[Closed] As a graphic designer should I learn webdesign?

My opinion is that good designers aren't good builders and vice versa. I am a designer and spend my days designing/structuring etc websites but can't code a line - we employ someone else to do that. And he can't design.

But no harm in having a dabble, but a good builder wouldn't even look at Dreamweaver...

I currently design a few web layouts in the two above programs and then pass these onto our marketing partners (who have web designers working for them)

This is the bit I'm confused about. Are you substituting the terms web designer & web developer/coder. Often they are the same people but not the same thing.

If your designing sites does that include the functionality or are you just the artworker?

just the artworker

you should learn how people view websites as opposed to how they view printed material.

are you designing & structuring in Illustrator/PS?

(just reread)

I do have say into how it should function too

If you'r just artworking someone else's designs then there is no need to learn Dreamweaver etc. Unless you don't want to be just an artworker.

You'll probably also come across a job one day where it would be advantageous to have an understanding of how sites get built even if still artworking.

EDIT: just seen your last post. If your designing functionality then you should understand how a site is built, otherwise how do you know what is/isn't possible? And as iDave say's user experience knowledge is also important.

I've never met a decent designer who either wanted too, or was capable of doing coding

I've never met a decent programmer who either wanted too, or was capable of designing

The two areas tend to be mutually exclusive in my experience.

Why not have a play with Flash. I find that useful to add some functionality and movement to your web designs without getting into coding stuff, which makes my brain ache and my heart sink

NO! Don't bother to learn Flash - it is a dying beast. Apple (iPads/iPhones) don't support it so why build something that immediately excludes a percentage of visitors.

I've never met a decent designer who either wanted too, or was capable of doing coding

If your talking web designer then I disagree. They may not be hand coding PHP but, especially in small businesses, web designers can often put a site together.

And forget Flash. It's not readable by search engines so not suitable for 99% of websites.

It's not readable by search engines

[i]Optimizing Flash for the so-demanding search engines is not an easy task. The effort that must be done and the amount of energy that must be spent on SEO for Flash are far greater than for the optimization of a HTML site.

Following are some tips on how to optimize Flash on your web site:

One of the best methods to optimize your Flash pages is to use the NOEMBED tag, the same way the NOFRAMES tag is used to index the sites built on frames. It's between the noembed and noembed tags that text content must be inserted after you have defined a clear search engine optimization strategy for Flash.
Another Flash SEO method is the use of a CSS element, .div (which incorporates search engine accessible content), associated with a JavaScript function called SWFObject. This will allow detecting when browsers can display and view Flash. Search engine spiders that cannot handle Flash will choose to view the primary content, which contains links, headings, text, etc. in this case, Flash will not create any problems. It may not cause your site to rise spectacularly in the SERPs, but it will eliminate most of the ranking disadvantages that come with Flash sites.
If you're going for the "all-Flash" approach (although most SEO practitioners strongly advise against this), there is also the possibility to create a HTML version of the Flash site and to offer that one for the spiders to index. You can create distinct HTML pages for each Flash page, and install the Flash movie on each page. If the visitor can handle Flash, they will see it. Otherwise, there will still be the HTML version, also accessible to search engine spider for indexing. You might lose the seamless effect that comes with Flash, but you will gain visibility and, possibly, some good ranking.
Use the Flash Search Engine SDK tool called swf2html. It will extract the text from the Flash file and transfer it into a simple HTML document, so you don't have to do it manually. You will thus be able to see what the search engine spiders see.
Also, it would be useful to take into account some other aspects that might make a difference in your endeavor to make your Flash site compatible (and readable) with search engines.[/i]

I've never met a decent programmer who either wanted too, or was capable of designing

I know one, but he's the exception that proves the rule.

[url= http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=72746&query=flash+site+indexing&type= ]Yeah, ok smarty pants[/url]. 😉 I was simplifying the point as not all the content can be indexed. And not by all search engines.

ok thanks guys thats confirmed my fears - I'll stick to the pretty part 😆

I was simplifying the point as not all the content can be indexed. And not by all search engines.

Just correcting you 😉 but I do technically agree with you - if a primary function of the site is to be search engine optimised I would never, ever recommend using Flash

However, some Flash-like functions can be achieved using HTML5 now - here is a site we have just put live (and I did the 'brand' - don't tell TJ - too and I love it). All the animation on the homepage is coded...

🙂

[url= http://www.oasishumanrelations.org.uk/ ]Linkity Link[/url]

I've never met a decent designer who either wanted too, or was capable of doing coding

I've never met a decent programmer who either wanted too, or was capable of designing

The two areas tend to be mutually exclusive in my experience.

I agree. Web coding is a completely different set of skills to designing. The closer to the sharp end you get, the more obvious the divide is, too. Each job is a specialist field.

The amount of vacancies you see that want graphic/web designers is infuriating. The two skills are entirely separate but too many employers don't seem to recognise this. It seems particularly prevalent at the lower end of the industry where new starters are coming in. They end up being expected to learn html and css and all that stuff because those higher up the tree can't be arsed themselves, and neither do they want to pay a professional.

I worked in computer game development for a few years and that (otherwise hateful) industry recognises that artists are artists, coders are coders and they should work together. Typically you were teamed up with a specialist coder in the field you were working in and together you'd make it work.

But in the world of design and web it seems too many employers want a jack of both trades and master of neither, so you end up with dull websites that are functionally compromised. Like the ones I can build. They work, they conform to standards but they're just boring because when it comes to code I'm not skilled enough to do anything good.

In the last week I've done some voluntary work that included building a website and it's been a dull pain in the arse. It's completely the opposite to designing.

So to answer the OP, if you want to be a more employable designer, learn how to do web design. If you want to be really good designer, focus on that.

The two skills are entirely separate but too many employers don't seem to recognise this.

Hence we employ a front-end developer and I think he is very good considering he came to us as a green Uni-leaver 2 years ago.

But if we advertised the position we would potentially describe the job as for a web designer/developer.

I basically send through artwork with my plans and usually get back "we can do this but we'd need a complete rebuild" ahaha

if a primary function of the site is to be search engine optimised

when should it not be? get them videos wrapped in some micro data!
sorry, just received the materials for my course so got my SEO hat on this morning 🙂

nice site by the way MF.

I don't entirely agree with that....etc.

And using 'designer' without specifying web or print equally confuses the situation.

I'm moving more into the world of SEO/PPC and general online marketing where i'm finding a similar cross over of roles/job requirements with people coming from a traditional marketing background.

Do it if it interests you, I'm in my 40's and I've been a graphic designer for all my working life, I did web design for a 5 year period and found it rather frustrating from a design point of view, the handling of type is pretty poor, image size and compression is a huge compromise in your design.

Pixels are for techies and points are for graphic designers.

Hmmm. I feel that if you're designing websites, then it's almost impossible to do it well without understanding the mechanics of how the pages are put together.
Otherwise I would say you need someone to interpret your designs who does know a bit of both disciplines.

The problem is, even simple websites are pretty technical things. If you don't feel you've got that type of brain, then I would leave it alone.

Web designers usually have a mix of abilities and many are quite geeky and techy as well has creative.
Photographers often have the same mix of tech/creative too.

The fact that you've mentioned 3D software and also post on singletrack leads me to believe that you maybe have the right mix? Only you can tell!

When you design for print, you need to have an understanding of the print process.

Similar thing goes for a web designer...you need to have an understanding of what's technically feasible and what isn't … if only for self defence when some lazy-arsed UI dev tells you something "can't be done like that".

Doesn't mean you need to go and learn PHP, though.

I'm as untechnical as you can get. My approach to design (as I do it, it's not graphic design or artworking) is to follow Jeff Raskin's (I think, maybe it was Alan Cooper's) advice, and treat programmers as magicians, who can make anything happen. They usually can, if they're good enough.

graphic/web designers

web designer/developer

That's the difference.

The second is fine as it's asking for a web designer.

To be fair, I haven't looked at the job market for a few years now, and with the pace of change maybe the outlook has altered a little. Last time I looked the first one was all I saw.

Look up Adobe Muse on Adobe TV- it's their new designer oriented web software that doesn't need code.

Beta out now, full software due out next year.

That's what I'm waiting for.

Never in history have 2 graphic designers ever sat and had a conversation about CSS or HTML. No matter how late it is and how much nose-bag has been consumed

If you've witnessed this you're a techy! 😉

IME designers are finding UX coding more and more important.

A friend of mine, who's a [very very IMHO!] good designer is learning the ropes of AJAX, XHTML, etc. He sees it as essential to keep ahead of the game, as more and more companies are demanding the designers to more than just Photoshop.

David Vesty @ http://www.flickr.com/photos/9505279@N04/

as more and more companies are demanding the designers do more than just Photoshop.

May I just applaud your condescending, patronising sweeping generalisation? It really was top notch!

UX coding

?

my passion (design wise) is packaging - thats where I'll stay I think.

cheers chaps

I like designing

[url= http://www.27bslash6.com/p2p.html ]pie charts for simon[/url]

In Photoshop, obviously. I can't use anything else 😉

my passion (design wise) is packaging - thats where I'll stay I think.

Wise words!

All this webby/UI/UX stuff is a load of old cobblers anyway.

Web design is becoming more and more analytics-driven, which means the web is turning into a big mountain of interactive direct mail. Good design counts for nothing: just make those CTAs nice and big.

Similar thing goes for a web designer...you need to have an understanding of what's technically feasible and what isn't … if only for self defence when some lazy-arsed UI dev tells you something "can't be done like that".

The designers told our client that 'a html email can only have one column'.

Errrr, no. Have you ever received a HTML email?

Banner on the top, navigation down the left. s'it innit?

😉

[b]xiphon[/b]
He sees it as essential to keep ahead of the game

It's a shame he has to spread himself so thin. If he's great imagine how great he could be if he spent less time fannying around in code and really indulged the power of his creative mind. Likewise, imagine how much better a talented and dedicated coder would be than him at making it come to life.

Of course he could be another exception that proves the rule but the point stands.

The most successful professional relationships I've had is where the designers design and the coders code. And though it helps to know the ins and out of development so you know what's possible, that knowledge can also take with one hand what it gives with the other. When you know the supposed limits you end up thinking within them, and innovation stalls. It's not like architecture where the laws of physics apply. The laws that govern what ultimately can and can't be done in the digital world are being smashed apart all the time.

I've come up with many a solution which initially had coders laughing in my face, then being grumpy, then scratching their head, then burying themselves in their code, then eventually, though sill outwardly resenting me, admitting that it works and it looks good and they'd never have thought of doing it.

[b]Dorset_Knob[/b]
treat programmers as magicians, who can make anything happen. They usually can, if they're good enough.

This.

As the world of technology develops, potentials expand and more and more things become possible with ever more creative uses of code and tech, at some point down the line the professions will properly split.

The jack of both trades is, I do believe, relevant right now but we're at a transition and soon the gulf will be so vast that you're in one camp or the other. Just as the rest of the industrial world has demanded that everyone specialise in order to really move forward.

It's still a young industry - I know what camp my skills are best suited to so I'm sticking to doing what I do best.

Which is, I suppose, just using photoshop.

The jack of both trades is, I do believe, relevant right now

Always will be. Not everyone works for a full services agency with eployees to cover every discipline, and not every business can afford the services of one.

In this gap fit the people that have the skills and knowledge to cover several bases. Sure, there not going to be pushing the boundaries in UX or featuring in Creative Weekly. There will always be a place for this type of person.

I view, indesign, quark(I know it's rotten, but you should still know it), photoshop, illustrator, acrobat, html/css(not dreamweaver) as part of the basic skill set of a graphic designer these days.

html/css/javascript/php/mysql/ruby whatever other language you care to mention as the domain of developers.

html/css is the presention side of things, so a designer should atleast understand what's happening and the limitations, so there is a wee bit of an overlap imo..

They're all just software products though. Tools. I regard a decent fibre-tip pen and a sketch pad as far more important than CSS or HTML ability. That's just me being an old duffer though

If I want coding, I'll pay someone to do it thanks. I'll do the ideas bit and the visuals

In my experience all you need as a designer is an understanding that the developer could probably do it, but it won't be pixel perfect.

And design for the worst case (i.e. words wrapping over two lines thus creating more space) rather than hacking word spacing etc. in Photoshop to make it look perfect.

The developers could then work some magic on that kind of design...

Agrees completely with Binners. I don't know [b]any[/b] HTML or CSS but I [b]do[/b] know what I can specify in any designs I develop so the developer can implement the designs.

It's like saying a designer should be able to operate a B2 Heidelberg 6 colour press. I can't, but I do know the difference between cmyk and Pantone spot colours, I know what machine seals and spot UV varnishes are, I know what is perfect binding and I can draw up a cutting forme...

I don't know any HTML or CSS but I do know what I can specify in any designs I develop so the developer can implement the designs.

But take my job for example, I'm not doing web design, but the ability to make up html/css templates for web to print stuff when the systems changed has kept me in a job longer than most around here while cuts where made. And tbh, making print templates isn't really a developers job. So like i say imo there is some overlap.

It's really up to yourself, you can get by with or without it, but knowing it gives you a bit more flexibilty. html/css isn't really coding either, and is easy enough to learn, compared to real coding(which is a mindf***!)

That is fair enough in an idea world.

I think what is more important than anything is the relationships between designers and programmers/developers.

For years, having established a relationship with someone who saw what I was trying to do, I've used the same people. Its a reciprocal arrangement. When they're struggling with design issues on other projects, they get in touch with me.

Works for everyone. And I'd agree that sometimes you get a 'it can't be done' answer. When what it really means is 'it can be done, but It'll be bloody difficult'

It cuts both ways and I've found that both sides benefit from being pushed outside their comfort zones

Always will be.

Do you not agree with the rest of the sentence?

but we're at a transition and soon the gulf will be so vast that you're in one camp or the other. Just as the rest of the industrial world has demanded that everyone specialise in order to really move forward.

Not being belligerent by the way - I have a genuine interest in the subject.

I wasn't really talking about the boundary pushing individual here either, him with design awards coming out if his arse. Rather a general industry wide direction.

Specialisation seems to have happened in the progression of every industry. A good way to guarantee a lack of progress is to make sure everyone is mediocre at what they're doing.

So yes, right now the jacks of all trades are in high demand. Partly because we still don't really know what we're doing or where we're going as an industry and it's all in a state of flux. You've still got creative directors at the top of the tree who never quite caught up with computers. You've still got huge swathes of the creative industries, those higher up pulling the strings, who are scared of and haven't even got the first idea what html or php is. So they just employ some kids to [i]'do all that tech stuff'[/i] without realising how short sighted it is to think that'll suddenly have the bases covered. As recent as ten years ago graphic design graduates were coming out of colleges having never learnt, nor expected to learn, anything web based. These guys are the middleweight designers of today.

But as this fades out with the passing years and the world moves on as it inevitably will (until the zombies arrive) we are moving, I believe anyway, to a state where the amount of specialised knowledge in digital fields is becoming too advanced for people to be dipping in and out of them all, covering all the bases.

I don't think it's going to be happening at just single employee level either but at an employer level also. Small agencies employing a few jacks of all trades to try and cover all bases are going to find it hard to compete unless they pick something they do well and specialise in it.

Once upon a time a few guys with soldering irons, a talent for maths and an intact virginity were the only ones making and using computers. Now look at how varied and numerous the specialist subjects have developed within the field of computing in just a few years.

Once, not that long ago, you could just be 'into computers'. Now that's too vague to even mean anything.

The world of interactive technology is going to make possible things we can't currently imagine but will soon take quickly for granted. Just in the way it already has been doing. But that wont be taken much further by relying on a bunch of graphic designers reluctantly having to spend three quarters of their working lives messing around trying to be coders.

Can't be ar$ed to read all of the above.

What I do know is that I work as a graphic designer, but also have an understanding of .css and .html. Similarly, I use Wordpress and have altered sites using the stylesheet. I have to admit that I don't consider this my forté (it's a headf*ck, if I'm brutally honest) but I see it as a very useful skill to have and certainly one that's helped me get jobs. I'm certainly no developer, but I consider most developers to be completely on the opposite side of the spectrum to me. I think you either intuitively understand coding or you don't, a bit like algebra and mechanical engineering formulae (it's no accident that several engineers I know now work in data transfer or similar).

UX = "User eXperience"

my designer friend decided to learn ajax/xhtml stuff, so his designs in his head could come to life much quicker than working with a developer to code the fades/transitions/effects.

This is only for developing ideas - once they have settled on a design, the developers then take control of the code - and rewrite it as they see fit. [b]None[/b] of his code goes into the final product without being reviewed by an experienced developer.

Muse looks interesting (for someone who can't code at all!) - I've used Freeway Pro for the odd site but its a bit clunky. On first impressions Muse looks very slick.