Really not wanting to open a can of worms but...
Need some help for something that went ping in my back yesterday. It's an osteopath I should go and see isn't it? I might as well be waving a crystal at it (although if it was a crystal of morphine, I'd just eat it) as seeing a chiropractor, yes?
Think the large scale studies showed neither was particularly better than placebo treatment.
How about a Dr or physiotherapist ? Chiropractors have a reputation for WO and my experience of osteopaths is really bad.
^
Yes.
From experience.
I use an osteopath. Works for me, one minor back problem in two years after having 2-3 periods off work a year for several years before that. See him every 6-8 weeks for half an hour to keep things sorted.
It's a weird sensation if you've not had it before, kind of like cracking your knuckles. Disconcerting when he does it to my neck!
Can recommend mine if you are in Derby, but I don't think you are?
If it was a pop in the base of your spine in the pelvic area you might have popped your sacro-iliac joint. A physio will manipulate it for you and you'll walk out like new.
If we're takinga democratic approach to this question, then I'm with crankboy.
I wouldn't trust a chiropractor within a mile of my back, and you would be hard-pressed to convince me that osteos are much better.
Why not a doctor, or better yet, a physiotherapist?
Physio IME (was it a rowing injury?).
I can recommend a couple for you in Bristol.
Iirc osteopathy was the first "alternative" treatment to be recognised and licensed in the UK. It is actually a fairly specific form of physio treatment.
I switched to an osteopath after the physio I was using actually managed to put my back out when I had a knee problem.
If something went ping, why not leave it a few days and see if it sorts itself out. It's unlikely to be anything serious. If you feel the need to you might want to stick some heat on it and take some painkillers.
And if anyone is saying that they can manipulate any thing back into position run a mile.
was it a rowing injury
How I wish it was something that worthwhile. It was a picking-up-a-****ing-suitcase injury. For christ's sake!! 😡
i have tried both, for years. then i tried a physio and i have to say the improvement is huge. i would recommend my one highly.
I can recommend a couple for you in Bristol.
Please, feel free...
I'm with the others on this, go to the docs and get physio too.
In general, the results of randomized, controlled clinical trials have not proven osteopathy to be an effective therapy. Reviews of scientific literature produce little evidence that osteopathic manipulation is effective for the treatment of musculoskeletal pain,[21] or for pediatric conditions.[22]
From [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteopathy#Effectiveness ]osteopathy wikipedia[/url]
A 2011 systematic review of systematic reviews found that collectively, spinal manipulation failed to show it is effective for any condition.[10] A 2008 review found that with the possible exception of back pain, chiropractic manipulation has not been shown to be effective for any medical condition
From [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic#Effectiveness ]Chiropractic wikipeda[/url]
The evidence suggests that passive treatments for back pain are shit as they lead to long term dependence on therapists to prevent relapse. Just go and do some more exercise and you'll be grand.
wanmankylung - Member
The evidence suggests that passive treatments for back pain are shit as they lead to long term dependence on therapists to prevent relapse. Just go and do some more exercise and you'll be grand.
Wrong. A good physio, who makes very clear what is being treated and for how long, is invaluable and often the only thing that can get some of moving again.
Further, s/he can teach you how to exercise more effectively, and avoid hurting yourself in the future. I have suffered indescribably over the last number of years on and off, and the physio has undoubtedly allowed me to avoid more time in hospital.
So you're telling a physio that he's wrong about low back pain are you?
http://www.cochrane.org/CD008880/BACK_spinal-manipulative-therapy-for-acute-low-back-pain
From a previous physio/chiro/osteo? Thread:
Cougar - Moderator
Not the first time this has been asked. Further reading:
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/chiropractic-care-is-this-too-much
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/physio-osteopath-or-chiropractor
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/chiropracters-and-damaged-backs/
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/difference-between-a-chiroprator-osteopath
... and many more.
nedrapier - Member
Ask for personal recommendations.
There are brilliantly gifted, exceptionally perceptive, well trained and sensitive examples of all 3, who would be able to help, their personal skills and approaches being more important than the training path they took.
There are some not so good examples of all 3 as well.
Where are you? There are enough broken, or formerly broken people on here that someone will know someone near you.
@wanmankylung: That's not what I understood you to mean about 'passive treatments'.
I completely and utterly disagree with the neysayers and the insulting term 'bodyworkers'. There are good and bad ones (I saw a woman who booked me for an hour and literally did 10mins of that doing it) and another -regular bloke (he was off on paternity so went with the woman) who'd work you to death, you'd feel sore allover the next day then like new after that.
I've also been to a good Physio (bloke) and a female who wasn't strong enough.
Oh, well, worms right out of the can and crawling around. 🙂
Mods, this is a duplicate thread...please close it. 😐
Please, feel free...
Have a chat with Tim at Cleve Chiropractic. He's a VERY experienced chiro (Bath rugby, Brizzle football, olympics etc) and has physios, sports therapists, masseurs.
http://clevechiropractic.com/
He also has a really cool zero gravity running machine!
I've used a brilliant osteo, and recently a very average physio..
guess its who you get.
After all the advice, I have now made an appointment, but I'm not saying who or what with (it's not a call gilr, or rent boy). I will report back (hurhur) later.
@wanmankylung: That's not what I understood you to mean about 'passive treatments'.
Passive = patient does nowt. Never going to work.
How I wish it was something that worthwhile. It was a picking-up-a-****-suitcase injury. For christ's sake!!
Premium / designer luggage as opposed to cheap (Animal) tat ? 😆
a physio is what you need!
Just pretty ****ing full luggage geoffers. 😆
Premium / designer luggage as opposed to cheap (Animal) tat ?
LOL!
Anyway, have you tried an astrologist?
He's a VERY experienced chiro
Does he do homeopathy as well?
Unless you also have respiratory issues such as asthma, or colic, I'd get a good physiotherapist.
Think the large scale studies showed neither was particularly better than placebo treatment.
it is pretty difficult to fake a manipulation with some sort of placebo, so therefore it is pretty difficult to have a meaningful trial.
Chiropractors tend to try to get you to commit to a course of treatment, which is often needed anyway as they never do much anyway.
The good osteopaths will do a deep tissue massage first before any manipulation. Otherwise your tight muscles tend to pull you back into the poor posture than probably caused the issue in the first place.
I go to one near St Pauls and he works so hard he has just had to take a break because he is suffering from a rotator cuff injury frmo hauling patients around.
He is excellent - he has worked on several injuries I have had and helped all of them - whether it was straightening me up or working on damaged muscles/AC joints/etc.
My wife works for a chiro and gets free treatment, but will pay the train fare to London and his fees to see him instead as she thinks he is a 'magician'. She was getting really bad headaches and he located it to a difficult to get to muscle near her neck - after treatment she was alright for a year and a half until she triggered it again at work.
Conversely I went to a Bupa recommended shoulder specialising physio and he was useless.
But you need a personal recommendation as conscientious physios, chiros, and osteopaths could all converge to the same type of treatment.
Going to a doctor may not be that great a move as they haven't in the past recommended osteos or the like - you could be like my mother who got recommended for a very risky op some years ago, but she has been in fine fettle since courtesy of the local osteo.
This is the guy I go to :
notice that he is working on his pregnant wife in the video. Also notice the Before and After pictures of some bloke with scoliosis, which is something you normally have to have an op for, but he straigtened him up.
Does he do homeopathy as well?
Dunno. He's a doctor so I doubt it.
Give that Bowen Technique a try, very low impact manipulation that's worked for me and backs are its speciality.
I've used a brilliant osteo, and recently a very average physio..
MartynS- is the good one have a northern Irish accent/works in the centre? I can't find where hes moved to if its him.
Dunno. He's a doctor so I doubt it.
No he isn't, he's a chiropractor.
EDIT: Actually, that's presumptuous of me, he could have a doctorate in something else. What's he a doctor of?
Dunno. He's a doctor so I doubt it.
a lot of GP's will advise homoeopathic treatments as they recognise the power of placebo.
Personally chiro did nothing but raise alarm bells for me. Prescribed course of treatment and mild scaremongery.
If it were me, I'd first see a competent massage therapist, as in one that doesn't do woo, then ask advise whether physio would be worthwhile.
If anyone says that you need to see them x amount of times over the next 6 months walk (hobble) away. If you feel you need to see them regularly that's up to you, but no practitioner should be prescribing long term treatment without the involvement of your GP and potential further investigation.
No he isn't, he's a chiropractor.
Well he's called "Dr" and you're not so forgive me if I don't give much weight to your thoughts.
[url= http://www.gcc-uk.org/registration/information-for-chiropractors-who-are-on-the-register/guidance-for-registrants-using-their-registered-name-and-the-gcc-registration-number.aspx ]Shouldn't use Dr unless it's clearly stated Doctor of chiropracteristics ;-)[/url]
essentially it's a 4 year masters course.
Well he's called "Dr" and you're not so forgive me if I don't give much weight to your thoughts.
Then he's either a doctor of something else or acting contrary to the advice of the GCC, it's a "courtesy title." Or you're misremembering, of course.
Try a good one- worth their weight in gold. They really really are. I'm starting to feel stiff allover- going to visit one again then take up Yoga.
Then he's either a doctor of something else or acting contrary to the advice of the GCC, it's a "courtesy title." Or you're misremembering, of course.
Dunno. My memory is fine, he is/is called "Dr" (I don't think Osteopaths are permitted the "courtesy" of using this title are they?).
If he is or isn't a "proper" doctor or not, he knows a lot more about backs, and alleviating associated pain than a "proper doctor" GP. It's also worth noting that he does a massive amount of work for elite sports organisations. If it's good enough for them it's good enough for me. You might think it's all bollocks of course.
There's no 'might' about it. Chiro's are quacks
It's also worth noting that he does a massive amount of work for elite sports organisations.
That means nothing. The best physios I know avoid elite sports like the plague.
Have a read of some of the previous threads linked on the first page, I CBA to type it all out again. There's one in particular where I gave an actual chiropractor a shoeing.
There's no 'might' about it. Chiro's are quacks
Thanks for your expert opinion as an ex-teacher turned webmaster 😀
At least we won't be seeing any full page ads for chiropractors anyway.
At least we won't be seeing any full page ads for chiropractors anyway.
😀
Here you go,
Thanks, didn't look like much of a shoeing though, just a bit of STW-typical berating. Thought the chiro came out of it looking OK.
I have no idea how much of it is science, but having had an underlying back injury for 25 years and having attended Headley Court rehab centre, trying the NHS (worse than useless; clueless and completely NFI) the best result I have had is with a chiro. Hardly surprising I suppose; Headley Court was a shadow of what it is now with all of the Help for heroes money, the NHS just couldn't be bothered and this chap is getting money from my pocket.
What else can you do? If I go limping into a GPs, they won't know anything about how to deal with it, won't be able to help in any way at all, and would just put me on a 9 month waiting list to see......a chiropractor!!!!!
What exactly is that "underlying back injury" that you've had for 25 years?
Pretty much as above, ask around and find yorself a good physio.
NHS choices (always a very good resource for medical matters):
[url= http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/osteopathy/Pages/Introduction.aspx ]Osteopath[/url]
[url= http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/chiropractic/pages/introduction.aspx ]Chiropractor[/url]
[url= http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/physiotherapy/pages/introduction.aspx ]Physiotherapy[/url]
Physios are no better than chiros. One lot are specialist spinal types and the others expert muscle types. I do my own rehabilitive training, I can see no need for a physio to tell me what loads of other physios have.
What exactly is that "underlying back injury" that you've had for 25 years?
Pertty sure it's a disk, nobody has properly diagnosed it. The NHS weren't interested in X Raying it (or doing anything) but my chiro has his own x ray machine so I may ask him to have a look.
Nowadays I manage it, keep a strong core and try to do everything in symmetry (hard carrying a baby!). It generally only "goes" two or three times a year, one of which will be quite severe.
It does affect my riding though, I generally need to stop and stretch after a long descent or ascent. I still get in the gym; squat and deadlift, I just need to have perfect form.
hard carrying a baby
It's like my little fella sensed that today was the day he'd want to be flipping picked up to go every half-yard. Little Flecker.
Darcy; it doesn't matter what the job description of the person who fixes you is; just get it fixed. It'll take longer/more visits than you think. Trust me; it's ****ing soul destroying when it pops out after a long period of being OK.
One lot are specialist spinal types and the others expert muscle types
Yeah, I'm married to a physio and that's really not the distinction.
It's more accurate to loosely say that one is based on biology and physiology and the other total bollocks 🙂
And when in a 'debate' about the merits of one treatment over another the most unreliable sources tend to be personal experience ie. a data point of one.
IMO of course 🙂
And when in a 'debate' about the merits of one treatment over another the most unreliable sources tend to be personal experience ie. a data point of one.
Is that why there are 1000s of chiropractic clinics in the UK? 😀
Why are physios so chippy about chiros? The help I've got from physios has been pretty shit TBH, so I can't see where they get their sense of self importance from.
Physio
Physios are no better than chiros. One lot are specialist spinal types and the others expert muscle types. I do my own rehabilitive training, I can see no need for a physio to tell me what loads of other physios have.
What exactly is that "underlying back injury" that you've had for 25 years?Pertty sure it's a disk, nobody has properly diagnosed it. The NHS weren't interested in X Raying it (or doing anything) but my chiro has his own x ray machine so I may ask him to have a look.
Nowadays I manage it, keep a strong core and try to do everything in symmetry (hard carrying a baby!). It generally only "goes" two or three times a year, one of which will be quite severe.
It does affect my riding though, I generally need to stop and stretch after a long descent or ascent. I still get in the gym; squat and deadlift, I just need to have perfect form.
Dear God you have more yellow flags than Brazil.
Yellow flags in back painThe most important and widely used model for the examination of the spine is the Bio-Psycho-Social model. This aims to encompass all elements of a patient's problem. The aim of the psychosocial assessment is to find those patients who are likely to develop chronicity. The factors which highlight the patient's risk of chronicity can be identified using the 'yellow flags' system:
Attitudes - towards the current problem. Does the patient feel that with appropriate help and self management they will return to normal activities?
Beliefs - The most common misguided belief is that the patient feels they have something serious causing their problem-usually cancer. 'Faulty' beliefs can lead to catastrophisation.
Compensation - Is the patient awaiting payment for an accident/ injury at work/ RTA?
Diagnosis - or more importantly Iatrogenesis. Inappropriate communication can lead to patients misunderstanding what is meant, the most common examples being 'your disc has popped out' or 'your spine is crumbling'.
Emotions - Patients with other emotional difficulties such as ongoing depression and/or anxietous states are at a high risk of developing chronic pain.
Family - There tends to be two problems with families, either over bearing or under supportive.
Work - The worse the relationship, the more likely they are to develop chronic LBP.
Yellow flags can relate to the patient’s attitudes and beliefs, emotions, behaviours, family, and workplace. The behaviour of health professionals can also have a major influence.Key factors in low back pain are:
• The belief that pain is harmful or severely disabling
• Fear-avoidance behaviour (avoiding activity because of fear of pain)
• Low mood and social withdrawal
• Expectation that passive treatment rather than active participation will help.
But you've only been to one. The others are variables we have no data on in this discussion. My point was about being wary of a single customer (you are not a patient if you see a qu.. chiro) ie. you, giving a recommendation of a whole genre of so called treatment based on one personal experience - that data point of one is you in other words.
Think I've posted this before, but I go to a Chiropractor, and they've been great. She's also trained as a physio. But defines herself as a chiro. What she does is similar to what a physio used to do for me, but it is apparently more effective. No crystals or anything.
The help I've got from physios has been pretty shit TBH, so I can't see where they get their sense of self importance from.
Oh Look A Yellow Flag.....
Inappropriate expectations of treatment, including low expectations of active participation in treatment
Basically your back pain is all in your head and you need to man up. You've had a hurty back for 25 years - sort yourself out and get on with it. 😀
Attitudes - towards the current problem. Does the patient feel that with appropriate help and self management they will return to normal activities?
I have never stopped normal activities.
Beliefs - The most common misguided belief is that the patient feels they have something serious causing their problem-usually cancer. 'Faulty' beliefs can lead to catastrophisation.
Have I mentioned that I have cancer or a deep underlying illness?
Compensation - Is the patient awaiting payment for an accident/ injury at work/ RTA?
Nope.
Diagnosis - or more importantly Iatrogenesis. Inappropriate communication can lead to patients misunderstanding what is meant, the most common examples being 'your disc has popped out' or 'your spine is crumbling'.
Nope. You asked, I guessed (and presented it as a guess)
Emotions - Patients with other emotional difficulties such as ongoing depression and/or anxietous states are at a high risk of developing chronic pain.
Nope, all OK.
Family - There tends to be two problems with families, either over bearing or under supportive.
Neither.
Work - The worse the relationship, the more likely they are to develop chronic LBP.
Fine at work, no time off for LBP in the last year and only one in the last 3 years.
I have none of those "yellow flags". Zero. Nil.
Key factors in low back pain are:
• The belief that pain is harmful or severely disabling
Nope.
• Fear-avoidance behaviour (avoiding activity because of fear of pain)
Nope, as I stated, I ride and go to the gym.
• Low mood and social withdrawal
Nope.
• Expectation that passive treatment rather than active participation will help.
Nope, as I have said, I do lots of stuff to manage my injury.
Dear God you have more yellow flags than Brazil.
I haven't though have I?
Eh - yes you do. The passive treatment one. 😀
But you've only been to one.
Erm..no. I have seen 4 or 5 (military, private and NHS)
Oh Look A Yellow Flag.....
It's honesty. They were crap.
Eh - yes you do. The passive treatment one.
You even quoted this yourself;
Nowadays I manage it, keep a strong core and try to do everything in symmetry (hard carrying a baby!). It generally only "goes" two or three times a year, one of which will be quite severe.
It does affect my riding though, I generally need to stop and stretch after a long descent or ascent. I still get in the gym; squat and deadlift, I just need to have perfect form.
Managing my injury through exercise is not passive. I'm massively proactive, I have to be.
Basically your back pain is all in your head and you need to man up. You've had a hurty back for 25 years - sort yourself out and get on with it.
I've never stopped getting on with it. When it goes, it goes. I have a rest then start again. It's bloody horrible though.
Why you going to the chiro then?
Why you going to the chiro then?
Who else can I go to? When it goes, it needs manipulating. The spinal erectors just lock solid. I get chiro and massage (same clinic) and then I'm able to start the mobility stuff and get training again. Being told "do these exercises for a few weeks" is no use whatsoever.
Stick some heat on it.Who else can I go to?
What makes you think that it needs manipulating? And what makes you think that pushing through a spasm is safe?
Stick some heat on it.
Why didn't I think of that? 😉
And what makes you think that pushing through a spasm is safe?
It's the only thing that has ever worked. The chiro doesn't "push" or "click" it in, he moves me around in a certain way and it just seems to release it or whatever. The masseuse comes in and beats me up and then I'm up straight and walking OK with only a little pain.
Do you know anything about descending pain inhibition? If not, you might want to look it up and save yourself a few bob.
Basically your back pain is all in your head and you need to man up.
I do hope that you're not medically trained giving advice like this. You have no idea what this physical injury is, or how it feels. It isn't something you (or anyone) could somehow ignore or zone out of.
I do hope that you're not medically trained giving advice like this. You have no idea what this physical injury is, or how it feels. It isn't something you (or anyone) could somehow ignore or zone out of.
I belong to one of the professions mentioned elsewhere in this thread. I am not however married to Mark.
Are you married to his wife?
I belong to one of the professions mentioned elsewhere in this thread. I am not however married to Mark.
So you think I'm being a wuss? I can assure you, I'm no stranger to pain.
Are you in the NHS by any chance? I think I recognise the bedside manner.
Did I say that I think you're being a wuss? I think that you have it in your head that you need help with your back pain on a regular basis. I also think that you think there is something seriously wrong with your back. I also think that you have not taken complete ownership or your back pain issue as illustrated by the fact that you've had it for a quarter of a century and you haven't got a firm diagnosis on it yet. I think you need to either put up and shut up or get someone to find out why it keeps relapsing and give you a method of sorting it.
I get chiro and massage (same clinic)
Have you tried having one and not the other, out of interest?
Have you tried having one and not the other, out of interest?
I would have the massage before the manipulation, myself - so you were nicely relaxed before the cracking.
Either that or have a few beers first - I tried that last time - in conjunction with some ibuprofen it worked well.
It used to take 2 or 3 sessions at a local, competent, osteopath to completely nail an issue, but only 1 at the osteo that does the remedial massage first, as it tends to 'stick'.
Not that I go often - I use one of these for my most common issue, which is normally caused by poor posture :
http://www.thebackcoach.co.uk/howtouse.php
I also prefer osteos as they seem a lot less direct than a chiro. Seems safer...
Also tried one of these, which was very good :
http://www.jdharris.com/backlife-lower-back-pain
the motion is similar to what a physio might do to loosen you up.
[IMG] 
[/IMG]
I also think that you think there is something seriously wrong with your back.
Your right, I do because there is.
I also think that you have not taken complete ownership or your back pain issue as illustrated by the fact that you've had it for a quarter of a century and you haven't got a firm diagnosis on it yet.
This actually made me laugh. I went to the docs whilst it was in spasm hoping/expecting to be referred to a specialist and was told that the waiting list for a physio is 6 months, didn't even look at it. 😯 He laughed when I asked if I could have an X Ray (in fact his approach seemed similar to yours). Off I goes to (another) physio; privately paid as I'm bent double in pain, I can't stand up straight. Does a bit of an assessment and takes me through some exercises (which I already know from previous physios). Do these for a few weeks and come back. Meanwhile I'm still bent double in pain. useless.
Then off I go to the chiro. Has a really good look, checks my full limit of movement, listens to the story of the original injury and how it recurs, moves me around. He was the only one who listened as much as talked. Makes some adjustments etc. Followed up with a massage and I'm walking like a human again.
You can't really blame me for my opinions on chiros and physios.
I think you need to either put up and shut up
super useful, thanks.
Have you tried having one and not the other, out of interest?
Yeah, I have massages quite often (very useful). I don't see the chiro very often, but I do feel the benefit when I go.
The original injury occurred when i was part of the commando contingent for an international march and shoot competition in Bosnia. For 6 days a week for 2 months my "job" was to run up and down hills in boots with a weapon and bergen. I loved it. My mistake was ignoring a pain in my lower back as soon after it went. A trip to the RAMC and a Voltarol injection in my leg and I'm off to HC for rehab. And the competition got cancelled anyway 😐
This is why you should NEVER ignore a pain in your lower back. There is pain for a bloody reason.
Though this isn't to be received as any form of medical advice....
I imagine whether you see a chiropractor, osteopath, GP, physio, garra rufa fish foot spa, or [s]prostitute[/s] call girl, in about 4 weeks your back pain is probably going to have 'been fixed'....
DrP