[Closed] BAD BORIS and UK Imigration

Care homes have been unsustainable for a long time. Profits are very low. The amount councils will pay does not cover the legally mandated minimum standards.

going to be even more unsustainable soon then

Following on from compulsory contraception the other day, compulsory euthanasia for anyone not able to pay for their own care.

Job jobbed.

It's going to decimate some sectors and areas as I'm pretty sure those whose jobs will be lost due to cessation of (for example) car production in the North will not be picking up vacancies in fruit picking in Sussex.

TJ is bang on the button with the care industry (at least mainstream care).

Reducing immigration will also potentially knock on to construction - demand for housing driven partly from population growth, potential for surplus stock which may drive prices down but with construction running to wafer thin margins the developer may not survive to see the work through.

Lack of competition for jobs may well drive up labour rates but it will also hit pricing - again with many sectors running very slim margins the cost rises will drive price rises that will possibly consume the headline wage growth or drive business failures due to them becoming unsustainable.

Nearly everything coming out at the minute is highly one dimensional or at least presented that way.

That's before all the fancy new UK specific standards create a wave of compliance and administrative costs.

See the Brexit thread for previous pondering

I’m pretty sure those whose jobs will be lost due to cessation of (for example) car production in the North will not be picking up vacancies in fruit picking in Sussex.

And this is the problem. University graduates, for example, are mobile, they move to get well paid jobs and can afford to set up shop in a new city, and they usually don't have dependents. Moving across the country to do a low paid job is far less feasible because you leave behind your support network which is more important when you're skint and even more so if you have dependents.

I predict an employer backlash; in fact, it's already started.
Do wetherspoons employ lots of EU nationals? When will tim martin have something to say about this?
So johnson wants an infrastructure boom; that will require lots of labour - some highly skilled, some not. Where will the construction companies find the lower skilled/unskilled required for the grunt work on these schemes?
I safely predict that EU nationals will continue to leave the UK as we approach 31/12; does johnson have any suggestions on how to fill the employment gaps this will cause?
What proportion of the 'economically inactive' are actively seeking work and would they have any interest in replacing EU nationals in health care, service industries, hospitality, agriculture, food processing, construction labouring?
A charitable interpretation of this policy is that it's poorly thought through; more realistically, it's deliberately malign.
How long before brexiters start complaining when the service(s) they've become used to are affected and prices in various sectors begin to rise?
'Gentleman' farmers and landowners are, stereotypically, tory but they will be some of the first to feel the affects of this; how will they react?

Just another load of incoherent, ideologically-driven, right-wing cobblers, formulated by a bunch of the staggeringly dim who clearly haven’t got the first clue how the world actually functions.

This won’t survive first contact with the real world

After watching the BBC documentary on Universal Credit, I'm thinking a fair proportion of the "economically inactive" may not be for much longer. Unless they are happy to starve.

It's OK, there's 8 million economically inactive folk aged from 18-64 just gagging to take on fruit picking and care home jobs.

(OK, maybe not exactly 8 million, once you discount those in education, retirement, or disability..... ****ing barefaced lying is back in vogue)

Indeed. Presently being a full time carer for your sick parents in Merseyside?

Not any more. Not while there’s cabbages need picking in Norfolk. Your tent in the adjoining field awaits. If you set off walking now, you’ll be there by next weekend

So we're reducing the influx of cheap EU labour and asking UK citizens to work for a living instead of claiming benefits?

Is this a good or bad idea?

It’s more jobs for brits innit, didn’t you know we have loads of doctors/care workers/cabbage pickers on the dole queuing up for maximum wage jobs once the brown people fekoffbackhome.

Depends. The vast majority of the ‘economically inactive’ mentioned are either students, long term sick, disabled, full time carers or retired

I’m not sure how effective they will be filing all those jobs in the care homes and fruit orchards of the nation

It’s okay the full time carers cab simply move their relatives in to a group home and get paid for looking after their own relatives and other peoples.

Disabled folks can use the baskets on their mobility scooters to pick fruit in to. Students can stop smoking weed and watching daytime TV and help blind people with cabbage packing.

What an absolute set of bollocks

To be fair that is what they voted for...... They can have it.

Maybe it doesn’t matter, if brexit results in employment being at an all time high then that’s a bonus for the tory.

Let’s not mention the possible reduction in wages, pensions and workers rights.

I pray this will see a rise in union membership, but I suspect that unions will be next on the list for the Murdoch propaganda leaflets

IS it just EU labour , or just cheap labour?
Like the Phillipino cleaners at the hospitals, the Sri Lankans in the Indian Takeaway , the Nigerian porters in larger hotels, The Romanian Cauliflower pickers etc etc
Basically all jobs that the entitled English folk who won't get out of bed for less than £20k as thats what they need to earn to exceed their benefits ( I know this isn;t true , I am generalising /paraphrasing)
and alot of folk wouldnt do it as its hard graft , long hours , zero prospect jobs , with little or no employee protection ( thanks Brexshiteers ) , cold , outdoors , doesn't come with a subsidised canteen , unlimited coffee and fag breaks, 5 weeks holidays plus stats , no overtime at time and a half, and all the other nonsense that some people unrealistically expect
Nice one BJ

So we’re reducing the influx of cheap EU labour and asking UK citizens to work for a living instead of claiming benefits?

Most people on benefits would like to work. If British people are sitting around cos they can't be bothered to work then not having foreigners around isn't going to change that.

Basically all jobs that the entitled English folk who won’t get out of bed for less than £20k as thats what they need to earn to exceed their benefits

How do you get to pick and choose what job you take if you are on jobseekers? I thought you had to take available jobs otherwise they took your benefits away so I'm curious how you can turn down a job and stay on benefits?

I am somewhat conflicted. I'm a fully paid up pro European, labour supporting working class man. But I work in an industry that has seen a huge influx of foreign labour and one that thoughts of a pay rise has long since passed. My boss was on national telly a while back and the interviewer got him to admit that pay increases would never happen whilst there's a ready pool of cheap labour. And this isn't thanks to eastern European workers having a rich history in the printing industry. No, it's because they are willing to work on minimum wage, and do all the hours to scratch a meagre living out of it. What will happen I wonder. Most likely my boss will have to pay higher wages and we will go bust as there's no way we will get higher rates from our clients. Maybe it's what we all deserve.

People seem to be assuming that the immigrants are taking jobs away from Brits. But immigration as a whole grows the economy and creates more jobs. If you suddenly persuade all the immigrants to leave, or even many of them, there'll be loads of unfilled positions. Your boss might not even be able to run his business.

The ONS website doesn't have easily digestible details so here's the BBC's reality check on patel's verbal emission.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/51560120
In summary, economically inactive total is 8.45 million of which 1.87 million are actively seeking work and 6.6 million aren't.
Good news for the 1.87 million as they're going to be in great demand.....Ho ---king Ho.
There's also a sectoral view in another article
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-51560370

Comment up there ^^^ about '£20k on benefits'.
That would only be achievable by claiming a whole raft of benefits and certainly doesn't apply to the vast majority on JSA or UC.

I wonder what the long game is here for Bojo & Dom? On the face of it stopping cheap labour is an anti Tory thing to do so what's the plan?

Also Labour bods saying we need cheap foreign labour grates with me (even if it is true!)

As with all things, when intellectual heavyweights like Iain Duncan Smith and John Redwood are all over the news singing the praises of what a great idea this is, it’s safe to assume that it’s actually catastrophically stupid and will unfold into an absolute disaster*

* see Universal Credit

And this isn’t thanks to eastern European workers having a rich history in the printing industry. No, it’s because they are willing to work on minimum wage, and do all the hours to scratch a meagre living out of it.

Is this not also true of British born people doing the same work for the same money? Why be angry with people working hard and not getting paid enough, rather than those squeezing their workforce? You’re in a union, yes?

Interesting Reality Check about the economically inactive

BBC News - Are economically inactive people the answer to staff shortages?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/51560120

ctk
I wonder what the long game is here for Bojo & Dom? On the face of it stopping cheap labour is an anti Tory thing to do so what’s the plan?

There's only one alternative.

They plan to replace them with cheaper labour from 3rd world countries, but they'll wait until every employer is howling about how they are unable to fill starvation wage jobs because locals are lazy welfare spongers.

Expect an influx of "temporary" workers from Bangladesh, and other poverty stricken countries. They'll probably live in employer supplied barracks and get much less than the living wage.

I thought the same epicyclo.

Levelling up eh?

I suspect this is more like levelling down the SE so that everyone is poorer?

Tis the Tory way.

My work has lost a lot of Polish workers who didn’t come back after the Xmas shutdown. Partly due to Brexit and partly as wages back home have gone up to prevent a labour drain there.

If I'm right, these plans aren't being brought in over time? The plan is to bring them in like a sledgehammer basically?

It'll and on riots. Tory governments usually do.

Can’t wait to see the OAP’s from the local care home wash my car...they have had it too easy for years sitting about with tartan blankets over their knees...they will put those Eastern European’s to shame working from 8am to 8pm most days a week in the freezing cold for minimum wage.

Its going to ultimately result in higher prices for everyone for the impacted sectors. The govt are crazy if they think having to pay staff more won't directly translate to higher prices. 52% of idiots voted for it though...

Basically all jobs that the entitled English folk who won’t get out of bed for less than £20k as thats what they need to earn to exceed their benefits ( I know this isn;t true , I am generalising /paraphrasing)

I know this isn't true , I am generalising / paraphrasing

Yet still people skim read , see a figure , re-quote it out of context to prove the point that I have already stated that I know isnt true. Its the type of statement that gets quoted often

How do choose job seekers jobs Take job , turn up late on day 1 , later on day 2 , not at all on day 3 . Get fired , go back on benefits looking for that £20k a year job that they are all entitled to now we have voted to remove anyone who talks you know, abit foreign

Even on N M W Romanians could earn 4 x what they could at home for comparable work, so they are happy to do alot of hours -Bank a few thousand ££ so they can buy a plot of land and build a house and small holding then 'retire' early back to Romania . That is a convo I have had with a few taxi drivers over the years

Can’t wait to see the OAP’s from the local care home wash my car…

They'll be strapped to commodes, being fed by robots...

Even on N M W Romanians could earn 4 x what they could at home for comparable work, so they are happy to do alot of hours -Bank a few thousand ££ so they can buy a plot of land and build a house and small holding then ‘retire’ early back to Romania .

For counterpoint, the Romanians on my street are a couple, rent a 3 bed house, and are raising two British born kids. I don't think they are going back soon.

Is this not also true of British born people doing the same work for the same money? Why be angry with people working hard and not getting paid enough, rather than those squeezing their workforce? You’re in a union, yes?

you're stating the obvious there. but the point is that there's an even larger pool of those willing to work for those low wages. doesn't do those in work many favours if you are unskilled.

And?

Seriously, you think people currently not working or working for low wages are about to get well paid jobs they want, with easy hours and a back rub from the boss… just by the government keeping people out (and keeping people in) the country if they don’t have a PhD and a chunky salary? The unemployed, and those people in work currently feeling their employers act unfairly towards them, aren’t going to be well looked after by this government, as it seeks to remap our economy at speed from next year. Workers will be squeezed ‘till they pop.

Care sector recruitment is already a national problem, I totally agree with TJ's initial comments about care homes, but feel there is a far greater risk in relation to home care. Regardless of political alliances, I feel the whole political system failed us, all parties, by allowing an election to be effectively a second referendum due to their total incompetence.

Some were incompetent, but for some it played out exactly as they hoped it would.

The salary cap seems the wrong way around to me. Surely you should only be allowed in if your job offer is less than £25k?
That way employers will be forced to give high paying jobs to Brits (maybe having to train them) and we can get immigrants in to do the more menial jobs that will get automated out of existence soon. That way you have a high paid, high skilled local population who can pay lots of taxes, buy lots of consumer goods - keeping the economy churning - and are prepared for the world of the future.

There’s only one alternative.

Given this is the Tories and their solution to every problem they're creating seems to be 'technology' I'm surprised BoJo's not rabbiting on about how robots will take over the crap jobs no one else wants to do.

It sound great for the Tories to put out this message as it is what a lot of people want

What will probably happen in reality is that there will be 100's of exception for each sector which won't be shouted about and covered in the media they will be slowly created week by week.
We need more hospitality people - knock up an exception to ignore the £25K and qualifications criteria
We need more care workers - knock up an exception to ignore the £25k criteria
etc,.

Will end up exactly as it is now but with loads of exceptions that the general public are not aware of are are happy in the knowledge that no immigrants are coming in because of the 70 point thing.

tomhoward
Following on from compulsory contraception the other day, compulsory euthanasia for anyone not able to pay for their own care.

I made that prediction for about now 50 years ago.

As a baby boomer, every time we hit a new step in the system, it wasn't ready for us.

For example they had 5 years advance knowledge of us coming to equip the schools, but got inadequate provision and huge classes, 18 years for university, etc etc.

We have not had a global war to cull the generation as happened with the WW1 and WW2 generations, so more of us survived young adulthood.

Now we are EOL and about to really hit the care system in a tsunami. It will not be able to care for us. Perhaps fortunately for the system, most of my generation smoked heavily so there has been some self-culling.

We'll see measures introduced under the auspices of "dignified death" etc, but with this mob it's likely to have the parameters squeezed until it becomes compulsory or the only option for those whose families cannot afford care. (If you don't know how much that costs, check it out. It will be educational for you)

If we are going to have a Solyent Green government, this lot are shaping up nicely...

I predict an employer backlash; in fact, it’s already started.
Do wetherspoons employ lots of EU nationals? When will tim martin have something to say about this?

Indeed. There was a bloke from NE Scotland fishing industry whose members overwhelmingly voted for Brexit stating that 70% of their workforce are EU migrants. Total facepalm moment. How can they believe all the crap about their low quotas being solely the fault of the EU and not see who they're working with/employing? The bloke on the radio even said there were no locals for these jobs because of the offshore industry, which sounds about right.

The salary cap seems the wrong way around to me. Surely you should only be allowed in if your job offer is less than £25k?
That way employers will be forced to give high paying jobs to Brits (maybe having to train them) and we can get immigrants in to do the more menial jobs that will get automated out of existence soon. That way you have a high paid, high skilled local population who can pay lots of taxes, buy lots of consumer goods – keeping the economy churning – and are prepared for the world of the future.

I see your point, but this doesn't fit with the Tories' thinking very well (if they're poor they can't deserve to be allowed in here) and might cause problems when you start paying foreign GPs pennies*

It does seem to work quite well for the locals in the Gulf region though. The standard of service and cleanliness in hotels in Dubai and Qatar is really good, in Doha I remember there was always someone cleaning something, right down to constant dusting of all the hard surfaces in the hotel lobby. Not sure how I feel ethically about it, but it must work for the workers to some extent or they wouldn't come.

*The global market would probably prevent this to an extent, but it's a potential effect.

There’s only one alternative.

They plan to replace them with cheaper labour from 3rd world countries, but they’ll wait until every employer is howling about how they are unable to fill starvation wage jobs because locals are lazy welfare spongers.

Expect an influx of “temporary” workers from Bangladesh, and other poverty stricken countries. They’ll probably live in employer supplied barracks and get much less than the living wage.

Alternative? This has been the plan all along.

For counterpoint, the Romanians on my street are a couple, rent a 3 bed house, and are raising two British born kids. I don’t think they are going back soon.

In many way's it's like Las Vegas. I was there on a conference and had a taxi twice a day (only real time I saw outside) ... it's a god awful place in the middle of beautiful desert and mountains but I consistently got told by taxi drivers they had come to make money and then go home to settle down and now they were trapped.... this is very much how many of my (EU immigrant) friends feel about the UK now.

"You will need 70 points available by being highly skilled, having a job paying more than £25,000 pounds and a few other things"

so all high skilled jobs now could get a influx of global workers happy to work for £25,000 where existing roles currently demand a higher wage. Meanwhile all those low skilled low salary'd jobs become available due to current workforce getting "kicked out"...that's the way i see the tory plan working. Remove the middle class.

It's like the Tory's are aiming at continuing to woo the working class and sod the middle class. Inverse Tory.

Odd times eh! Mind you,Tory is Tory. Everyone will get screwed one way or another. Just a matter of how and when now.

so all high skilled jobs now could get a influx of global workers happy to work for £25,000 where existing roles currently demand a higher wage. Meanwhile all those low skilled low salary’d jobs become available due to current workforce getting “kicked out”…that’s the way i see the tory plan working. Remove the middle class.

Teachers, nurses etc

The Tory's are simply moving on to the next stage of the project. Whats happening here is that the middle class jobs are effectively going to be outsourced. In much the same way as the working class jobs have been for the last 3 decades with the initial wave of low skilled immigration.

The world of insecure, zero hours, pension and paid-leave-free, gig economy jobs is about to get a lot bigger and move into new middle class areas.

Up to now the tory's have managed to convince the Waitrose class that they're on their side. They're not. They represent the 1%. Always have, always will. They needed the aspirational middle classes on side while they took a hatchet to working class job security. Now they're moving on to the middle class to do the same, they're not going to get much sympathy from the newly-tory-voting former semi-skilled factory workers, now delivering Amazon packages

Classic divide and rule. Classic Dom

The Tory’s are simply moving on to the next stage of the project.

You're assuming there is a plan, like this is all some kind of carefully orchestrated skillfully executes project.

It's not. They are just people who will say anything to anyone to get votes, and now are randomly implementing bits of that to keep people happy with no care for the consequences.

The muppets presently masquerading as the government don't have a plan. Of course not.

Do you honestly think they're the ones calling the shots? You think Priti Patel came up with yesterdays policy announcement? Or Boris? Of course they didn't. I'd imagine they barely have a passing interest. They're all merely (very well-paid) mouthpieces for the real people in charge, who are staying well out of the public eye.

The Brexit campaign and the Tory party are extremely well and extremely opaquely funded. You want to know who's setting the agenda, just follow the money*

* you can't, of course. They've made sure of that. Dominic Cummings will know where the generous funding came from, obviously, but he won't be telling anyone who doesn't need to know

I, for one, welcome our new insect overlords.

Dominic Cummings will know where the generous funding came from, obviously, but he won’t be telling anyone who doesn’t need to know

...such as the Prime Minister

F me few UK is a regressive place....

…such as the Prime Minister

I doubt he'd even ask?

He doesn't strike me as being particularly curious about such matters

He didn't appear to know who paid for his posh holiday in Mustique. Or care.

I seem to know a lot of people who assume that this is all part of some over arching Tory Masterplan.

I'm pretty sure that they don't actually have a clue what the real world implications of their random policy announcements will be, and so they just lurch from one disaster to another.

How do you get to pick and choose what job you take if you are on jobseekers? I thought you had to take available jobs otherwise they took your benefits away so I’m curious how you can turn down a job and stay on benefits?

Basically your weekly/fortnightly trip to the jpb center is little more than an exercise in convincing other people that the government is being strict on benefits claimants. They do sod all to help you find a job, you have to do sod all to convince them you're trying, the only 'evidence' you need to produce is a diary that says you applied for a job.

They ask you have you applied for any jobs. You say yes.

You ask them if there's anything thy can do to help because you won't be able to pay the mortgage next month. They say no.

You digitally sign a UB40 and get the bus home after buying 4x cups of coffee in gregs to give to the tramps at the station just in case karma is real.

How would compulsory employment even work, if the army had a recruitment stand on the day you signed on would you have to be conscripted?

It does seem to work quite well for the locals in the Gulf region though. The standard of service and cleanliness in hotels in Dubai and Qatar is really good, in Doha I remember there was always someone cleaning something, right down to constant dusting of all the hard surfaces in the hotel lobby. Not sure how I feel ethically about it, but it must work for the workers to some extent or they wouldn’t come.

You should probably feel something ethically about it.

Poor person is told they'll earn however much per hour, which seems more than they earn at home. They arrive, are informed that employer provided accommodation will cost most of their wages, the rest is going to be paying off the cost of their air fare for the next decade and their passports* taken off them. It's slavery.

*I was given two bits of advice about the middle east, one never go there without two passports, preferably from different countries. Secondly, do not get caught with two passports. I've never felt the need to go.

I seem to know a lot of people who assume that this is all part of some over arching Tory Masterplan.

I’m pretty sure that they don’t actually have a clue what the real world implications of their random policy announcements will be, and so they just lurch from one disaster to another.

They've published the blueprint years ago. Written in 2012, it's basically a step-by-step guide to whats happening now and what the final destinantion is.... The UK as regulation-free Singapore-esque Tax Haven/sweatshop off the shores of Europe. Look who put their names to it as co-authors (they won't have actually written it, obviously), and look at their present job titles. Have a read of the synopsis an ask yourself if it sounds familiar

Brittania Unchained

They're not ****ing about. They fully intend to use the hardest of hard Brexits to completely re-shape our society and economy, and not for our benefit, that's for sure. As the policy announcements so far have demonstrated.

It absolutely staggers me that people generally seem so disinterested and indifferent to what's happening

Wow, who'd have thought that they actually meant for this shit show to happen!

As Milton Friedman once remarked: “Only a crisis - actual or perceived - produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around.”

…on the floor of Johnson’s car… and pride of place on the shelves of his Vote Leave cabinet ministers.

Singapore, here we come.

I wonder who is actually behind the book.

Its not a book, its so not a genuine and cohesive treatise on modern nation state building and should not be held up as such, it reads more like a pamphlet of disparate ideals padded out with barely literate 6th form psychology.

I can sum it up in a sentence or rather a collection of soundbites (much like the book itself)

Lowered taxes, deregulation of the workplace, reduce/remove the welfare state, work harder for less money and less worker regulation/protection, the free market economy will reach equilibrium eventually and it is just a fact that certain elements of society will be left behind.

It's 110 pages of utter shite masquearading as a shining beacon of "what could be" if the poor would just shut the **** up and get on with it.

I know what i would do with the authors involved (and they did write it, or rather they regurgitated the contents of their bile ducts onto the page) but i'll keep that to myself.

Believe me fella, I'm not holding it up as anything other than a frankly terrifying direction of travel. Lets face it, your summary:

Lowered taxes, deregulation of the workplace, reduce/remove the welfare state, work harder for less money and less worker regulation/protection, the free market economy will reach equilibrium eventually and it is just a fact that certain elements of society will be left behind.

... is pretty much where we're headed, isn't it? Its what Brexit was about right from the off. But to achieve all that they need to be totally 'free from the shackles of the EU'

Thats why it will be a hard/no deal/Australian style Brexit... it has to be.... because they want to be rid us of any ties to EU regulation which they consider as an unneccessary restriction on letting them do whatevr the **** they like. And they don't give a toss what the price to be paid is, because they're not the ones who'll be picking up the tab. We will

And as for what you'd like to do to the authors? I think we're probably in agreement on that. Mine involves lamposts

singletrackmind

Member

Basically all jobs that the entitled English folk who won’t get out of bed for less than £20k as thats what they need to earn to exceed their benefits ( I know this isn;t true , I am generalising /paraphrasing)
and alot of folk wouldnt do it as its hard graft , long hours , zero prospect jobs , with little or no employee protection ( thanks Brexshiteers ) , cold , outdoors , doesn’t come with a subsidised canteen , unlimited coffee and fag breaks, 5 weeks holidays plus stats , no overtime at time and a half, and all the other nonsense that some people unrealistically expect

So is your answer to continue to exploit foreigners by paying them the minimum legally allowed wage in this country to do typically the most difficult, and often the most needed, jobs?

Carers are typically paid the minimum wage, and have poorer work conditions. For example; I can claim 45p a mile to visit my clients ... the carers who visit them are only allowed to claim 19p a mile ...
Its a disgrace that carers are described as unskilled worker; it takes great skill to do their job, and a job that I certainly couldnt do.
Yet we in society are happy to know and allow them to earn minimum wage, whilst expecting them to give a first class and skilled care to our loved ones.
If care homes are forced increase wages then thats a good thing in my opinion. No doubt there will have to be a different model of funding social care, one where we all pay more for the type of service we demand. Unfortunately there are those that do not want to pay more - so will look at exploiting those from other countries.