[Closed] Atheists/Agnostics/Sceptics - Religious questions you want answered

I'm ok with the why, it's the how I'm more interested in.
😀

Thanks also to the mods, who I presume have at the very least had a word or two with the main protagonists and as such have enabled an environment for more reasoned discussion.

I appreciate the thanks, but it's without justification. Aside from the suspension of blatant trolls and the professionally offensive, we've not intervened beyond public warnings. Maybe we've grown as a forum. If I've personally had anything to do with that then it's been in public rather than via the hammer.

Without faith and with scientific evidence at hand, death is truly scary.

It's really not. And the older I get, and the nearer death gets, the less I worry about it. I went to a Catholic funeral recently, and it seemed to me that the whole religion was based on a fear of death.

So, another question for the OP: Why are you so frightened of dying?

Could you tell me what's spiritual about it?

Well this bloke called Jesus had a mate called Yaakov and they did some interesting stuff that people wrote about. The writings ended up in a books that lots of people read. Anyhow after Jesus got crucified for all the good he was doing, Yaakov saw his resurected mate and decided to carry on with the do-gooding, some people reckon he visited Spain just over the hill from where we live. He went back home though and got killed by the same lot as had crucified Jesus but as he wasn't from the same genetic stock as Jesus he stayed dead. He was quite popular though, even dead, so some people reckon his followers took his body all the way back to Spain and buried him.

He still has followers today, such as that idiot walking and they go on long walks in the spirit of Yaakov's travels and this is good for their own spirits.

Some people aren't very good at this spirtual stuff, I'm a real klutz, many geologists like me are, though some see studying geology as studying the work of Jesus's dad and one geologist friend now has a job in spirituality a bit like Yaakov.

Anyhow, in things spirituality that track in the photo is one of the go-to places, a bit like Mecca or Jurusalem. The problem is that it's quite long, well as long as you live from the end which is quite short if you live there but for the rest of us quite long (in fact people who live there often go a long away then walk back so they don't miss out on walking to the end). You might find a dirt track a bit basic compared with Notre Dame de Paris, but if your brain has any capacity at all for things spiritual then you'll find out.

I'm still a klutz at this spirituality lark despite months of walking along that track, a spiritually enlightened agnostic klutz, an improving klutz though. And I smile when people refer to me as a pèlerin, peregrino, pilger, pilgrim etc., don't laugh, you might be happy to be called a pilgrim one day. ULTREIA ! SUSEIA !

The will to extend oneself for the benefit of ones own and another's personal growth.

Interesting. I wonder how common that definition is?

Do you believe that there is anything that isn't part of 'the physical realm'?

No. As a physicist, the physical world is defined as everything. So if it exists anywhere, it's physical. For me, describing emotions, personalities etc as chemical interactions does not diminish it at all. There is immense beauty in the workings of a complex machine, and our brains are beautifully complex.

Rusty Spanner - Member
I'm ok with the why, it's the how I'm more interested in.

Okay, as we're all still feeling the love ( apart from jimjam, but we love him anyway), I'll disclose how I reconcile my belief...

Which, IIRC, came about from various sources, one being that once I realised that I make my own world, mainly through my intent and attitude - or put simply, smile at the world and the world smiles back - and took responsibility for doing so.

Another realisation was that we all experience the world and thereby the Universe in our own way and all different, so which one is true? Two people can go bikepacking for a weekend and ask each of them to recount their trip and guaranteed there will be differences and variations in the two. Both of which are equally valid and true.

In quantum physics, it has long been noted that the observer changes the reality, which for me also means that how I experience my existence in the Universe and what I hold to be true, will be true for me and so long as I maintain my intent and attitude, then I am also free to define my own Universe from what I see and experience. Other people will experience their existence and interpret it it their way, which is still true for them, so I do not expect them to share my belief and I choose not to share theirs, but both are valid and true.

So, as I said before, be free and give yourself permission to make your own world and take responsibility for your experience, it's your truth! Furthermore, we are very very fortunate to exist as a human being, where we have the intellect and a range of complex emotions that enable us to do so.

I agree with the pair of you, but I don't see anything spiritual in your posts directly above.
🙂

That is basically the same conclusion at which I arrived.

Without faith and with scientific evidence at hand, death is truly scary.

Nah, it's not. As a wise man once said, "when you dead, you dead".

The time after your death is no different, to you, than the time before you were born.

Edukator - Reformed Troll
Well this bloke called Jesus had a mate called Yaakov....

I do enjoy a nice pilgrimage.

Have fun.
🙂

Thanks for that, Slackalice.

Rusty Spanner - Member
I agree with the pair of you, but I don't see anything spiritual in your posts directly above.

Probably not, but your question was 'how do you reconcile...'

But then again, I'm finding keeping up with your sneak edits and responses is keeping me on my toes! 😉

molgrips - Member
The will to extend oneself for the benefit of ones own and another's personal growth.

Interesting. I wonder how common that definition is?

Very for those that have read A Road Less Travelled.

Cheers cougar. HTH

Probably not, but your question was 'how do you reconcile...'

My question was how do WE reconcile....me included.
I'm not being judgemental, I'm just interested.

But then again, I'm finding keeping up with your sneak edits and responses is keeping me on my toes!

Sorry.
It's not malicious or sneaky.
I'm just attempting to clarify and remove as much ambiguity as possible.
Let me know if there's anything I've changed that you'd like me to explain.

Have we all listens to Prof Brian Cox chatting to Russell Brand?

https://www.russellbrand.com/podcast/ep-43-professor-brian-cox-god-universe-meaning/#main

You could always start your own religion?

No, not at all RS.

Rusty Spanner - Member

My question was how do WE reconcile....me included.
I'm not being judgemental, I'm just interested.

You are free to make up your own reconciliation, so long as it is true for you. We each of us make our own reality, if we allow ourselves to and our intent is good.

As for your other question, now gone, concerning where is the spirituality in all of that... For me, refer back to my definition of Love. See also me being responsible for my experience/reality, my truth and in fact my post. If I want to make my reality one where I believe I have lives between lives, that my soul is a journey and this existence is part of that, with lessons to learn, karma to experience and that belief makes me a happier, more content, loving and compassionate person, then I give myself every right to do so.

Going out on a limb here, before I retire the day, I'll share my definition of what some people refer to as God, which I consider to be another aspect of spirituality. I believe in the Universe because I am very much a part and product of it, but why is it here? Why does it exist? My belief is that it does so because it has a will to exist and, by default, so does everything within the Universe because it wills it so, just as it is. If the Universe didn't have the will to exist, it wouldn't be here. This 'will' by the way is not our common interpretation of a conscious thought from a sentient thing, it is the ethereal will to give and there's an infinite amount of it. This is my higher power/God, whatever and however others may term it.

Of course, you are free to find your own and it/they will be valid and true for you 😆

EDIT: thanks miketually, saved for listening to tomorrow.

I think the universe is a part of something else. But what? It's impossible to say. Possibly un-knowable.

Flatland is a good book for getting in touch with the unknowable, and then another book called Flatterland written about the original.

If the Universe is infinite and/or there is an infinite number of Multiverses does that mean there must be an infinite number of Gods ?

Without faith and with scientific evidence at hand, death is truly scary.

I have seen hundreds of people die ( its my job to look after dying people). I have seen no difference in attitudes to dying from religious or non religious.

Without faith and with scientific evidence at hand, death is truly scary.

I am not scared of dying and having watched my father die was not scared at that time either (if was obviously a horrible experience but I didn't feel scared at any time)

You are free to make up your own reconciliation, so long as it is true for you

Exactly. Some go to a religion for that others go to science, I just don't find myself needing an answer.

So are we going to get answers or is this thread just for the usuals agreeing with each other?

centralscrutinizer - Member
If the Universe is infinite and/or there is an infinite number of Multiverses does that mean there must be an infinite number of Gods ?

If you believe in a god, it exists as a construct.
So yes.
🙂
An infinite number of beings all defining their own god.
Plus all us heathens, of course.

So are we going to get answers or is this thread just for the usuals agreeing with each other?

Pretty sure apologetics (if that's what this is, not entirely sure?) takes some time. Especially with so many diverse questions.

wilburt - Member

So are we going to get answers or is this thread just for the usuals agreeing with each other?

If we buy the book. Obvs 😉

But how do you know the book contains the right answers?

The book will contain SR's opinion.
Your own opinion on this topic is equally valid.

But how do you know the book contains the right answers?

I would expect the book, being written by a scholar, to contain many opinions resulting from different lines of thought. And, given its inception, a lot of historical facts and facts about church doctrine. Because a lot of contributors to the usual religious arguments are categorically wrong on certain facts about history or the church.

I hope it does anyway 🙂

🙂

Theology and history are fascinating topics and I look forward to reading the book.

However an expert in historical theology has no more valid opinion on the existence of God than anyone else.

I think the OP has moved on and is currently collating material for his next book on the history of console gaming 😉

However an expert in historical theology has no more valid opinion on the existence of God than anyone else.

🙂
Not at all.

If we discount a physical God, then we have a study of the nature and history of belief itself.

tjagain - Member
I have seen hundreds of people die ( its my job to look after dying people). I have seen no difference in attitudes to dying from religious or non religious.

Interesting, how would you describe the common attitudes you observed?

In 1907, an American physician, Dr MacDougall believed humans had a soul and attempted to observe the moment when a soul parts from the physical body. Apparently, he set up an elaborate sensitive beam weight bed scale, upon which a number of patients with terminal illnesses were placed and observed before, during and after their passing. He noted each time at the moment of death, there was an observable weight loss of less than an ounce (21 grams in today's money).

Apparently, for comparison, he did the same approach with dogs, where he observed no measurable weight loss, he also tested for loss of air with exhalation of a full lungs breath, which yielded the same no weight loss result.

AFAIK, there have been no further studies on this, apart from a very good film with Benicio Del Toro I think it was.

Since the definition of a soul is that it is spiritual/non-material, it does not have a physical weight to be observed.
This is the general problem with materialistic approaches to the spiritual world, they are the wrong set of tools; they will tell you about the natural world, but not about the spiritual world.
In my experience the easiest way to access the spiritual world is to try and do something creative, like write a poem.

This is the general problem with materialistic approaches to the spiritual world, they are the wrong set of tools

If it exists, it's physical, by definition. We may not be trying the right observations. MacDougall assumed it had mass, but now we know not everything observable has mass.

However an expert in historical theology has no more valid opinion on the existence of God than anyone else.

Does theology attempt to determine the existence of God?

I didn't say it did.
🙂

If it exists, it's physical, by definition.

Excellent.
Can I have half a pound of anger please?

In all seriousness, Clarke's third law applies:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

My understanding is that theology assumes the existence of God and tries to divine its nature, but I may be off the mark with my understanding having not studied theology in its academic sense.

Can I have half a pound of anger please?

No, but you can have a few microgrammes of acetylcholine, see how that works for you...

😀
I agree with you, btw.

I've always found that chemicals that end with an'ine' to be rather good fun 😉

Does theology attempt to determine the existence of God?

* http://www.iep.utm.edu/ont-arg/
This seems to cover the main ones but only skimmed it

** a weak argument as either god chose morals on a whim or there is a real reason why they are good which anyone can see - Adam said this iirc been a long time

NB i only did it in relation to Christianity and am no expert - please dont overstate my expertise here its quite limited

Are the big atheist beasts on holiday?

Can I have half a pound of anger please?

Anger weighs about the same as electricity. Which is magic, admittedly, so not a fair comparison 😉

Magnetism, OTOH, weighs considerably more than either aching grief or mild elation.

[quote=badnewz ]Are the big atheist beasts on holiday?

unlike the shitty sideline snipers

It's really not. And the older I get, and the nearer death gets, the less I worry about it.

In 1907, an American physician, Dr MacDougall believed humans had a soul and attempted to observe the moment when a soul parts from the physical body...
...AIK, there have been no further studies on this

unlike the shitty sideline snipers

Over-reaction?

I am not very interested but rudeness begets rudeness and I fear you will look everywhere but yourself for the cause.

Been a good thread Have a nice day

The rudeness was entirely on your side by calling me shitty. I made a tongue-in-cheek joke about how chilled the thread was.
You'd never say that to someone in real life, I bet.

Aquinas' Philisophical Theology sought to explain the nature of God, again from a Christian viewpoint. The mild issue I have with this tome (having skim read an academic summary, so may have got the wrong end of the stick), is his starting point that God exists in the first place, which is where I understand JY was referring to.

I can't find any evidence of peer review to MacDougall's research, but as molgrips said earlier, our understanding of observing mass has moved on somewhat since 1907

FWIW, my core belief is that the true nature of God lies within each of us, we are our own God's. Through appropriate intent and attitude, we can shape our own reality. Okay, there's tragedy and trauma occurring throughout the world and on a bigger scale, throughout our known Universe. Events that we cannot control, because they are outside a persons sphere of influence.

All that we can control is within us, our own sphere of influence and how we choose to react to stuff and take responsibility for our reactions. The God within if you like.

Badnewz - is this a new acquaintance you’ve made? You will get used to it....

FWIW, my core belief is that the true nature of God lies within each of us

Agreed and yet instead of looking for internal answers, so many prefer to waste their time looking for external truth and verification.

@slackalice, do you practice yoga out of interest (I've not read the whole thread). Over the past 10 years I've tried pretty much everthing (atheism, Christianity, and more recently buddhism via yoga).
Undoubtedly the practices of Yoga are very effective, and the people who subscribe to them in my experience live healthier, happier lives than the Christians I know. Some of the local Christian churches where I live are now running yoga classes.

Good call slackalice. Very much how I veiw things.

I think the thread has gone off in a strange direction. The OP, I thought, was asking for questions to answer to do with religion - whereas the thread is talking a lot about what god is.

I don’t really link the two. The very existence of the universe suggests something created it, there could be a creator I suppose, don’t really see how anyone can argue strongly either way that something conscious [i]could[/i] be behind it, somehow.

Religion on the other hand, is about the most bizarre thing I’ve ever been part of.

I’ve got a great friend who’s a veggie and a RC. She believes it all, Old and New, including literal understanding of the Eucharist and transubstantiation. [cheapshot] Veggie Monday to Saturday, cannibal on a Sunday.[/cheapshot]

She’s got a PhD, yet simply won’t entertain any discussion that she may be wrong... I respect her choices, but can’t understand how she refuses to question it - that shouldn’t be a contradiction. Faith, she’ll say.

Blind faith, on any level is not healthy for those who seek to experience life, IMHO of course.

I don't practice yoga, it is however something I feel I would benefit from as flexibility in mind and body leads to health and happiness 🙂

iamtheresurrection - Member
I think the thread has gone off in a strange direction. The OP, I thought, was asking for questions to answer to do with religion - whereas the thread is talking a lot about what god is.

I don't think it strange, I see the original OP as being the catalyst for discussion, especially as one of the recurring questions were asking about the existence of and nature of God.

I agree with your sentiments on religion per se, I view them as doctrines and as was mentioned before, they have since been corrupted to enable personal power, greed and control, which is, again IMHO, not the best attitude and intent that we are capable of.

Over the past 10 years I've tried pretty much everthing (atheism, Christianity, and more recently buddhism via yoga).

I must admit, I've never consciously 'tried' atheism. Although I'm atheistic/agnostic - I never viewed this state as a comparative religion or philosophy that I could maybe try out?

I'm about 45 minutes into the Brand/Cox podcast.

Prof Cox has superhuman levels of patience. Brand struggles with GCSE level physics.

I must admit, I've never consciously 'tried' atheism. Although I'm atheistic/agnostic - I never viewed this state as a comparative religion or philosophy that I could maybe try out?

In terms of practising Atheism in my case, it mean't challenging and arguing with people of faith. I was quite the New Atheist. The problem is I soon ran out of people to argue with as there aren't many people of faith around these days where I live.
And also not praying at funerals:-

On further reflection as to how this thread has developed from its original request, is that the nature of it asking for questions, without the resultant need for immediate answers has managed to temper the usual obvious statements that these threads tend to go down.

Which is why I'm enjoying engaging in this one and refuse to engage with the previous threads on this subject.

but can’t understand how she refuses to question it

I can. Ever have a question to which you don't actually want to know the answer?

I can. Ever have a question to which you don't actually want to know the answer?

That's why I've not weighed myself for three years.

molgrips - Member
but can’t understand how she refuses to question it
I can. Ever have a question to which you don't actually want to know the answer?

I’m sure the answer must be yes, at least for a snapshot in time. Not sure it’s yes on any issue for a long time though.

I’d understand if that was the only thing underpinning her faith, but it’s any question which could be asked on any topic.

I understand the point your insinuating, but I don’t think she’s frightened to lose her faith. I don’t think...

The Brand/Cox interview is on YouTube now:

badnewz - Member
I can. Ever have a question to which you don't actually want to know the answer?
That's why I've not weighed myself for three years.

😆

miketually, did it get better than the first 45mins?

Fides quaerens intellectum.

"I do not seek to understand in order that I may believe, but rather, I believe in order that I may understand"

"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof must one be silent."

SR your comments please?

I'm late to the party but do have one question I'd love answered.

Genesis and the creation story is provably false as is the Garden of Eden etc. Taking this to be proven, why was Jesus killed to absolve people of sins first brought into the world when Eve ate the fruit.

My second question but with a much more debatable answer is, if Christians get to pick and choose which parts of the bible to take literally, which to disregard and which to take as gospel (pun intended), where is the difference with being completely agnostic, anti-theist etc? If I'm given 1,000 contrasting laws to live by and I get to choose which are important, I'm no different to a theist who does the same with their book. The important difference is that I've chosen to live according to certain self-imposed principles and I don't have any of the drawbacks of religion.

miketually, did it get better than the first 45mins?

I wanted to shout "Parklife!" every time Brand stopped talking...

Thesis anti-thesis synthesis. Consciousness is the construct out of which arises material substance.

Parklife!

I get up on a Sunday, with a feeling of intense frustration, and post to the singletrack forum. It gives me a sense of release and satisfaction.
Parklife!

Badnewz - is this a new acquaintance you’ve made? You will get used to it..

Your ability to not do what you preach even enters the spiritual realm so at least no one can accuse you of not being consistent

I was referring to myself there btw

I think we knew

FWIW I also enjoy yoga and meditation

Not that I think that i will get to nirvana or escape the circle of life as i dont believe in such things and clearly i have someway to go to achieve zen like levels of chillness
PARKLIFE

Not that I think that i will get to nirvana

You've been to Burnley.
I imagine it's a pretty much the same.
🙂

Has anyone got a copy of that podcast with RB replaced by the sound of fingernails on a blackboard?

slackalice "In quantum physics, it has long been noted that the observer changes the reality" which is fine is this observed universe but in the concept of multiple universe/dimensions the "I" is irrelevant.

wearheredwannabe 😀

Are the big atheist beasts on holiday?

If it makes you happy though I’m in 100%

slackalice - Member

tjagain - Member
I have seen hundreds of people die ( its my job to look after dying people). I have seen no difference in attitudes to dying from religious or non religious.

Interesting, how would you describe the common attitudes you observed?

I don't think there is any common attitudes amongst the dying. some go peacefully and content. some go raging and angry, some happy to be meeting with their loved ones again in some other place some its just a light going out. some want to fight to the end and some want to slip away quietly and some can't wait for it all to end. I haven't seen any trends between the religious and the non religious that would single out belief as a significant factor in how good a death you have

some of the worst deaths I have seen have been religious folk because their religious attitudes stop them having the best palliative care / makes them continue with futile treatment leaving them to take longer to die uncomfortable and unhappy. The two I can think of in that light were muslim tho who seem to be more against stopping futile treatment than anyone else. But I have also seen non religious fight to the end and suffer unnecessarily. thats their choice and one I must and do respect. Its not my views that count - its the views of the person dying.

For the religious I often refer them to their spiritual advisor and often its a comfort to them but occasionally it has the opposite effect.

so for the individual religion can be a comfort to them when they are dying but from what I have seen it makes no real difference across many folk whether yo are religious or not. Good symptom control, their own attitudes, attitudes towards treatment especially futile treatment etc make a huge difference.

I have seen religious folk refuse a DNACPR statement ( Do Not Attempt Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation) Which means they die with someone jumping on their chest and shoving tubes down their throat rather than floating away on some nice drugs. But I have also seen non religious folk do this. Dying under cpr is never a good death

What really makes me very angry and probably part of the reason I am so anti religion in general ( but not for an individual who wants that spiritual support) Is that interference in the political sphere from those professing religion prevent me from ensuring good deaths for some - and yes there is such a thing as a good death. "peaceful, dignified, pain free and with your loved ones around you"

A good death is something I believe to be a human right. I will do my very best to enure goofd deaths for those in my care. I will do my very best to die at a time and place of my choosing

Well you did ask 😉 Its something I am very passionate about. someone died in my care today so its a bit raw given I did not get it quite right in this case

Nope, religion is just a sideshow. They probs cant be arsed with your dudgeons and dragons poo haa.
If it makes you happy though I’m in 100%

I know guys on crack speak more sense than you!

Slackalice / anyone else interested I have a lot more I can add around the discussion of dying and how religion impacts upon it but perhaps not appropriate to this thread. If anyone wants to hear it ask me / start a thread

I'm lumbered with being an agnostic, dyslexic, insomniac. I lay awake at night wondering if there really is a Dog.

I've felt lost amongst a relatively small number of people here on earth, how will I feel in Heaven amongst an infinite crowd?