Apex.

Just in case it crops up in the future, I did used to date a bisexual half black Jew, not disabled though.
😆

What about fat women who wear tshirts in the swimming pool? I hope they will continue to be able to cover up.

bisexual half black Jew

Which half?

Personally I am in favour of people wearing what they want to wear - however, I have lived in countries with different clothing norms to ours and adapted to them. Not that difficult a choice.

km79 - Member

Which half?

Her paternal half. 😛

Isn't equality about treating everyone the same?

No, it's about treating people as equals while recognising that they are not the same.

But I take your point, someone call the Gendarmerie. Nunkinis at twelve o'clock!

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But it is ok for a religion to tell women what to wear?
And do. ( driving, travelling) .

You're assuming they are being forced.

Careful with that premise.

I am against banning Burka , have posted before. Covering the face is pretty offensive IMO but to ban it in general is highly questionable.

As for freedom to wear whatever we want as above its not total freedom, eg no crash helmets in a bank and we can't go around naked can we (Stephen Cough has spent years in jail for hiking naked). So nakedness affronts people = jail.

I can appreciate in the wake of 3 major terrorist attacks in 18 months that France is much more sensitive to displays of what people see as extreme religious behaviour from the specific religion that is threatening them.

I can also appreciate that more "orthodox" Islam operates a far more restrictive dress code for women than it does for men and in that regard there isn't a freedom of choice. I find it quite bizarre that women's rights groups have taken this cause up when Islam must be one of the most restrictive religions with respect to women.

OP pretty much all policeman in France are armed so there is nothing special about the woman in Nice being confronted by armed local "bobbies" which is what they where, not nationale or CRS.

No problem with woman wearing the Hijab and until more recent years that was all you'd see them wearing. Now I see more women wearing the Niqab and Burqa.
The Niqab wearing seems to have increased with the funding of mosques from the gulf states especially Saudi where they are popular. You could argue that more migrants from those countries but but here around Dewsbury they're are usually of ****stani origin now with strong Yorkshire accents. I assume it comes down if you accept money from these states then it comes with conditions.
The Burqa I do not agree with and find it a form oppression that was used by the Taliban to control and blame women as the instigators of temptation. Other countries were the Burqa is popular tend to treat women as second class citizens denying them the basis such as an education. Regardless of religion I don't agree with that treatment of anyone.
As for the Burkini it's a great way of enjoying the beaches whilst protecting their modesty. I can see it being popular outside of the Muslim community too with those who are body conscious

You're assuming they are being forced.

Careful with that premise.

Driving (not) in Saudi they are definitely forced. As for clothes its a social pressure which builds in intensity and to go against it can dangerous and frightening. Look at the number of honour killings. Do you really believe a young teenage girl in a very traditional family has a choice ? This is something Sarkozy raised, its about social coercion to follow a path with is contradictory to fundamental Western freedoms and liberties.

I personally don't feel comfortable with people walking around in public with their faces covered up .

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@carig - the French are looking to ban foreign funding of Mosques for that reason, ie it coming with strings including having more "traditional" imams whuch they also pay for.

BTW the Germans are also considering a Burka ban.

@kcr, you couldn't go into a bank like that and if you walked down the high st there is a good chance of being stopped by the Police for a chat

Here's the thing, I'm not comfortable when around people who's face is covered. I do find it, odd, strange, and even unsettling.

But that's me, my reaction, and probably mostly down to the fact it only happens rarely. I would never endorse banning it, I do my best not to let my awkwardness show as I consider it my problem.

I have lived in countries with different clothing norms to ours and adapted to them

Not that difficult a choice.

I have lived in the middle east and dressed conservatively/with respect to theor traditions. I did not dress like a local and still "stood out"

Does Jamby have an issue with orthodox jews and their dress code and treatment of women or just Islams?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/01/renee-rabinowitz-sue-israeli-airline-el-al-orthodox-gender-discrimination?INTCMP=sfl

A retired lawyer who fled the Nazis as a child is suing the Israeli national airline El Al for alleged discrimination after being asked to move on a plane when an ultra-Orthodox Jew objected to sitting next to a woman.

Orthodox Jewish women have a unique dress code. If you enter any area of Orthodox Jews, the appearance and dress code of the women might strike you. You might wonder why do Jewish women wear skirts and no pants? Why do orthodox Jewish women cover their hair with a wig, hat or kerchief (called a "tichel" by orthodox Jews).

By orthodox Jews, women dress modest as required by Jewish law.

All Orthodox Jewish women clothing will be in common with the fact that it covers the body from the neckline till the knee. While there are huge differences in dress code from modern-orthodox Jewish women to ultra-orthodox Jewish women, they both won't expose their body parts besides their face and hands.

GO on fella give them orthodox Jews both barrels- go on please show you are not a hypocrite motivated by your personal antipathy towards islam.

Its not about what I think it about allowing them the freedom to do as they think

Of course i think its backwards and stupid. they probably think riding a MTB in the dark and the rain is backwards and stupid.

you couldn't go into a bank like that

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=burka+robbers&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari

Quite a few but no camel getaway

Nunkinis at twelve o'clock!

Only 3 hours to go. Can hardly wait.

iirc there was one once as this question - as this crap point gets raised all the time as a crash helmet and a bank are the only combination of places where one is restricted generally, by dress code in the uk

Its blindingly obvious to anyone who can think that it is a security issue within banks due to robberies that have occurred rather than a "dress code policy".
I guess banks will do the same when hordes of Muslims keep robbing them

@neil the point is there are restrictions on what we wear and don't wear already. The concern in France in 2013 (?) when they banned the Burkha was that it was inconsistent with Western Liberal values and secularism in France in particular, French rukes are even tighter as you can't wear a headscarf if you are a teacher.

Mankini's are banned in many places as they are seen to be in poor taste and consistent with unacceptable behaviour

Driving (not) in Saudi they are definitely forced. As for clothes its a social pressure which builds in intensity and to go against it can dangerous and frightening. Look at the number of honour killings. Do you really believe a young teenage girl in a very traditional family has a choice ? This is something Sarkozy raised, its about social coercion to follow a path with is contradictory to fundamental Western freedoms and liberties.

Fair point.

But do not assume that everyone wearing a burka et al is being forced.

Some willingly chose to do so.

Be wary, you maybe guilty of projecting your prejudices onto others..

Do you really believe a young teenage girl in a very traditional family has a choice ?

REALLY?
In general no children do not have the same choice as adults whatever the religion of their parents

A work colleague visits her dad who works in Saudi. If she leaves the compound were he lives she has to wear a Niqab as she dark skinned and black hair she is mistaken as being Muslim ( she is atheist) and has previously been caned on the legs and arms in the street by the religious police.

How many banks have been robbed my muslim women with their faces covered? (Getaway camel outside?)

But how would you know if they had their faces covered?

BTW the reactionary, populist German politicians with an axe to gring with Merkel are also considering a Burka ban

FTFY

i think people are getrting confused with a head scarf as worn by nuns, muslim women and hipsters and a burka which covers the whole face.

interesting talk on R4 from last week about it in relation to the potential ban in Germany [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07nn8r7 ]HERE[/url]

during the summer months Munich is host to lots of arabs who come over visiting the health clinics for various operations. there are large groups of men and women walking around. the woemen are covered head to toe. many of the women have some strange copper nose covering, too.

i don't like it. the same as i don't like it when youths cover their faces in winter with ski masks.

Jambers why no bile for the orthodox Jews?

What could be the causes of this double standards between the two races/religion.

It is the obvious isnt it 😥

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Ban this.

The burqa makes me uncomfortable.

What makes me more uncomfortable, is marginalizing liberal/secular Muslims like a lovely French Algerian man I met in a bike coffee shop in London. The kinds of people that laugh at the Burqa themselves - the kinds of people that we do need on our side.

It's a fine line, I think France is heading in the wrong direction.

I don't like it either...I feel happier seeing someone's face, it's what 40 odd years of living in a western society has aclimatised me to.

BUT,

I respect the fact that there are those will be wearing the burqa et al out of choice.

On that premise, I refuse to judge anyone I see wearing the burqa or anyone in the company of someone wearing the burqa.

A POV I think more than a few on this thread would do well to adopt!

But do not assume that everyone wearing a burka et al is being forced.

MrLeb agreed and that's one reason why I am not in favoir of banning it.

Junky ultra orthodox female Jews don't cover their faces and afaik the dress codes apply to men and women which is why you see the men dressed very plainly in white shirts and black suits with black hats. I think the women have mkre flexibility in dress than the men. More religious Jewish women cover their heads (skulls) with a scarf or a hat (trilbys are popular) and often show their hair. It's really quite different I think to having women cover their faces whilst the men do pretty much as they please.

afaik the dress codes apply to men and women

Why do orthodox Jewish women cover their hair with a wig, hat or kerchief (called a "tichel" by orthodox Jews).

Well what you know and what is true are not the same thing as we have established many many times

whilst the men do pretty much as they please

There is a prescriptive dress code for males in Islam as there are for orthodox jews

Both have different strict rules for either gender- if you want to care you have to object to both as they are broadly similar

If a corbynista said this about jews- oppressed their women whilst "whilst the men do pretty much as they please" you would be howling about racism. As it is I just consider it incredibly ill informed and ignorant.

it makes me feel uncomfortable if i can not see someone's face. comparing it to a motorcyclist or DHer is daft, as once no longer imersed in that activity they are very unlikely to keep their face covered.

neither the niqab or burqa are cool, IMO, regardless of religious beliefs.

think the "burkini" is a good thing if women don't want to show too much skin and not much different to a full-body swimsuit worn by swimmers/drivers/little kids.

i think the french massively over-reacted on that one. and calling it the burkini isn't fair, either, as it does not cover the face.

it's the covering of their face that i don't like. i find it almost disrepectful towards my/our european culture. it goes too heavily against the grain.

i would be happy to vote for a ban against the burka/niqab.

i would happily vote for a ban against all public displays of religion... i'd ban it if were the Führer ...

craigxxl - Member

A work colleague visits her dad who works in Saudi. If she leaves the compound were he lives she has to wear a Niqab as she dark skinned and black hair she is mistaken as being Muslim ( she is atheist) and has previously been caned on the legs and arms in the street by the religious police.

Aye. And one thing we don't ever want to be doing, is making any sort of moral equivalence with Saudi Arabia.

It's just a piece of cloth, doesn't make me feel uncomfortable really, after all, it's just a person underneath, not some monster. But generally I think patriarchal societies and religions should probably stop trying to control what women/people wear.

[quote=Junkyard ]Its blindingly obvious to anyone who can think that it is a security issue within banks due to robberies that have occurred rather than a "dress code policy".
I guess banks will do the same when hordes of Muslims keep robbing them

Or just hordes of people wearing full body covering which looks like a burka - I wouldn't want to demonise Muslims for something anybody can do.

Or will they? It may not be hordes, but there's evidence it's happening and no suggestion the banks are about to ban it. If it did become more widespread do you think the banks really would ban it just as simply as they banned motorbike helmets?

[quote=Junkyard ]There is a prescriptive dress code for males in Islam as there are for orthodox jews

Given we're purportedly discussing the burka, is there anything similar to that in what is proscribed for Jewish women, or is there rather less effective difference in what is proscribed for men and women than in Islam?

Junky you are rambling so much I think you must be drunk - no ? Up to your trolling inventing your own pantomime villan to boo and hiss again ? No one of the Jewish or Christian faith is covering their face, man or woman whilst out and about. No matter how orthodox. No one here said Jewish women where being repressed. Remember the Jewish religion predates Islam by 3000 years and its still more enlightened with regards to women and women's rights. What we are saying is that Islam and in particular more traditional forms of it absolutely do repress women.

Well, for once I find myself agreeing with Jambalaya. I massively dislike the Burqa and suspect that there are far more women either forced or culturally encouraged to wear it than actually choose to wear it.

But the way the French are dealing with Muslim community makes Trump look enlightened.

Whilst we're not in any doubt that there are factions of Islam that repress women, it's absolute nonsense to issue a blanket statement..

All muslim families that I've met have a very matriarchal set up when at home, although on the surface the family roles appear quite different to our firmly entrenched western views

I think it's fairly disengenious to argue that Islam doesn't have a woman problem though....and in fact it does a fairly large diservice to those women trying to escape religiously inspired lunacy.

The west has it issues - spousal murder etc, but there isn't a cultural acceptance of covering your women head to toe, honour killings and polygamy.

I find the denial these are an issue, so that one can engage in virtue signalling, frankly a bit sickening.

f it did become more widespread do you think the banks really would ban it just as simply as they banned motorbike helmets?

is there rather less effective difference in what is proscribed for men and women than in Islam?

Both are restrictive , and more so to women than men
I guess we could discuss which is the most repressive if we want to do
What we cannot do is pretend only one is. well we can but only ifwe dont really care about the facts.
In general I am not sure whether being forced to wear a wig and a hat is more or less repressive than wearing a veil. - do you wish to argue eithersi good ? Either is not "repressive" to women or that either dont have different rules for men as for woemn?

can also appreciate that more "orthodox" Islam operates a far more restrictive dress code for women than it does for men and in that regard there isn't a freedom of choice

can also appreciate that more "orthodox" Judaism operates a far more restrictive dress code for women than it does for men and in that regard there isn't a freedom of choice

Bioth are true. Jamby only cares about one of them- what about you?

[quote=Junkyard ]In general I am not sure whether being forced to wear a wig and a hat is more or less repressive than wearing a veil.

I'm fairly sure how I feel about that one.

Bioth are true. Jamby only cares about one of them- what about you?

I care about both if it really is true that both are true and equivalent. But it seems that only one proscribes a face covering for women, whilst both proscribe head and body covering for women, and Orthodox Judaism also proscribes head covering and specific clothing for men (I have no idea what is proscribed for men in Orthodox Islam - genuinely interested in being enlightened). ISTM that there is rather less effective difference in the clothing proscribed for men and women in Judaism simply because of the face covering issue. It is after all mainly the face covering which makes quite normal non-bigoted people uncomfortable.

Though I note that from my (limited) understanding of dress codes in Orthodox Judaism that there isn't actually a huge difference in the level of restriction between the sexes - are you suggesting that the ubiquitous black suit and head covering for men isn't proscribed, or that what the women have to wear is in some way more restrictive than that. I'll admit my ignorance of the specifics, but nothing I've seen mentioned for women seems vastly more restrictive than that.

I'm certainly no more uncomfortable about proscribed clothing for one religion than I am for any other - simply assessing it based on the specifics. The main issue here is one of face covering, something which appears to be unique to Orhtodox Islam. If there's another religion which specifies that then I'll feel just the same about that religion. Though I note that I have no interest in banning any form of clothing (or lack of it) anybody wants to wear.

[quote=jambalaya ]Junky you are rambling so much I think you must be drunk - no ? Up to your trolling inventing your own pantomime villan to boo and hiss again ?I dont drink and clealry i cannot compete with that sort of temperate and well constructed logical and robust argument#frowns- why do you keep saying pantomime villain ? no has ever called you this - why have you developed your own meme for yourself. Most odd

No one of the Jewish or Christian faith is covering their face, man or woman whilst out and about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_burqa_sect

wrong twice, impressive

No matter how orthodox. No one here said Jewish women where being repressed.

What we are saying is that Islam and in particular more traditional forms of it absolutely do repress women.

I can also appreciate that more "orthodox" Islam operates a far more restrictive dress code for women than it does for men and in that regard there isn't a freedom of choice

I think it's fairly disengenious to argue that Islam doesn't have a woman problem though.

Off course i think the treatment of woman by the religious is poor. the only point i differ on is that I think that there is very little difference between the orthodox of judaism and Islam. However one lot we demonise and the other lot you are a racist if you criticise them.

I am enjoying some of the worst dressed men in the United Kingdom discuss the rights and wrongs of what someone who has nothing to do with them wears.

Let us not forget why the burka is worn.

Not for anything to do with you, so why care?

it seems that only one proscribes a face covering for women,

to draw their cloaks (veils) over their bodies.

whilst both proscribe head and body covering for women, and Orthodox Judaism also proscribes head covering and specific clothing for men (I have no idea what is proscribed for men in Orthodox Islam - genuinely interested in being enlightened)

ISTM that there is rather less effective difference in the clothing proscribed for men and women in Judaism simply because of the face covering issue.

It is after all mainly the face covering which makes quite normal non-bigoted people uncomfortable.