That's not what I'm saying Molgrips, not at all. I'm not advocating driving faster due to a better car, I'm saying (although I can't find any data on it) that a faster, better handling and braking car is safer for a given speed. The actual speed I used was 50mph. I was assuming that wouldn't be in a 30mph zone...
You're quite right, at any given speed a sports car may well be safer. And I've got no problem with sports cars being driven sensibly.
But that's not what this thread is about, is it? Surely 'pushing it' on a twisty B road in a fast car means significantly higher speeds than normal?
I came off my mtb at less than 20 on 2nd Feb and have still not recovered. Indeed Mr surgeon man says I need more surgery...otherwise, broadly speaking I agree with molgrips! !
But you didn't risk hurting anyone else.
I fell off my bike two years ish ago. Pretty innocuous crash very low speed, just indecision of which way to go. I landed on a rock, solo, face (cheek) first. I tried to bite my way out of my own face! I had tweety pie dancing when I came too.
I've chattered down that same trail at 20+ mph previously without incident. These things happen, people overtake, people crash, nothing is going to stop that.
Meanwhile back on topic, I took my new S3 out tonight for a wee blast in full dynamic mode (full exhaust, increased throttle response, heavier steering, higher revs before STronic shifts)...... Very fast but still lacking any dynamics. Very nice environment inside however with the full bang and olufsen sound system pumping out some deep house on the way back from the forest with the bike secured on the roof.....nice!
Well this has gone totally off topic!
The new S3 does indeed look like a good package. I think it looks quite smart although slightly dull. Not keen on quad pipes though on a hot hatch with a four pot. I'd expect it to pretty brisk with 300 ponies under the bonnet.
Not sure about an RS4 showing it a clean pair of heels given the well documented coking issues and them putting out around 365bhp or so. Given the extra weight it'll close the gap. That's not to say that I don't love the B7 RS4, because I do. The one I drove was ace fun and sounded amazing. I'd like to replace our 330 with one soon.
The B5 is ace too. Saw a red one yesterday and it looked fab. The big downside to modern hot hatches is the four pot engines are just so dull and soulless. The big draw for the RS4 is that engine...the noise is amazing.
I'd go for a Scirocco personally. 170bhp tdi should be fast enough without being silly.
As this thread is going off topic…….
A couple of years ago my mate had one of the last B7 RS4's that had the full ABT engine/dynamic treatment and de-chromed, when pushed hard it left me feeling rather ill - the acceleration from such a large lump of a vehicle along with the cornering speeds were astounding - as per the original coking issues with the valve system above it did suffer from this but Audi/ABT UK picked the vehicle up and left an ABT TT Quattro in it's place for the 5 days it took to remedy the issue so they were very decent. And before we get any wet hand wringers he was an RAC rally champ twice in the 90's with his BDA Escorts and we often went to the ring and spa on track days. (towed the RS4 with his partners ABT Q7) and on normal roads the RS4 was driven with due care.
I had it advertised on the [i]for sale[/i] forum on here but despite a few tyre kickers no one wanted it and he eventually sold it for £30,000, cheap for a one owner 2007 RS4 with 6000 miles and full ABT service history on it but no-one was interested in such a car, you may be able to afford one but the running and servicing costs put most folk off.
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The ABT Q7 is an awesome barge, pretty ugly but a very nice place to be for extended journeys, especially compared to my 30yr old MK2 Golf Gti which is rather agricultural to say the least, the Q7 can easily do 150mph+ on the autobahn and even at that speed it feels rock solid.
I fell off my bike two years ish ago. Pretty innocuous crash very low speed, just indecision of which way to go. I landed on a rock, solo, face (cheek) first. I tried to bite my way out of my own face! I had tweety pie dancing when I came too.
I've chattered down that same trail at 20+ mph previously without incident. These things happen, people overtake, people crash, nothing is going to stop that.
The massive difference between riding a bike and driving a car (either sensibly or in a 'spirited manner' with a desire to 'make progress') is the duty of care you owe to other road users and the potential consequences of your own actions, lapses of concentration or being pissed up giving some beans.
People on bikes kill .5 people a year, motorised vehicles kill far more frequently.
Somafunk that looks the tits.
I think its a car that's aged really well and still looks chunky and fast without being OTT with loads of silly bulges and wings.
The chap I knew with the RS4 has replaced it with a V10 RS6. Now that thing has scary running costs (he's recently had a £7k bill). But it's hilarious that a car that big and luxurious can move so damn quickly.
And before we get any wet hand wringers he was an RAC rally champ twice in the 90's with his BDA Escorts and we often went to the ring and spa on track days. (towed the RS4 with his partners ABT Q7) and on normal roads the RS4 was driven with due care.
I didn't think an Escort had won the RAC rally since the 1970s.
Also an RS4 seems like a strange choice for track days as I would have thought it was too heavy and not nimble enough. Having said that, I've only driven UK circuits and not somewhere as fast and long as Spa or the Nurburgring.
He has a thing for Audi's (quattro's especially) as Ari Vatanan is a sort of idol/hero to him, he previously owned one of Ari Vatanans group B Quattro's that he cherished like a child and that was quite possibly the most terrifying car i have ever been a passenger in, but yet it was also a strangely calming place to be after a few laps as my senses seemed to switch off, or i imagine they resigned to being a totally helpless passenger - unfortunately it proved to be rather impractical to use as a track/part time rally car as it needed a surgical team around it to keep it in full tune and it cost an absolute fortune to run such a vehicle - his biggest regret in his life so far is selling it and every car since has been chasing that experience so to speak, the RS4 was his ultimate road car but it still left a lot to be desired compared to previous cars as it was a tuned road car at heart.
gachet : he won his class numerous times, beating quite a few 4wd cars on certain stages. He owned a very well regarded car repair bodyshop in brick lane which proved useful as he drove 10/10ths everywhere, sometimes with alarming results which had to be turned round in time for the following weekends racing.
He's thinking bout a no expense spared return to his fav car ever though - MK2 Escorts - i'm looking forward to this if it comes off 😀 .
mindmap3 : We went across to to Nurburgring for an ABT invite weekend last year and got to play in a variety of cars (i was merely a passenger unfortunately) and the R8 full ABT spec road/track car was so fierce at acceleration and pin sharp turn in that i doubt it would be happy being driven at normal speeds on the roads, but saying that if someone was to give me one i'd certainly try 😉 , the RS6 i imagine is very similar.
As we are now speaking of RS I can vouch for these having driven one, another level up from the S.
But that's not what this thread is about, is it? Surely 'pushing it' on a twisty B road in a fast car means significantly higher speeds than normal?
Define 'normal'. Molgrips don't-you-dare-overtake-me-i'm-next-in-the-queue 'normal', doddery grandad 40 mph [i]everywhere[/i] normal, dumb teenager 100 on the straight, 20 in the corner normal? Or, just driving to the conditions?
I'm still amused that people would rather meet a carelessly driven yet slow car rather than an observantly driven fast car. Presumably the former is less disturbing for high horses.
The very big "if" though is that a quickly well driven car is better to meet than a poorly driven slow one if the driver is as much of a driving god as everyone on stw is. I would certainly rather meet a poorly driven slow car when out on my motorbike than a poorly driven fast one and most cars are poorly driven. Just because someone can drive quickly on a track doesn't mean they have the skills to drive well on the road.
Sensible is around the speed limit without hard cornering and braking, and slowing when you can't see ahead. Isn't that obvious? It's what the majority of people do it seems.
PS I don't drive at 40mph everywhere.
I'm still amused that people would rather meet a carelessly driven yet slow car rather than an observantly driven fast car
Who said that? I certainly don't agree. I would rather meet a carefully driven car at sensible speed. Care and speed are not inversely proportional.
No Molgrips, sensible is to drive at a speed that's appropriate for the conditions, not to blindly follow what the signs say.
So it would seem that people on here who've never had any additional driver road training really can't see how it could possibly make anyone a safer, more capable road driver? Well stick your head in the sand if you want but I'm afraid you're very, very wrong - by the same logic you may as we'll say that the British Cycling team would have done just as well at the Olympics without any form of coaching.
Similarly with fast cars, the level in grip, performance, real world braking, tyres etc (despite what Un-Educator is trying to prove) between these and regular models is astoundingly different. So those saying otherwise have clearly never experienced it for themselves. Many of the safety features found on your regular shopping hatchback today were first introduced on higher performance cars, and have gradually filtered down the chain to benefit everyone.
I had my RS de carbonized and it was a significantly more pleasurable drive after that
I would rather meet a carefully driven car at sensible speed.
Which is obvious, hence why I didn't provide it as an option. You know that I'm trying to get at, hence your next statement:
Care and speed are not inversely proportional.
Which is quite true. However, we're note even talking about speed here, the thread is about a reasonably fast car, not how fast or in what manner it's being driven. Most of the posts that have successfully derailed this thread from one about a car to the manner in which a tiny minority may drive it are clearly equating speed with poor driving.
Fast observant driving is safer than slow unobservant driving. You're more likely to avoid an accident if you see a situation developing no matter what speed you're going at, compared to trying to map read, change a CD, argue with your partner or pacify the kids. As a new father, I can safely say I'm pretty shocked at just how distracting a screaming baby can be when you're trying to drive, and I just tend to ignore here. Being a passenger when MrsZ drives (who occasionally seems to think calming baby is more important than driving) scares me rotten. Yet driving at 40 mph on a NSL A road whilst trying to pacify an irate offspring is a lot more legal than driving at 70 on the same road minus screaming baby.
S3's stunning pieces of car loveliness.
Always catch my eye way better than BMW et al
Sorry to gate crash the thread. Normal service can resume debating anything but the car mentioned in the title.
Have a nice Easter
Agent007 I have passed my IAM's bike test and still think you are talking site. As for the blindly following what the signs say well it helps others predict your actions so is important. By all means go a bit faster in a clear national but don't think your god like observation, skills and sporty car make you safer, they don't you have increased your risk and everyone else's.
PS I don't drive at 40mph everywhere.
I think folk like to make stuff up before making their points sometimes. I guess they feel it must help.
Somafunk - the acceleration of the RS6 is just plain rude for an estate car. The surge of power is incredible and very addictive, even in normal mode where you just ride a sea of torque. In sport mode it literally goes whoosh and pins you to the seat. You can feel the wright in corners and under braking though. The scariest thing is the ability to gain silly speeds without breaking a sweat....it's quick up to a point and silly beyond that. It rides well in comfort mode too, really well. Fuel consumption is obscene though.
There is a chap on Pistonheads who has one tuned to 780 bhp or so and is mental. He out a video up of a drag day and it was destroying some serious sports cars! Silly but fun.
If if if if I'm awesome (and so is my car) I can drive fast.
Loads of ifs in this thread.
What is certain is that for the same standard of driving it's safer to do it within the rules of the roads.
I think Agent007 is intoxicated with Power and therefore reasoning is somewhat diminished.
No Molgrips, sensible is to drive at a speed that's appropriate for the conditions, not to blindly follow what the signs say.
I'm not advocating blindly following the signs. Follow them with awareness.
However, you do not get to choose your own personal speed limit. This is a terrible idea, obvoiously, for two reasons.
1) People are not very good at choosing their own speed. You may think you deserve a special little snowflake badge that lets you make up your own rules because of how awesome you are, but law does not work like that.
2) A wide variation in speed makes it difficult for everyone else to drive. Consistency really helps.
3) However good or bad you happen to be at any given moment, slower is ALWAYS safer, and faster is ALWAYS more dangerous. Simple physics.
Fast observant driving is safer than slow unobservant driving.
Of course, and you've made that point. However my point is that slow AND observant driving is better still. You don't have to become unobservant when you slow down.
You don't have to become unobservant when you slow down.
Correct. But neither do you have to be slow to be observant and safe. It's this latter point a lot of the terminally offended on here appear to miss.
2) A wide variation in speed makes it difficult for everyone else to drive. Consistency really helps.
So does refusing to overtake a slower vehicle given a good opportunity, but we all have our own crosses to bear, I suppose...
But neither do you have to be slow to be observant and safe. It's this latter point a lot of the terminally offended on here appear to miss.
You don't have to be slow to be observant, but you will always be safer if you are slower. Absolutely ALWAYS. I think you are misinterpreting people's complaints. No-one is saying slower careless driving is better than faster observant driving. You are countering a point that is not being made.
o does refusing to overtake a slower vehicle given a good opportunity,
I never do that, but it'd be better if you leave that particular argument alone. It's a red herring and you are only doing it to try and annoy me, and turn a serious debate into a playground spat. Aren't you?
Depends if you believe following the instructions on speed limit signs makes you slow. The simple fact is exceeding the speed limits makes you unpredictable for others. If by slow you mean 55-60 in a national then you are wrong. If by slow you mean 40 in a national you may have a point.
Somafunk are you sure it was Vatanen's Quattro as he never drove for Audi apart from a demonstration run in Australia. He drove for Ford then Opel then Peugeot.
I never do that, but it'd be better if you leave that particular argument alone. It's a red herring and you are only doing it to try and annoy me, and turn a serious debate into a playground spat. Aren't you?
Which would quite accurately describe the wholly predictable and tedious derailment of the thread from one about a car that clearly several posters have potential interest in purchasing to "fast cars and speed = bad, mmmkay"
Your previous thread about overtaking (or lack thereof) demonstrates quite clearly that you are far from the most qualified to be judging others' driving.
Wow, are we* still referencing mol's overtaking thread in any driving discussion in which he's involved? Jeez, that's, like, I dunno, the most crap internet arguing ever. 😐
* I think I might have done it in the A9 thread mol, and for that I apologise - it must piss you off a bit - at the time it was more mickey taking rather than "I haven't got anything else so BOOM, "...the overtaking thread..."
Which would quite accurately describe the wholly predictable and tedious derailment of the thread from one about a car that clearly several posters have potential interest in purchasing to "fast cars and speed = bad, mmmkay"
I use the term 'playground spat' to describe pointless personal insults and bickering.
I was making a point about road safety. It seemed like it needed to be made, with all this talk about driving fast on windy B roads in very powerful cars.
Your previous thread about overtaking (or lack thereof) demonstrates quite clearly that you are far from the most qualified to be judging others' driving.
Not a bit of it. You all made assumptions about my driving that were totally incorrect, which is why I got so cross. You can't comment on my driving until you actually see it.
I think I might have done it in the A9 thread mol, and for that I apologise
Apprecaited, but there's no need - I understand banter and can take it, sometimes it's funny. It's the actual assumption that I can't drive that irks.
I was making a point about road safety.
Good, please do so on a thread about road safety.
Wow, are we* still referencing mol's overtaking thread in any driving discussion in which he's involved?
He did make quite a thing about it, and he doth protest too much about the insinuation it gave most readers about his driving ability
Jeez, that's, like, I dunno, the most crap internet arguing ever.
Well, apart from trying to sound like an american teenage girl, that is...
Funny thing is Zones that you don't seem to realise you do not get to decide what people discuss and you lack the self awareness to see that you are the one engaging people in off topic discussion here.
I'm in the list of RAC (MSA) national champions, outright, not just class. My main quality as a road driver is that passengers can sleep without being disturbed.
I've driven quite a few quick cars, and turned down offers to drive more because there was nowhere safe to drive them (a Metro 6R4 for example though I was also convinced the cam belt would break on me before we got it out of the garage). Apart from the ones on tyres designed for fuel economy I haven't driven anything made in the last 20 years that didn't have excellent brakes and predictably safe handling. Tyres make more difference than anything IME and yet on Winter tyre threads on here there are always those that dismiss them as unnecessary.
i've got myself a nice set of winter Michelin Pilot Alpins lined up for the S3 come November 🙂
Excellent, Lecht, use them wisely.
And my Freelander runs on Cooper AT3s happily all year 🙂
always use winters up here. handy for getting to Glenshee / Cairngorm, etc.
also why we went with Quattro and the S3 - Rails for skis and bikes, 4WD and it fits into a single garage door entrance easily.
great daily car with 4wd and a bit of poke.
inbred456 : I imagine it was one of Ari's cars from his rally school as it had his sailing boat logo on the bodywork and other livery about it, my mate used to go across a few times each year for various Finnish rallies and to practice on the open stages.
You don't have to be slow to be observant, but you will always be safer if you are slower. Absolutely ALWAYS
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Are you a particularly stupid 12 year old