[Closed] Atomkraft Nein Danke?

Berm Bandit, how many people get relocated every time we build a hydro dam?

And I don't like the term investemnt when applied to renewable energy, investment implies its likely to return a profit. If there was some magic bullet that was going to make wind farms more efficient, or hydro electric defy the laws of thermodynamics we'd have found it by now, they're not complicated technologies.

Which planet are you on? Suggest you lighten up on the drugs fella

tankslapper - Member
Junkyard - Member

The newer plants closest to the epicentre at Onagawa shutdown just fine. But that will be overlooked by the nuclear-haters.

I am not sure why you have used me quoting someone else tbh i did not say

There was a independant nuclear consultant on R4 this a.m. who does work for Greenpeace - HTF can you be 'independant' AND 'do work for Greenpeace'

junkyard - Off course I get the point; but if we truly have no independent view on any aspect of life is that not a dictatorship by another name?

WTF is wrong with this country? Have we had a national stroke or something?!! Not long ago fuel hit 0.80p/litre and people protested now its £1.31p+ and nobody says anything - guess it will be the same for nuclear, working until we're 100 and bleeding our pensions dry.

The people in it are what's wrong with your country if you perceive there's anything wrong that is. You are part of the problem. Apart from posting on here just what are you doing to contribute to change for the better Tankslapper? Some people are reasonably happy with what's happening but are still prepared to do things they feel will lead to positive change.

I'd like to see £5 + per litre because I think it would lead to a better life for my son but I'll live with 1.5e if that's what the market and government dictate. I'm part of the market and I voted for the government.

hmm fuel taxation..... cruel unsophisticated approach at surpressing energy use... inflicting poverty and misery upon many whilst serving the interests of the metropolitain chatering elite...

in other words great if you live in a city.... + full of stupid side effects.... 1st thing to go on most impoverised families budgets is car maintenance.... leading to higher consumption....

Sorry not having a pop at anyone personally.

The company operating the plant has even warned of "re-criticality" - that a nuclear chain reaction could start among fuel rods in the now dry pool.

This is a big problem I am very concerned about.

As for bats... My two posts are unrelated. The tankard remark relates to The Hunters Lodge pub which is my local. All the local cavers have tankards with bats on them.

but if we truly have no independent view on any aspect of life is that not a dictatorship by another name?

Phew, clearly the japanese have got everything under control and its all safe. There was me thinking it might have been a crisis.

Get a grip people. The nuclear industry do not have the safety of nuclear reactors tied down without any liklihood of a massive fail. The evidence is clear and I really can't understand anyone arguing to the contrary.

Get a grip people. The nuclear industry do not have the safety of nuclear reactors tied down without any liklihood of a massive fail.

Do you work in the industry?

The evidence is clear and I really can't understand anyone arguing to the contrary

the evidence is clear? Do show.

the evidence is clear? Do show.

So whats going on in Japan right now after an entirely predictable natural disaster is having saftey tied down? Get Real

[img] [/img]
Let's see what we can find out about that photograph...

This is a duplicate of a Digital Negative taken on a Nikon D2X camera, with a Sigma 50-500mm f/4-6.3EX DG HSM lens, of one of the 42 massive turbines at Blacklaw Wind FarmSouth Lanarkshire, Scotland, which rise to a height of 110 metres to the tip of the blades. [b]The picture was taken from a distance of about 4/5th of a mile from the village centre of Forth[/b] on the B7016 road looking NW.

Oh and it's from an anti-windfarm site called countryguardian.net. So, not photo-shopped, simply done with old-fashioned camera work.

How far away is the moon?
[img] [/img]

Junkyard - Member
but if we truly have no independent view on any aspect of life is that not a dictatorship by another name?

Not sure i get the link between scientists being paid and a dicatorship tbh.
The rest of the post was not really any clearer but I can tell you are cross

The link is in what is an independent and unbiased view? If we continually receive biased opinion rather than a middle ground argument is that not dictatorship?

The biggest joke, if that's what you can call it, is that the people of Japan have had an earthquake and tsunami of unprecedented scale; meanwhile back in Britain its all Ooooooh lets worry about our nuclear industry and ignore a humanitarian crisis! Seriously what are a chances of a earthquake of that magnitude here and by constantly banging on about it the anti-nuclear lobby (of the worst sort) are holding back development to make it safe!

It's either that or we accept the 'sack cloth and ashes' attitudes of the environmental nonces and stop using electricity - period!

There really is some tosh talked about on here! Fummmmmmmmmeeee!

So whats going on in Japan right now after an entirely predictable natural disaster is having saftey tied down?

you seem to be suggesting 40 year old reactor designs are comparable with new build? All the other nuclear plants in Japan are fine - there are over 50 of them just in Japan. There's a very specific sequence of circumstances which has led to the issues at these specific reactors at the moment. If someone wrote a book whereby all these events happened, you really would not believe it.

think you need to get real 😉

And as mentioned above, which appears to have been glossed over by most posters above, no one has yet been seriously affected by the nuclear plant. Over 12,000 people are confirmed dead from the Tsunami, [edit] and nearly half a million homeless [/edit]. Thoughts with the people of Japan at the moment.

[i]It's either that or we accept the 'sack cloth and ashes' attitudes of the environmental nonces and stop using electricity - period![/i]

It's not either or, there are many alternatives including reducing electricty consumption to the point demand can be met with objectively safer renewable sources. It simply requires the political will and more to the point public will. Where there is public will such as in Germany, the proportion of renewables is increasing fast and demand is stagnant (and declining in relation to GDP).

I never said either or; I'm all for alternatives but do you really want windmills from one end of the UK to the other? Nuclear must be part of the solution rather than seen as a problem surely?

Hang on! I've just read your previous post about being happy to see £5/litre!!! I was one of the people who the Government was told to 'go and find work' and now find myself working over 3 hours from home, my wife and kids!!! Seriously what planet are you on?! Do you get home at night?!!!!! Bet you do - bet you could do without a car?!!!

The last time someone was as wrong as you, was when a politician stepped off an aeroplane in 1939 waving a piece of paper in the air saying there will be no war with Germany!

The last time someone was as wrong as you, was when a politician stepped off an aeroplane in 1939 waving a piece of paper in the air saying there will be no war with Germany!

Brilliant, I was going to remind edukator of the many points on which he failed to be edukated on [url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/beginners-guide-to-nuclear-power-stations/page/6 ]here[/url], but that's a much better put down 🙂

If we continually receive biased opinion rather than a middle ground argument is that not dictatorship?

No.

Didn't a dam in the Fukushima prefecture burst on the Friday and wipe out 1800 homes? Easy to ignore though if you are anti nuclear and have an axe to grind.

🙄

you seem to be suggesting 40 year old reactor designs are comparable with new build?

I have no idea how you arrived at that conclusion. What I am suggesting is that throughout my life, (bearing in mind I was born before most were built), I've never heard anything other than how totally safe they are, regardless of their age. The simple fact is that that is complete rubbish, as is clearly being demonstrated currently. Don't give me biggest most unprecendented and so forth, which is also rubbish. The highest recorded Tsunmai is 500 metres FFS!!! Therefore the evidence that is available is very clear. Nuclear power is not a safe option, and you can't now introduce age as a caveat to make that undenaible fact feel somehow nicer.

There's a very specific sequence of circumstances which has led to the issues at these specific reactors at the moment. If someone wrote a book whereby all these events happened, you really would not believe it.

That might well be comforting to you, but its also untrue .... (totally unexpected earthquake in major earthquake zone followed by surprise Tsunami in country that gave the us the name Tsunami shocker!!)

tankslapper - Member

It's either that or we accept the 'sack cloth and ashes' attitudes of the environmental nonces and stop using electricity – period!

Posted 1 hour ago #

tankslapper - Member
I never said either or; I'm all for alternatives but do you really want windmills from one end of the UK to the other? Nuclear must be part of the solution rather than seen as a problem surely?

Posted 41 minutes ago #

😆 (sorry, but that really did make me laugh).

Planet France. I was one of those that took Norman's dad's advice and got on my bike and rode off to France when Margaret was Prime Minister. Having ridden over a 1000km to find work commuting a couple of hours a day by bike was a pleasure.

Have a look at the expats thread, broadening your horizons may allow a lifestyle that doesn't include 3h commuting by car. You seem as frustrated with your life in Britain as I was, time for a change, Tankslapper?

That might well be comforting to you, but its also untrue .... (totally unexpected earthquake in major earthquake zone followed by surprise Tsunami in country that gave the us the name Tsunami shocker!!)

er, that bit you can predict to an extent, although the size of both the earthquake and tsunami may well be greater than expected (this is the biggest earthquake Japan has ever seen don't forget). It's the detail of how all the systems, sub systems & back up/emergency systems all failed in a 40+ year old design which is the events I was referring to.

Edukator - Member

Planet France. I was one of those that took Norman's dad's advice and got on my bike and rode off to France when Margaret was Prime Minister. Having ridden over a 1000km to find work commuting a couple of hours a day by bike was a pleasure.

Have a look at the expats thread, broadening your horizons may allow a lifestyle that doesn't include 3h commuting by car. You seem as frustrated with your life in Britain as I was, time for a change, Tankslapper?

Yes, let's all move to France, it worked for you, so it will for everyone.

Lets also all burn wood as our only source of heating. Now where's all that wood going to come from.

Lets all generate our own electricity, be pious about it, but rely on renewable grid-based energy when it's cloudy / not windy. Hmmm, fine for a few, but where's all that renewable energy going to come from when everyone needs it at the same time.

As I keep trying to edukate you, your little wonderful eco-friendly bubble, whilst highly commendable, simply won't work.

(Oh, and for the record, I happen to know TS's circumstances, and a lesser person would probably have just said '**** it' and gone on the dole)

It's either that or we accept the 'sack cloth and ashes' attitudes of the environmental nonces and stop using electricity - period!

Yeah because there's really no way we could possibly be more efficient in our use of energy is there. 🙄

tankslapper - Member

The last time someone was as wrong as you, was when a politician stepped off an aeroplane in 1939 waving a piece of paper in the air saying there will be no war with Germany!

godwins law?

What would a better person do Zokes?

You are more interested in finding problems than solutions aren't you, Zokes. Even when presented with proof energy can be both saved and produced you just work on inventing problems and impossibilities that simply aren't there.

Everyone needing energy at the same time simply isn't a problem if they've all reduced what they need, adopted stategies to spread their demand and invested in a variety of compementary renewable energy sources on the scale of a continent.

godwins law?

I know you frequently bend truths to suit your arguments on here TJ, but I can't see any direct reference between Edukator and Hitler in that sentence, can you? More the opposite actually...

Anyway, I thought you'd flounced?

You are more interested in finding problems than solutions aren't you, Zokes. Even when presented with proof energy can be both saved and produced you just work on inventing problems and impossibilities that simply aren't there.

Everyone needing energy at the same time simply isn't a problem if they've all reduced what they need, adopted stategies to spread their demand and invested in a variety of compementary renewable energy sources on the scale of a continent.

Please do try to read a little. The problems are the real world - something you appear to be far removed from.

Most of your statements seem to be based around your very laudible lifestyle, which is great, good for you. However:

1) burning biomass for heat will not work on even a local level as there isn't enough biomass.

2) You've still not shown us a single documented figure for the energy repayment on your solar pannels.

3) You still haven't explained how any democratically government will persuade or enforce reductions in electricity usage, especially as gas starts to run out for heating, and petrol starts to run out for cars. Both these scenarios, whilst leading to less use, also point towards electricity bing required to fill some of the gap.

4) You forget that in the real world, most people either don't believe we need to save energy and reduce CO2, or simply don't care. These people will vote out any government that infinges too much on their lifestyle.

IIRC it was designed for an 8.2, the biggest they had ever recorded, so yes, they had predicted the eartquake being in an earthquake zone etc, but that like driving on the motorway and failing to account for a lorry hitting you from behind at 130mph+ (1 magnitued is 7x more energy IIRC? kinetic energy ~ speed squared) becasue you thought it was doing 56.

That dam burst killing 1800 yet you propose that as the solution (so far the reactor has killed no one).

In the last 10 years nuclear has killed 7 people, wind farms have killed 44, I've no idea how much more energy nuclear has produced in the meantime!

so if germany are shutting down their power staions now

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12745899 ]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12745899[/url]

where will their electricity come from??

are they just loading up the coal fired ones, they must ahve a fair bit of spare capacity

[url= http://www.batienergy.fr/le-solaire-comment-ca-marche/bilan-energetique ]The first Google result gives 2- 4 years in britany and 35 years life.[/url]

The year to year and half figure for the latest panels (or more pecisely .9 to 1.6 years IIRC) came from a history of solar panel development from the 70s to date.

People don't need persuading they just need convincing. Once convinced they'll do their bit. At present they get too many mixed messages. A clear message that they can save money by saving energy is all most people will need. Some people will no doubt try to sabotage efforts in a cut of their nose to spite their face manner but most people want a happy, healthy, comfortable life..

People don't need persuading they just need convincing. Once convinced they'll do their bit. At present they get too many mixed messages. A clear message that they can save money by saving energy is all most people will need.

I really do like the sound of the bubble you live in, don't get me wrong, but that's not a view of the public of the UK or Australia that I recognise (in terms of your suggested cuts). Sure, they'll do a bit, like doing some recycling or maybe unplugging a phone charger, but 75% cuts??? (Again, you make no suggestion as to how they will source energy for heat or transport)

Seriously, just google for the drop in ratings Gillard took as soon as she mentioned the possibility of a 'Carbon Tax' over here. (And she didn't give it the tax moniker, the media helped her with that one)

Going back to the late 70s and early 80s there was a project in Germany to build a nuclear power station on the Rhine near Freiburg. The locals protested claiming they didn't need it and would commit to alternative energy and energy saving. The result was [url= http://www.solarregion.freiburg.de/solarregion/freiburg_solar_city.php ]Solar City Freiburg[/url].

I've visited the area and my own efforts were inspired by what the locals and my friends in the Neckar region were doing. Whole villages have become energy independant or produce a surplus. I'm convince the whole of Europe can do the same and that we don't need nuclear or fossil fuel electrical power.

I find this "bubble" accusation unfair. I'm the one prepared to attend a conference in Stuttgart, I'm the one that corresponds with and visits people working on alternative energy solutions in other countries. It's not a bubble, it's a lot of open minded people doing their best for a better future.

It's not a bubble, it's a lot of open minded people doing their best for a better future.

That's good providing you're open minded about nuclear as well. How big would the solar & wind farms be to power some of the larger cities in the world, plus all the transport and infrastructure behind them? Most self-sufficiency areas are just micro in comparison I expect.

it's a lot of open minded people doing their best for a better future.

I'm sure it is, but could you deifine 'a lot' in terms of a global population of nearly 7bn?

(I should resist this one too really, but how, per chance, were you travelling to all these meetings in far flung countries? Just wondering, as I don't think they've mastered solar-powered flight on a commercial scale yet)

Well in the case of Germany it would require about five times the area currently covered by wind farms and solar panels. Given the uncovered roof area for solar panels and windy areas that is entirely feasable. Efficiency increases mean less area will be needed.

I haven't suggested a carbon tax, I've sugested tax reductions on renewables to encourage their use. My first step as European president would be a zero VAT rate on all insulating materials, energy saving investments and alternative energy investments. Who is going to compalin about that?

Who is going to compalin about that?

Nobody much I suspect. But unless you start applying some cost to CO2 emissions, people will just turn to coal when oil and gas become more scarce, which will be a lot cheaper than discounted green energy. If you do apply some cost to emissions, energy prices will increase compared to where they are now, which will probably mean most of the electorate won't want you as president much longer.

Working out what should be done is easy. Considering human nature and the economics of modern day life, and applying it. Well, perhaps you should run for president if you think you can pull it off...

(Seeing as you ignored my point about the questionable practice of flying for environmental reasons, perhaps you could use Skype next time instead)

By bicycle and train when I travel independantly. Stuttgart was by tramway and train. I own a car and I use it, between us my wife and I get through about 500l of petrol/diesel a year. I buy stuff in Lidl and have a big Samsung TV. I ski (my son even uses lifts though I rarely do so) and have a carbon footprint that means it would require 1.6 planets to sustain my lifestyle if everyone lived the same way, though everyone in france could live the same way sustaibably (WWF calculator). I not sugesting people live in a cave, I'm suggesting they live sustainably.

Edit: I last flew in 1999. I don't think flying should be banned, simply that people should use less polluting forms of transport where they exist.

On the biomass question raised above, the wood I burn comes from gardens. I know that wood is not a suitable fuel in city centres and that there isn't enough for everybody. It's just part of the renewable energy mix that is valid in an area where the area covered by woodland has been steadily increasing for over 100 years.

(so far the reactor has killed no one).

That is neither correct, nor particualrly relavant. This incident is still progressing and the actual final death toll will not be known for decades if ever.

In the last 10 years nuclear has killed 7 people, wind farms have killed 44, I've no idea how much more energy nuclear has produced in the meantime!

You can select statistics to suit your argument for as long as you like. Try these: Directly due to Chernobyl 300,000 people have had to relocate, there are estimated to be somewhere between 30 and 60,000 additional deaths due to thyroid cancer as a direct result. 24 years on restrictions remain in place in much of Europe due to high radiation levels. approx 800,000 people were involved in the cleanup no effective records have been kept of the impact on them.

Now find me a busted dam with similar issues which are still unravelling!

Edukator - the bottom line is the 'sustainable living argument' is simply a load of tosh postulated by capitalist governments world wide who rely solely on an ever increasing population to increase GDP. You've therefore fallen into the trap that we can keep on breeding and everything is fine - 1.6 planets my **s*!

there are estimated to be somewhere between 30 and 60,000 additional deaths due to thyroid cancer as a direct result

According to the WHO - Bullshit!

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs303/en/index.html

I understood that the largest effected group after Chernobyl was children due mainly to the Russian authorities not checking food (at all) or administering iodide tablets.

At its worst the Fukishima incident should not get anywhere near these levels.

The fact here guys is that the other Nuclear facilities in Japan have been in the main O.K. including Fukishima II whilst other power alternatives have suffered -

The facts are

'In the U.S. alone, fossil fuel waste kills 20,000 people each year.[22] A coal power plant releases 100 times as much radiation as a nuclear power plant of the same wattage.[23] It is estimated that during 1982, US coal burning released 155 times as much radioactivity into the atmosphere as the Three Mile Island accident.[24]'

No matter what cave man says.......

Nuclear power is not a safe option

Directly due to Chernobyl 300,000 people have had to relocate

If you check out other threads I've contributed to, Tankslapper, you'll find I'm in favour of contraception, small families and consider population the root of most environmental issues. My solutions don't include genocide though.

Go on to the WWF carbon footprint calculator and feed in the figures I've given you for my lifestyle, you'll find it corresponds to 1.6 planets. Do it for yourself too, I'd be interested in the result. When my wife did it with a class of French school kids the result was usually around 4.

Sustainability is a theme in the manifestos of capitalist, socialist and communist governments the world over. Greens often form coalitions with socialists which is a pity as socialists and their jobs-for-all capitalist retoric don't have the monopoly of green policies. If you look at France and Germany it's centre right governments that have done the most to stimulate investment in renewable energy sources.