[Closed] Arming the police...

What a reputable news source that isn't....

Problem?

If we accept there is a need for Armed Response Units (which I think most people do) then why shouldn't they be given decent guns?

Do you really have nothing better to do than to post this sort of trolling shite ?

Don't come running to me when you're riddled with holes after a disagreement about a parking ticket!

30,000 Assault rifles is enough to go a long way to replacing the SA80.

What are they doing, creating a new army?

EDIT: The MOD are procuring a weapon in partnership with the police which they can replace the SA80 in certain front line battalions. I'm guessing this is being done because it will increase the availability of spare parts and ease of maintenance if the armed forces and the civilian forces use the same weapon.

Pffft.. it's not like they are taking control of the roads...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-18719962

😉

If we accept there is a need for Armed Response Units (which I think most people do) then why shouldn't they be given decent guns?

I can't see a problem with firearms units having good guns,it would sort of defeat the point if they had to use flintlocks...

The link posted by grahams seems a bit of an over reaction to someone pouring their soup out of a thermos...may be it was an olympic bus and you are only allowed to consume mcdonalds products.

Not on my watch.

I'm not having this country turn into a despotic totalitarian hellhole with armed police, like the Netherlands or Denmark.

Armed police would terrify the British public, there's a good reason why Brits refuse to go on holiday to places like Spain, France, Italy, the United States and Australia.

bit of an over reaction to someone pouring their soup out of a thermos.

😆 Love the very British reporting of it.

Possible terrorist attack you say? How's the traffic looking?

Peace through superior fire power FTW

Never mind all that gun nonsense, check out this quote from the BBC news story above.

Police said the coach stopped on the hard shoulder "of its own accord" at 0820 BST.

Some men in white coats over in Switzerland are getting all excited over subatomic particles, but here in Preston we've got a gods damned [i]sentient bus![/i]

there's a good reason why Brits refuse to go on holiday to places like Spain, France, Italy, the United States and Australia.

I doubt the Police being armed is a main reason why some people don't go abroad.

That article seems deliberately brief, they're not taking about arming every office they'll be looking for a standard rifle for armed response units I would think.

That article is great! The assumption that "battlefield weapons" will be used to supress protesters is a superb piece of assumption!

As a pinko liberal vegetarian public sector union rep environmentalist, I'd like my armed police to have the best weapons possible. Using firearms in a built up area, with the focus being on situation management and containment rather than "nuke em from orbit" tactics requires a high degree of accuracy, but situations can change quickly. Police fire arms teams effetivley need to be snipers, close contact infantry, rapid extraction teams rolled into one. A weapon that covers all those bases would be a huge benefit.

Also the army could do with new guns as the SA80's and variants are on the whole a bit crap.

(police up here have big guns anyway!)

Fair enough but why on earth do they need C8s when L85s are considered good enough for war zones?

Because the L85 is a heavy, badly arranged weapon that has appalling ergonomics and a dire trigger.

I would much rather have/use a C8/AR-15 based weapon (even with the shorter barrel and therefore slightly worse accuracy at longer ranges) than the L85 for just about every type of situation I can think of, especially as those clever chaps at H&K have developed a version that is effectively modular.

Police fire arms teams effetivley need to be snipers, close contact infantry, rapid extraction teams rolled into one

Hahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

Hahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

Because the L85 is a heavy, badly arranged weapon that has appalling ergonomics and a dire trigger.

I would much rather have/use a C8/AR-15 based weapon (even with the shorter barrel and therefore slightly worse accuracy at longer ranges) than the L85 for just about every type of situation I can think of, especially as those clever chaps at H&K have developed a version that is effectively modular.

Me too. BUT if it's good enough for the boys to use against multiple enemy in afghanistan in dire conditions, then it must be considered good enough for plod to shoot civilians from 20 meters in the wirral?

Special Air Service uses in its high-profile operations.

High profile operations? Really?

Shock - Police buy equipment that works! That is news.

Lots of ARU use H&K G36 variants, a 5.56 calibre weapon system. The C8/sfw/L119a1 is also a 5.56 calibre weapon system. Same round so no difference to penetration/risk to others than before.
SFSG and both Poole & Credenhill make use of the C8 in large numbers and hve done for a good few years. Most likely cheaper to go down a joint procurement/maintenance route than to keep the H&K stuiff running or replace the now ageing MP5 range used by some forces.
So probably cheaper, both as a weapon system and to maintain. Little retraining needed and no real difference in the force applied.
Meh.

Why do the armed police want C8's?

Because deep down they're all just a bunch of 'them' Walts of course 😉

The public has not threatened their government or police in a way that could possibly warrant this. Neither have the fictitious so called terrorists. This is more like a premeditated intent to murder thousands of civilians. Shame on you Ministry of Offense

Ooookaaaaay. Does that tye-dye shirt itch at all? 😯

OOooohhhh! (Frankie Howard) New toys ... 😆

Looks like a better gun too.

As for police carrying guns what's wrong with that? You mean you prefer them to carrying those Victorian Police baton? ... LOL! Well, if the society has a Victorian mindset then yes police baton. Otherwise, ya shoot a few ...

For what it's worth, and having lived in the US and Italy as well as Britain, I probably accept the need for armed response units, but arming the generality of police scares me. Italian caribineri in particular are scary people.

This is more like a premeditated intent to murder thousands of civilians.

[img] [/img]

unless scuzz is also called bruce that was a quote from the Iranian propaganda outlet

Kill em all, let god sort em out. Police or criminals, i'm not fussy.

Edit- MegaLOLZ at GrahamS

Edit Edit- Need Captain Hindsight as well, with the powers of 20/20 hindsight- he can see exactly what [b]should[/b] have been done! (Can't claim credit for that, South Park have that one. The episode is class.)

igm - Member
... but arming the generality of police scares me.

LOL! Are you criminal minded? Are you slowly developing the urge of doing something bad? Are getting a bit violence? Do you think you have criminal intention?

Look! Behind you! The Italian caribineri ... 😆

Ya, I think I ask them to "talk" to you hopefully their partners Benelli M4 will be there to show some support to.

Italian caribineri in particular are scary people.

Ya, obviously Italy is such a peaceful civilise country with friendly mafia that warrant baton carrying Victorian Police. Imagine if the Italian police are carrying baton ... bet the mafia with throw pizza at them ...

unless scuzz is also called bruce that was a quote from the Iranian propaganda outlet

As for police carrying guns what's wrong with that?

Because they aren't responsible enough?

Proof?

The Policeman that executed de Menezes on the tube train is still working in the same role I believe. Now, I certainly don't think the Policeman was to blame for the murder of de Menezes, the blame lies higher up the chain of command. The Policemen did everything we required of him.

But, the way I see it, that Policemen is now in one of two states of mind. Either he's perfectly comfortable with having executed a complete innocent in terrifying circumstances, or he's very sorry. In either case, is this really the short of mental state that we should be relying upon to pull the trigger (or not) at the right time? He should have remained at full pay, but transferred to a non-firearm job.

I once heard some high up Police bod interviewed saying he can get officers firearms trained in a week. WTF, I wouldn't shoot on a well controlled cold range with someone that only had one weeks training, let alone trust them in public with a firearm!

Because deep down they're all just a bunch of 'them' Walts of course

BINGO!
The big timing walts want some sexy kit so they can get some jive phots for facebook.

The rozzers don't need C8's. They'll all have their selector switches fixed so that they can only be fired single shot anyway and as such the rozzers don't need c8s.
If we're going for cost/economy of scale, the L85 will be best for this.
UKSF are by no means the only ones issued with the C8 either.

The question I always have, when it comes to routinely arming all police officers, is will they train everyone up to the current standards, or lower the standards so that everyone can pass? The first of which I suspect is impossible.

And even with the current standards they kill people.

But somehow "good" people killing innocent bystanders is Ok, it's just "bad" people killing innocent bystanders we worry about.

Feel free to substitute shoot for kill in the above it you prefer.

Another big problem is keeping the training up. I'm in the TA (no laughing at the back) and I shoot with the Army a fair bit, quite a lot by normal TA standards actually, and I know from experience that people that do the minimum training for their qualification are _usually_ not that competent in their weapons handling*.

If all police were armed and only had to qualify once a year, which is possible, then I would seriously worry at the level of skill that would be developed and maintained within the rank and file, especially given the lack of budget for training and practice that I am pretty certain would be enforced.

It would be worse with pistols too. Short weapons are a lot more dangerous to the people that are around you than rifles are and, whilst I can see an argument for allowing expansion of less lethal weapons within the police, I would not want to see expansion of the use of pistols for the same reasons as above.

If a specialist skillset like ARU is kept to a small, highly trained and maintained group, then they will be safer and better able to carry out their duties.

* - some people can keep up their skills between qualifications, but they will _not_ be as good as someone that does things regularly and often.

(erm... when did this become a story about arming ALL police? 😕 )

Arming [i]all[/i] police was first mentioned in the post immediately above your photo, that's where it veered off.

CS
Pepper
Tazers

Yes.

Guns. No.

CS
Pepper
Tazers

Yes.

Guns. No.

[img] [/img]

Have the police in Northern Ireland not been routinely armed for decades with no big problems? So why couldn't it work in the UK? I don't buy the idea that the Uk police are unique in the worlds police forces that they couldn't be trained to use firearms properly.

Though actually I would prefer more ARVs to routine arming of all cops. The criminals have guns so the police need them.

You guys are ****ing ****s and that's all there is to it.

* The L85A2's are ****ed. They've been battered to death in the sands of Afghanistan and Iraq. They are coming to the end of their service lives within the next decade.

* We do not produce L85's anymore, we only have a limited stock of supplies to rebuild the weapons. Consequently giving the police army surplus hand me downs is out of the question.

* L85's even in the A2 guise are a ****ing pain, they're not ambidextrous, they don't collapse down like C8's, they're heavy, they're prone to muzzle climb etc etc

* The MOD want to slowly phase out the L85 and so are procuring a new weapon.

* The police are not entirely happy with their G36's, which they bought in small batches for high costs.

* The police want to be able to replace their ageing weapons with a weapon that is deemed fit for purpose by the MOD. The Army/Navy will put the weapons through selection and they will most likely do a better job of selecting the best weapon than the police could do alone.

* Buying in bulk with the MOD, will save the police a fortune. Currently they have wasted a lot of money buying small batches of various different weapons.

* Having the same weapons as the military will allow easier interforces training.

* The L85A2's are ****. They've been battered to death in the sands of Afghanistan and Iraq.

We do not produce L85's anymore, we only have a limited stock of suppliers to rebuild the weapons. Consequently giving the police army surplus hand me downs is out of the question.

* L85's even in the A2 guise are a **** pain, they're not ambidextrous, they don't collapse down like C8's, they're heavy, they're prone to muzzle climb etc etc

* The MOD want to slowly phase out the L85 and so are procuring a new weapons.

CS, Taser & Pepper to deal with crims with guns, where do you sign I'm in. When they let me out of hospital that is.

Generally, the consensus is the L85's are getting long in the tooth. There are no production lines open anymore, that means either you have to rely on surplus stocks or open short run production lines - this costs a fortune. This alone is enough to not consider them for police use, it will be more expensive to maintain them for the next 20 years than it will be to purchase new weapons.

Incidentaly this is the same reason why we're slowly phasing out Challenger 2.

And well done for managing to mention the obligatory SLR's 😆 . They'd be as ****ing useful as a 40mm cannon in a hostage situation.

* The police are not entirely happy with their G36's, which they bought in small batches for high costs.

Cheeky gits. They ****ed up their procurement and now they just want whatever SF use. I'd be surprised if the Diemaco's were the most cost effective though. I'd imagine M4s could be supplied cheaper by Colt, remington etc.
What's your problem with SLRs? where did I mention a use for them?

Diemaco are owned by Colt you twit lol.

If you want to be outraged, why does this bother you and not the police mentioning "grenade launchers". Priorities man.

So?
Doesn't mean a C8 is the same price as the M4 does it?

Dorel owns cannondale and schwinn. Means nothing.

What makes you think I'm outraged?
I'm more concerned about how they spend our £s than anything else.
I don't see why they should be driving BMWs either.

SLRs... From what I hear that's a proper rifle. None of this newfangled SA80 rubbish. Bloody youngsters.

Wrecker, you may well have more experience in things like this than me, so I apologise in advance if that is the case, but a lot of things re still doing tours and they are worn out to hell and back. My old Frontera was still going when I had to get rid of it, but it was the right choice... When you hear that the part you need is no longer made and is not even held in stock in this country any more, you have to think it's time to move on.

Leaving that argument aside for now, just ask why the the police even need long rifles anyway? With the exception of the marksmen, when have police ever needed something that can reach out to 300+m? Surely choosing something that will not overpenetrate in the situations that are likely would be a better choice? I would not want to be down-range of a G36-toting copper in Terminal 5 if they open up on someone.

Why should the police buy M4's as opposed to Hk416s/C8's or whatever the Army buys if they can get them at a knocked down price by buying in bulk? And we are in agreement, are we not, that the Army should get a decent weapon out the box this time round? Instead of spending a fortune upgrading a POS?

If they opt for a different weapon system it's going to drive up costs.

With the exception of the marksmen, when have police ever needed something that can reach out to 300+m

Nail. Head.

MP7 ftw

And we are in agreement, are we not, that the Army should get a decent weapon out the box this time round? Instead of spending a fortune upgrading a POS?

Why should the police buy M4's as opposed to Hk416s/C8's or whatever the Army buys if they can get them at a knocked down price by buying in bulk?

Except that it's debatable whether the round from an MP7 can put someone down quick enough in a suicide-bomber situation etc.

You can put lighter grain hollow point rounds with less propellant in and reduce a lot of over penetration issues. An MP7 round is still going to cause serious injury at 300m anyway, even a .22 lr will.

@ Wrecker, the C8's have largely the same internals as the M4. The Americans seem to be slowly replacing their M4 with various new toys anyway. Also it's probably not wise to go with a direct-gas mechanism weapon, they need more regular maintenance, the army will probably want something that is squaddie proof. I'd be surprised if we get C8s or M4s. I think it will be an HK type piston mechanism.

true, but the same could be said about the SS109 if it comes out at a similar speed to what it went in at!

And that's why the police have hollow points.

But that's why you want a larger diameter round that will dump all its energy in the target immediately, rather than standard 5.56 which, let's face it, the police will buy in bulk. Bog standard NATO ball. Anything else would be too niche and too expensive.

For the use case that the police have, using something that will put a heavy round into the target at longer range (5.56 or 7.62) will do one job, and having something like a 10mm or .45ACP SMG for shorter range situations will be perfectly adequate. Better than adequate in fact, both those rounds will not over penetrate and if you use hollowpoints, will make a big hole in target. They would also be relatively cheap to train with. Something like the UMP would do the job.

Mind you, the shakeys have pretty much mothballed their 9mm stuff in favour of the 10" sfw for crw stuff as body armour is so readily available to naughty people nowadays. Penetration for them certainly beats the risk of over travel but I would have thought that police firearms units have much more to think about when it comes to not accidentally hitting nice people due to over penetration or travel.

As for c8/M4 they are to all intents and purposes the same. Proper gun nerd head could list the differences but then I'd look proper weird!

Armed police would terrify the British public, there's a good reason why Brits refuse to go on holiday to places like Spain, France, Italy, the United States and Australia.

But that's why you want a larger diameter round that will dump all its energy in the target immediately, rather than standard 5.56 which, let's face it, the police will buy in bulk. Bog standard NATO ball. Anything else would be too niche and too expensive.

For the use case that the police have, using something that will put a heavy round into the target at longer range (5.56 or 7.62) will do one job, and having something like a 10mm or .45ACP SMG for shorter range situations will be perfectly adequate. Better than adequate in fact, both those rounds will not over penetrate and if you use hollowpoints, will make a big hole in target. They would also be relatively cheap to train with. Something like the UMP would do the job.

Except the police do have lots of hollow points and it would be cheaper to shoot rounds with smaller charges than having several different weapons for different jobs, when an M4 could do everything from QQ work to longer range shoot outs in Hyde Park.

I reckon the police have already thought this out, don't you?

Why would you want a low velocity .45 UMP for close quarters work when the targets are potentially carrying body armour? None of the pistol rounds are good against kevlar, which is why the P90/MP7 round was designed.

With 5.56 you can have mags loaded with various rounds to defeat various targets....bog standard ball, high velocity match rounds, armour piercing, hollowpoint, one company even manufactures subsonic rounds that allows the M4 to cycle properly etc.... you can't do the same with .45 ............there was a reason they phased out the Thompson and it was mostly down to the calibre being a slow, recoil heavy round designed to take down cavalry during WW1.