[Closed] Average speed cameras work. Are they even on ?

Any suggestions, given we've established it's just as safe as the bit a few miles away which is 70 limit (I'd actually argue that bit is less safe)?

Have you tried finding out why the limit was reduced? This information is usually available.

ahwiles - Member

it's a limit, not a target.

Yes but often the speed limits set bear no relationship to the road conditions or the actual improvement in vehicle technology in the last 50 years since limits were introduced. I'd far rather (and believe it is far safer) to take road and traffic conditions into account when I choose what an appropriate speed is - not blindly drive around believing that so long as I stick to at or below the posted limit then that makes me a safe driver, as so many on here seem to think.

is it really that hard sticking to the limit?

That's not the point we're debating. Still waiting for you to explain why it's not safe just because there are signs with 50 on.

how much time are you saving by driving at 57 instead of 50orless?

A bit less than you save by driving at 70 rather than 50 in a 70 limit.

[quote=rebel12]Yes but often the speed limits set bear no relationship to the road conditions or the actual improvement in vehicle technology in the last 50 years since limits were introduced. I'd far rather (and believe it is far safer) to take road and traffic conditions into account when I choose what an appropriate speed is - not blindly drive around believing that so long as I stick to at or below the posted limit then that makes me a safe driver, as so many on here seem to think.

Oh dear, oh dear.... so by that logic, by going [b]faster[/b] than the speed limit, you're actually a safer driver? Seriously?

You do have the option to choose the appropriate speed - [b]up to[/b] the speed limit in force.

Nobody's forcing you to drive/ride around [b]exactly on[/b] the speed limit all the time....

aracer - Member

Still waiting for you to explain why it's not safe just because there are signs with 50 on.

it's only been a couple of minutes! 🙂

from page9 (i had a think, and then edited/blathered a bit):

ahwiles - Member

anyway, to try and respond to your question fairly:

maybe it is, maybe it isn't. you don't have to convince me, i'm not a policeman/judge. Carry on about your buisness as you see fit.

2000 people are killed every year by motor vehicles, the [u]least [/u] we can do is question our national driving behaviour, which clearly sucks. Speeding is part of that.

Still waiting for you to explain why it's not safe just because there are signs with 50 on.

It's LESS safe to be going faster; it's LESS safe because people will be expecting you to be doing broadly near 50.

Driving is never safe, it's not a case of being perfectly fine at 50 and deadly at 51.

But you know that, it's obvious, you are just playing reductio ad absurdum.

not blindly drive around believing that so long as I stick to at or below the posted limit then that makes me a safe driver, as so many on here seem to think.

Don't be stupid, that's not at all what we're saying.

Oh dear, oh dear.... so by that logic, by going faster than the speed limit, you're actually a safer driver? Seriously?

I don't know your driving history so please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd hazzard a guess with the extra driver training I've done over the years then yes, there's probably a good chance I'm quite a bit safer than you at any speed.

Do an IAM driving course (or similar) and you will see how little you currently know about safety or driving. It opened my eyes (and my mind) and no doubt it might do the same for you.

rebel12 - Member

with the extra driver training I've done over the years then yes, there's probably a good chance I'm quite a bit safer than you at any speed.

well done you.

i'm sure you're an excellent driver, do you mind keeping your exuberance to the track?

Read a statistic somewhere that excess speed was only a factor in around 7% of all accidents. Yet there seems many on here who treat speed as the holy grail when it comes to road safety.

Which says to be that "excess speed" is a subjective definition which relies on speed being an obvious causative factor in a retrospective investigation.

on the other hand, the Transport Research Laboratory FIRMLY correlates speed with accident frequency:

[i]The scope for reducing accidents by means of speed
management depends on the operational characteristics
of the road. The percentage reduction in accident
frequency achievable per 1mile/h reduction in average
speed is between 2-7%. The earlier 5% figure remains a
robust
general
rule. The reduction achievable, however,
varies according to the road type and the average traffic
speed. Specifically, it is:

- about 6% for urban roads with low average speeds;

- about 4% for medium speed urban roads and lower
speed rural main roads;

- about 3% for the higher speed urban roads and rural
main roads.[/i]

I don't know your driving history so please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd hazzard a guess with the extra driver training I've done over the years then yes, there's probably a good chance I'm quite a bit safer than you at any speed.

As I said a couple of pages back. The fact that you may be a safer/better driver at speed is irrelevant. Speed limits are not just about reducing speed and mitigating the severity of crashes, they are also about creating a standard and predictable environment on the roads which helps to prevent crashes. Do you accept this point?

Regardless of safety, there's another point.

You can't trust people to make their own judgement about speed. That's why we have limits.

The percentage reduction in accident
frequency achievable per 1mile/h reduction in average
speed is between 2-7% ... The reduction achievable, however,
varies according to the road type and the average traffic
speed. Specifically, it is:

- about 6% for urban roads with low average speeds;

- about 4% for medium speed urban roads and lower
speed rural main roads;

- about 3% for the higher speed urban roads and rural
main roads.

hang on, are those numbers [u]per[/u] mph reduction? - because that's how i'm reading it - that's massive!

**** me.

Don't be stupid, that's not at all what we're saying.

ahwiles - Member

rebel12 - Member

with the extra driver training I've done over the years then yes, there's probably a good chance I'm quite a bit safer than you at any speed.

well done you.

i'm sure you're an excellent driver, do you mind keeping your exuberance to the track?

In a similar vein I could say, do you mind keeping your low skilled ass off the road. See it sounds just as ridiculous doesn't it?

You can't trust people to make their own judgement about speed. That's why we have limits.

i'm suggesting that it's safer, and easy to stick to speed limits. legal oppurtunities do exist to drive as quickly as you want, they're called 'track days'/gokarting/mini-moto/etc.

you're asking me to not drive.

which one's ridiculous?

Lifer - Member

Really? I thought it was written on signs beside the road...

We weren't talking about the speed limit, do keep up (and the speed limit is not always on signs besides the road, their are other methods).

2000 people are killed every year by motor vehicles, the least we can do is question our national driving behaviour, which clearly sucks. Speeding is part of that.

That may be true, but I'd hazard it's far from being a primary cause. It's just the easiest to enforce. Until someone invents tailgating cameras, mobile phone cameras and not looking where you're bloody going cameras, "kill your speed" is going to remain a lead campaign.

The problem I have with that isn't "I want to drive fast" so much as, it's a smokescreen which diverts attention from other issues. The government get their PR as they are seen to be 'doing something' to improve road safety, but the upshot is that nothing ever really changes.

the Transport Research Laboratory FIRMLY correlates speed with accident frequency:

If I'm reading that correctly, they're saying that it has the least effect on high-speed carriageways. You'd think it'd be the other way around, wouldn't you?

Cougar - Moderator

That may be true, but I'd hazard it's far from being a primary cause

it appears to be a massive factor.

If I'm reading that correctly, they're saying that it has the least effect on high-speed carriageways. You'd think it'd be the other way around, wouldn't you?

rural road are the most dangerous.

It's LESS safe to be going faster

So let's get some blokes with red flags, as I suggested on the first page.

Driving is never safe, it's not a case of being perfectly fine at 50 and deadly at 51.

But you know that, it's obvious, you are just playing reductio ad absurdum.

Congratulations. How else am I supposed to argue when other people are suggesting the speed limit is black and white in terms of safety, that people who are capable of choosing an appropriate speed for the conditions all by themselves are dangerous loons?

it appears to be a massive factor.

7% according to the stats.

per mph...

The "speed kills" campaign ended years ago (replaced by the "Think" thing). It's a wonder they didn't just rename it "Inappropriate Speed Kills". It would have saved lots in re-design of existing ads, posters, info material etc. in fact, I'm on a phone so can't check. Was it ever the name of a campaign in this country of was it Australia, the US or somewhere else?

Speed limits are not just about reducing speed and mitigating the severity of crashes, they are also about creating a standard and predictable environment on the roads which helps to prevent crashes. Do you accept this point?

Not unless you've got some sort of evidence to back that up. It might arguably be a side effect but I'm not aware that that's why they're in place. If that were the case, we'd have the same limit for all classes of traffic.

Historically, speed limits were introduced to stop motor manufacturers using the motorway as a test track. It's obviously evolved since then though.

but it is the broad message given by the whole 'speed kills' campaign that conveniently ignores the more dangerous problem of shoddy driving and inattention that is causal in many many accidents

I completely disagree. In all the campaigns I've seen I cannot ever remember thinking that was the message. I think you are deliberately distorting the message to justify what you want to be doing. Actually it may not be deliberate, you may be doing it subconsciously.

but is hard to monetise so not so attractive to the policy makers

1) This is complete paranoid garbage. If they really wanted to make tons of money from speeding motorists they could do a hell of a lot more, like put vans on the A48 in Cardiff for example.

2) What's so bad about the police making money from law breakers? They don't put the money in their trouser pocket you know, it gets spent on policing. I'm sure many of the people bleating about making money from traffic fines would be the first to complain about poorly funded police forces when someone commits a crime against them...

ahwiles - Member

i'm suggesting that it's safer, and easy to stick to speed limits.

you're asking me to not drive.

which one's ridiculous?

To be honest with the lack of interest you have shown in improving your own driving skills the I'd probably prefer it if you didn't drive anywhere near me. You may think you're a good driver because you passed your test but all that confirms is that you have reached the very minimum standard at some point in the dim and distant past. Do yourself and the rest of us a favour and at the very least, get yourself a refresher lesson.

Like I've said before, not breaking the limit does not make you a safe driver or even a safer driver. I have seen many more cases of incredibly dangerous driving at speeds way below the limit than I have above it. Naturally, less skilled drivers tend to drive slower so maybe this is why? Slower though does not make the roads safer for the rest of us if they do something stupid, even at very low speed.

edlong - Member

If you're driving sensibly, the limit on any modern car might as well be in a different galaxy. You don't need to worry about it unless you're racing. If you're driving anywhere near the limit of your car's capabilities on a public road then you're a danger to yourself and everyone else. Go to a track if you want to do this.

The limits of a car's capabilities change constantly and dramatically due to changes in the road, so I'll ask you again: how do you know where those limits are?
To be frank, you sound like exactly the sort of person who is going to get caught out.
I've seen a car end up on it's roof at no more than 20mph.

That may be true, but I'd hazard it's far from being a primary cause. It's just the easiest to enforce. Until someone invents tailgating cameras, mobile phone cameras and not looking where you're bloody going cameras, "kill your speed" is going to remain a lead campaign.

So are you suggesting that we don't do the easy things and do the hard things to the exclusion of all else? Again, more upside down logic. No one is suggesting that other things aren't also a problem or that they shouldn't be addressed. But as you say speed limits are easy to enforce, so it's a no-brainer to do that first and then tackle the more complex issues.

The problem I have with that isn't "I want to drive fast" so much as, it's a smokescreen which diverts attention from other issues. The government get their PR as they are seen to be 'doing something' to improve road safety, but the upshot is that nothing ever really changes.

Actually it's worse than that. By emphasising speed so much people start to think that provided they're not speeding then they're driving safely. I'd argue it's actually counter productive to some extent.

other people are suggesting the speed limit is black and white in terms of safety

Where are we suggesting that?

that people who are capable of choosing an appropriate speed for the conditions all by themselves are dangerous loons

People who [B]THINK[/B] they are capable of choosing an appropriate speed are likely to be dangerous loons, yes. Because we are crap at evaluating risk.

When is it ever acceptable for people to make up their own laws based on how they feel? Maybe we should be allowed to beat people up if we think they deserve it?

Oh and as for concentrating on speed at the expense of anything else - really?

Don't drink and drive
Look out for motorbikes
Don't drive on drugs
Keep your distance
Clunk click every trip
Stop look and listen
Don't be an amber gambler
Don't run level crossings

Mobile phone usage has also been criminalised and talked about a lot, but without a catchy slogan.

Currently a very big motorbike awareness campaign (for drivers) running on XFM, has been for ages. No speeding ads though.

You may think you're a good driver because you passed your test but all that confirms is that you have reached the very minimum standard at some point in the dim and distant pass. Do yourself and the rest of us a favour and at the very least, get yourself a refresher lesson.

not a bad idea.

you make some good points, and raise interesting questions, but you can be quite rude about it.

This thread just gets better by the minute...

For what it's worth, Cougar appears to be winning this thread, massively. Is that even allowed as a mod? <posts reported>

speed limits are easy to enforce, so it's a no-brainer to do that first and then tackle the more complex issues

By "no brainer" I presume you mean what you do when you've not thought about it properly.

The limits of a car's capabilities change constantly and dramatically due to changes in the road, so I'll ask you again: how do you know where those limits are?

Er, how do YOU know when there's diesel on the road then?

People who THINK they are capable of choosing an appropriate speed are likely to be dangerous loons, yes

Ah, so the drivers who are just plain ignorant and need speed signs in order to tell them to slow down for bends are safer?

What's so bad about the police making money from law breakers? They don't put the money in their trouser pocket you know, it gets spent on policing.

No it doesn't, it goes back to the treasury I believe.

In any case, do you really want a situation where the police are on commission? I'm not convinced I do.

are you suggesting that we don't do the easy things and do the hard things to the exclusion of all else? Again, more upside down logic.

It's only upside down logic because you've invented an opinion I don't hold in order to attack it.

Ah, so the drivers who are just plain ignorant and need speed signs in order to tell them to slow down for bends are safer?

No.

The safest ones are the ones who are observant and careful, AND drive at relaxed speeds not exceeding the speed limit.

Why are you trying to make out it's either/or? It's poor logic.

Not unless you've got some sort of evidence to back that up. It might arguably be a side effect but I'm not aware that that's why they're in place. If that were the case, we'd have the same limit for all classes of traffic.

Thank you. Yet another example of ignoring common sense and simple logic in order to justify an unjustifiable position. It's blatant common sense that speed limits prevent accidents by enforcing standardised driving behaviour, it's the same principle as everyone driving on the same side of the road. Although to use the warped logic of the anti-limit brigade, this shouldn't be necessary either as long as everyone has done a course in advanced avoidance of oncoming traffic.

Well apparently doing 57 on a road which is safe at 70 makes me a dangerous loon.

dazh - Member

There's no point. These people have convinced themselves that cars are a plaything and the public roads are their race track

Advanced driving is primarily about driving safely, and reduced insurance premiums are proof that it works. I don't treat the roads as a race track, and my 1995 Nissan Micra is not a plaything.
[i]Do stop talking bollocks[/i].

(they pay taxes don't you know!)

I'm fairly sure you're the first person to mention taxes of any kind in this thread.
[i]Do stop talking bollocks[/i].

and they've constructed an entire rationale based on warped logic to justify their actions.

You accused me of using warped logic earlier in the thread, yet you failed to point out why my viewpoint was wrong, and failed to offer an alternative viewpoint of your own.
Are you going to have the balls to do that now?
Or would you rather retract that statement and [i]stop talking bollocks[/i].

Personally I'd have more respect for them if they just came out and admitted that they don't give a sh*t for anyone else and that risking death and injury to others is a price worth paying for their 'fun'. Trouble is they won't admit that cos they still see themselves as 'responsible' road users and they crave acceptance by everyone else, hence the ridiculous justifications.

Advanced drivers are safer drivers. The proof is in the reduced premiums.
You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.
Go on a commented drive with an IAM associate, then come back when you are not talking from a position of complete ignorance. 💡 🙂

aracer - Member
Well apparently doing 57 on a road which is safe at 70 makes me a dangerous loon.

How did you conclude it was 'safe' ? (Genuine question...)

Habitually speeding makes you a more dangerous driver than you otherwise would be.

Bottom line - the speed limit is not your decision to make.

aracer - Member

Well apparently doing 57 on a road which is safe at 70 makes me a dangerous loon.

it's the belief that you can interpret speed-limits to suit yourself that leads me to maintain my 'dangerous loon' assessment.

It's blatant common sense that speed limits prevent accidents by enforcing standardised driving behaviour

Ah, it's "blatant common sense"? So you concede that you've made it up, then. Good, we're getting somewhere now.

sbob - Member

"Lifer - Member

Really? I thought it was written on signs beside the road... "

We weren't talking about the speed limit, do keep up (and the speed limit is not always on signs besides the road, their are other methods).

Bless.

[url= http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/facetious ]Facetious[/url]