but that's clearly not a religious conflict
NI ...
Religion is simply the vehicle for conflict, a convenient one at that.
Like calling an uber taxi convenient.
7% of modern conflicts (roughly) are directly attributable to religious conflict
is responsible for the majority of historical conflicts and a vast majority of modern suffering,
??? 7% not that big, not backing yourself up that well.
No, for good people to do bad things you just need to convince them of a group identity and a common enemy.
Indeed. Which is my point. You can use religion for that if you like, doesn't mean religion is the actual cause.
molgripsIndeed. Which is my point. You can use religion for that if you like, doesn't mean religion is the actual cause.
When it comes to motivating or justifying the murder or your enemies "god commands us to do it" is about as good as it gets though. The leaders and the led don't have to be on the same page.
Maybe, maybe not. But not sure it matters much.
Anyway. See all that beautiful art, architecture and music that was mentioned above? The fact that the creators felt moved enough to make religion the subject of their creativity suggests they felt it was a strong positive in their lives, don't you think?
Cougar - Moderator
Science and Christianity( In fact all the monotheistic religions IIRC) are completely incompatible with science
Is that a typo? Science is incompatible with science?
Yup makes a bit more sense if you remove the first "science"
Christianity is completely incompatible with science cos...............
If there really is a god surely he would smite anyone who started yet another STW religion thread....
IMO organised religion is a tool for suppressing the masses
Why have dinosaurs roam the Earth for 150 million years, to then wipe them out many millions of years before man arrives on the scene? Then for humans to only be on the Earth for a few thousand?(according to the Bible).
Why not? How should I know?
If there were a God, why would we expect to know what the **** he was up to?
molgrips - MemberMaybe, maybe not. But not sure it matters much.
Anyway. See all that beautiful art, architecture and music that was mentioned above? The fact that the creators felt moved enough to make religion the subject of their creativity suggests they felt it was a strong positive in their lives, don't you think?
That's a different thread. But since you ask no, not really. I don't think religious piety or rapture is a fertile ground for art and creativity. Self expression and patronage is though. There is a considerable body of opinion that suggests many of the great renaissance masters were gay. Most famously Michelangelo. It's often speculated that his works are homoerotic and/or feature a gay subtext very much in rebellion against the Catholic churches' patronage.
What say you?
gauss1777 - MemberWhy have dinosaurs roam the Earth for 150 million years, to then wipe them out many millions of years before man arrives on the scene? Then for humans to only be on the Earth for a few thousand?(according to the Bible).
according to the bible the earth is 6000 years old. ~According to creationist fossil record is there to confuse us.
Jiumjam - why does the statue of David have such a small willy then?
Cos he's bloody cold.
I've not studied enough art to be able to comment in any way. I was simply extrapolating from what I can see. I don't think that the faith is responsible for the art - but they could have drawn all sorts of things, but there are so many pictures of religious scenes and so much music. I know there was a lot of patronage and things being 'the done thing' but the point I am trying to make is that a lot of people throughout history were made happy by their faith. And still are. They don't tend to make headlines though.
according to the bible the earth is 6000 years old.
Umm.. nooo.. not quite.
There's a creation parable, then a genealogy, then someone added it all up to get 6,000 years. He is not believed by that many people. Including the Pope.
I expect some of you are going to tell the Pope how he doesn't understand Christianity now, aren't you?
IMO organised religion is a tool for suppressing the masses
They were clever those early Christians.Despite being discriminated against,suppressed,tortured,burnt alive,crucified,butchered in the amphitheatres for public entertainment and murdered in their thousands throughout the Roman empire in the first couple of centuries AD they were clearly playing the long game 😉
Yes. People dying for their beliefs carried on much longer than that.
Some people's faith meant so much to them they would rather die horribly than recant. Of course, outside of conflicts many other people went about their lives peacefully with the same kind of faith. All those people carrying around something that powerful and meaningful. And you lot dismiss it as stupidity.
I'm not religious but I try to understand it and what it means to people.
Nick - I said organised religion not Christianity. Romans had their own religion they used to control people.
Is it not a little disingenuous to give the gift of life, and then demand thanks for it every day in return?
If I’d given such an awesome gift, I’d rather you each spent it doing great things, not thanking me every five minutes but then asking me for more with every prayer.
How much did Pope Alexander VI pay for his 50 prostitutes to celebrate the festival of the saints. Did God consider it money well spent from the purse?
Was God really okay with Lot’s daughters getting him drunk and raping him after destroying Sodom?
Jesus, the list really is endless.
Edit. Sorry. When Jesus performed the miracle which cursed the fig tree for having no fruit, even though it was out of season, was God embarrassed by his son’s petulance and abuse of power in killing the tree? I’d have Jesus on the naughty step for that one...
I said organised religion not Christianity. Romans had their own religion they used to control people.
Whut
The primary cause ( note the word: primary) for conflict amongst humans is the lust for power and greed, very much a human condition/ construct. Religion has been used as an excuse. There are many examples, I'll proffer the Mongol expansion throughout Asia, Eurasia and Europe as one as it was pretty horrific. As far as historians understand, their primary motive was to secure trade rights.
I do wonder if the most zealous atheist posters here are in some ways rather like the shouty homophobes one encounters, in so far as their fear of being actually what they publicly despise helps with their self denial? I'll put a wink in here, just because I can. 😉
And for those who choose to live their lives on a binary yes/no, proven fact or not basis, wow! Each to their own, but I like the grey areas, the unknowns, the hypothesis, the looking into the night sky and knowing that the observer changes the reality and that really, we know **** all.
I'll return to this thread this evening, it might have been closed by then, so a gentle reminder for those that probably won't read ( or understand) this bit, that dogmatism isn't a virtue, there's no need to be a pillock about it.
If only the world was quite so organised. That's just another form of imagining that there is someone somewhere who actually knows what's going onIMO organised religion is a tool for suppressing the masses
slackalice - Member
The primary cause ( note the word: primary) for conflict amongst humans is the lust for power and greed, very much a human condition/ construct. Religion has been used as an excuse.
Religion and God are themselves human constructs.
I haven't left for work yet! Of course they are, your point being?
^ morning SaxonRider. Reading my post back, without gin brain, I sound like a bit of a ******. Sorry.
EDIT (again). Especially with my username, which is a Stone Roses reference, not some poke at something else 😉
How do you really know there is a god and how do you really know the religion you have chosen to follow is the right one.
(You are not allowed to use the cop outs of "faith" or "because someone else told me")
that dogmatism isn't a virtue, there's no need to be a pillock about it
+1, well put.
By the way, to anyone who likes these kinds of discussions - pretty sure we could arrange a bike ride and get SaxonRider out too. Plenty to discuss 🙂
You are not allowed to use the cop outs of "faith"
Is it a cop out? Surely that's the point? That you don't know, but you believe? Not really qualified to answer that though to be honest. I think this is where people draw an analogy with science. We don't KNOW much about the nature of reality through science - we are simply trusting the interpretations of scientists and their measurements. Which is a sort of faith, if derived differently.
A question that can be asked both of the religious and to yourself.
Do you fear death?
Obviously most people do, but by how much and are you worried about what happens or doesn't happen "after"?
This is something that makes me appreciate people with a lot of faith, in that they can be content with death, knowing to themselves it is not the end. Regardless of whether it is.
Without faith and with scientific evidence at hand, death is truly scary.
ie one of the reasons for religion is to provide comfort in the face of the unknown. It may be bollocks stuff, but I'm happy for those who are happy with their faith.
of course [s]knowing [/s]hoping/wishing you dont die and that you get to meet all your loved ones and go to a place that is perfect is far more comforting than thinking you just die and its over
That is no reason to lie to yourself and think that is what will happen
You die and life goes on without you.
I only have the one really (last 10seconds). More of a request:
Do you fear death?
Not a single bit, no. My wife is well catered for when I die and that is all I need to know.
did i spent many a sunday morning receiving biblical instruction because it would one day save my soul or were my parents just at it like rabbits?
Does your God hang out with the other Gods?
So, do we have a summarised list of questions yet?
Do you fear death?Not a single bit, no. My wife is well catered for when I die and that is all I need to know.
D'you know, it makes me very sad to think of it, whether I go first or Mrs Pondo does - just to think I'm leaving her alone, or she me. I have sad dreams about it sometimes. 🙁
I'm an atheist but I really enjoyed American Gods on Amazon - so I've been thinking - how do you choose a god to believe in? Which one is best? Or is is just a 'gut' feel thing?
I guess I'm trying to figure out why (say) the Norse gods aren't as good as the Christian one?
And I suppose the other question from me would be as an atheist I don't really care what people believe in providing it doesn't hurt others - however it seems to me that many believers really don't seem to like other people believing in a different God? Why is that?
Are we getting answers?
In the book hopefully!
however it seems to me that many believers really don't seem to like other people believing in a different God?
I would bet the number of believers who don't like people believing in other gods is about the same proportion as atheists who don't like people believing in God.
In other words, there's a portion of society that feels the need to berate other people with different points of view, regardless of what that point of view might be. People who cannot accept differences.
D'you know, it makes me very sad to think of it, whether I go first or Mrs Pondo does - just to think I'm leaving her alone, or she me.
One reason I changed my mind about having kids. So I could (hopefully) still be close to someone without Mrs Grips.
the first of the ten commandmentshowever it seems to me that many believers really don't seem to like other people believing in a different God? Why is that?
Secondly their faith lets them know the other person is wrong
I guess I'm trying to figure out why (say) the Norse gods aren't as good as the Christian one?
I'm betting that monotheism ousted polytheism partly because it was a one*-fits-all alternative without (quite) all of that pluralistic complexity and heavy ritual.
*discounting the Trinity which I still don't fully understand in a 'standalone' sense. I do find it fascinating in a comparative sense, ie
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_deity
AD - Member
I'm an atheist but I really enjoyed American Gods on Amazon - so I've been thinking - how do you choose a god to believe in? Which one is best?
You could always start your own religion?
Its just simper a bit like how having one boss would be easier than having 23I'm betting that monotheism ousted polytheism partly because it was a one*-fits-all alternative without (quite) all of that pluralistic complexity and heavy ritual.
I don't think Norse gods were actual bosses of anyone were they? Just a powerful race of beings.
To be fair, much as I would probably enjoy Norse or Roman debauchery I think I might be a pastafarian at heart... http://www.pastafarian.co.uk
I'm a pantheist = "god", universe or whatever (insert name here)is everything, therefore belief in god is irreverent as one cannot believe in everything. Which also destroys the notion of freewill as god is everything including oneself. Perfectly understandable when considered with the notions of parallel universes. Never could see the problem with being an atheist for this reason.
Well yes. To deal with the question of 'is there a god?' you first have to define 'god'.
There's one for SaxonRider's book - what is God?
If there really is a god surely he would smite anyone who started yet another STW religion thread....
I've challenged God various times, he never picks up the phone. If you are lucky you'll get his secretary.
He's probably gone down the pub.
Monotheism came about with the rise of Judaism, prior to that, it is believed that there were many Gods.
Interestingly, the Christian religion also has a polytheist premise in so far as all the saints, who are by any other name, demi-gods. Or at least, that's the interpretation I choose to make.
Talking of interpretations, I am continually surprised by the number of intelligent people on here who still feel the need to subscribe to the established definitions of God. Why? It's your life, your world, your Universe, your existence, no one else's! So why not make your reality fit for you?
Define your own God if you choose, who is there to stop you? Furthermore, choose your own version of life or non existence after shaking free of the human mortal coil, nobody knows what, if anything happens, so set yourselves free and make your own belief, it's no more delusional than believing your going to spend eternity with a shit load of virgins - which quite frankly does nothing for me, so guess what? I don't subscribe to that.
Whatever you choose to believe in or have faith in ( the two are completely interchangeable by the way), be it a Christian, Muslim, Hindu or Norse God, the Universe, it may even be money, whatever, just be sure that your faith makes you a better person and if by choosing to not believe in any form of unknown Higher Power or those listed above, that belief also makes you a better person.
Refreshing to see the lack of antagonist posts on here today, well done. 😀
In other words, there's a portion of society that feels the need to berate other people with different points of view, regardless of what that point of view might be. People who cannot accept differences
Someone should invent a word for this.
Well yes. To deal with the question of 'is there a god?' you first have to define 'god'.
That's the trick.
Junkyard - lazarus
You die and life goes on without you.
Which is fine to accept, but the concept of non-existence is a struggle. As vaguely a scientist, having an understanding under current theories that the universe is infinite and time may actually be infinite, and we cease to be and never can ever exist in any form ever again, freaks me out.
No get out with time looping round and everything repeats again. Nothing.
Belief in some kind of afterlife makes it easier to handle. Not saying you should or I do, but I kind of feel happy for people who do.
Fictional stories about immortality always go on about it being a curse. Stuff that. If it's non existence or live forever, I'll take the latter.
Anyway...
I like slackalice.
In the complete absence of any proof,WHY?
the concept of non-existence is a struggle
Of course it's a struggle, you didn't exist before your birth and you'll ceace to exist when you die.
That's a hard pill to swallow.
Whether you can get over it or not, it's entirely up to you.
If God is good, why did he choose Evolution (with its attendant suffering, waste, and in the animal kingdom, predatory behaviour) as the process to run his cosmos?
Thank you molgrips.
Thank you also for your continued presence and stance on these faith threads, in spite of the views expressed. Better man than me, I stopped contributing as I cannot be arsed trying to explain anything to anyone who goes to any length to not listen and show a modicum of respect.
Thanks also to the mods, who I presume have at the very least had a word or two with the main protagonists and as such have enabled an environment for more reasoned discussion.
Who else? My agent, my manager, my partner, parents and of course, the Universe for making all this happen in the first place 😉
I think I like your idea of a bike ride too 😀
deadkenny Don't get hung up with this universe/or time frame, there are plenty of others (unlimited). Lose the notion of self and accept the notion that you are the universe(s). "The concept of non-existence is a struggle" which is why Religion and faith where invented, for the need for the "self" to exist. Self is totally irreverent to the universe and is but a moment.
Feelin’ the love.
@ weatheredwannabe - beautifully and eloquently put, my belief too 😀
molgrips - Member
Well yes. To deal with the question of 'is there a god?' you first have to define 'god'
Everyone defines God in their own manner.
I'm happy with my definition and my answer to the 'Is there a God?' question.
Yeah, it's a good thread 🙂
Religion is a fascinating topic because its completely intertwined with history and humanity and those things make us who we are even if we aren't believers.
weatheredwannabe- very Bhuddist view - not sure if intentional or not- not a criticism just an observation seeing as its a nice thread
FWIW i think there is a difference between spirituality and faith
I have dabbled and whilst i do many Buddhist practices i dont consider myself one and I dont believe in reincarnation or nirvana but i do feel happier doing spiritual things [ yoga/meditation in the main]
I don't quite understand what spirituality means. I see myself as a collection of emotions, and I know they are created by chemicals, so I don't separate them from the physical world. Does spirituality draw a distinction between the physical world and something else?
Well that depends on how you define it.
🙂
But yes.
😀
Do you believe that there is anything that isn't part of 'the physical realm'?
If spirituality had nothing to do with the physical world people wouldn't do this for spiritual reasons:
[img] 
[/img]
Could you tell me what's spiritual about it?
He is on a bike and that idiot is walking 😉
Just because you dont believe in god does not mean you are no longer on a quest for meaning and i think we all need to stop and stare in wonder at this great experience called life and the universe
Its fantastic and all of us can do great things [ though not on the internet in my case] . We can a make a difference, we can all improve ourselves and the world and it means nothing at all
I dont intellectualise it i just feel better when I meditate or do yoga or seek inner harmony/peace - again I hide this incredibly well n the internet dont I 😳
Good question molgrips and one I've pondered on for a number of years, which has lead me to draw a definition that I relate to, which is the same definition I hold for Love:
The will to extend oneself for the benefit of ones own and another's personal growth.
It's all about the intent and being present. Who has been somewhere with others or on your own where the experience filled you with pure joy or intense feelings of goodwill? That could be a spiritual experience. Lots of things can go into the mix too and there are lots of ways to access those moments and state of being.
By the way, my definition, for me. I have no intention of it being a doctrine! It may be bat shit mental and delusional to some, but it's my world, my Universe! 😉
Just because you dont believe in god does not mean you are no longer on a quest for meaning
I'm not.
I'm quite happy that there is no 'meaning'.
🙂
.....i just feel better when I meditate or do yoga or seek inner harmony/peace
I can enjoy that too, but without the quest.
And you're intellectualising it right now.
your just trying to test my inner calm arent you:wink:
We are debating it so to some degree yes just as you are with no "meaning"
Shall we forgive each other
Shall we get back to asking questions or continue patting each other on the back?
Yeah okay, so jimjam, are you feeling the Love?
😉
😆
I'm serious!
🙂
You choose not to believe in God, but still believe there is some form of 'meaning' to be searched for.
A physical thing, a true understanding of the mechanics behind the universe, or something 'spiritual'?
If the latter, you've replaced a belief in God with something almost indistinguishable.
Which matters to you and not the person who forms such a belief.
I know.
🙂
I'm interested how we reconcile seemingly unreconcileable concepts.
It seems to be a universal human trait.
slackalice - MemberYeah okay, so jimjam, are you feeling the Love?
No. I'm sitting here wondering why the old testament god was such an asshole.
I'm interested how we reconcile seemingly unreconcileable concepts.
It seems to be a universal human trait.
You just answered your own question there!
No. I'm sitting here wondering why the old testament god was such an asshole.
Fair enough, crack on.