Very much so. Ive always thought those who weren't are likely leftists spineless re-moaner types who wish the war went the other way so there would be no doubt who is in charge of the country these days.
In a flag waving, jingoistic way, no. I’m a republican, anti fascist, socially liberal, economically interventionist. So most of the things stereotypical patriots aren’t. But….
Am I glad I live in country that takes individual freedoms, workers rights, the rule of law, education, academia and health care (at least comparatively) seriously. Yes. I am. Even if these things have taken a knock recently I still think the trajectory is recoverable. (If I’m wrong we’re ****, admittedly).
That - with added "I ****ing hate anyone who describes themselves as a patriot since they're either a racist ****wit (maybe an occasional non-racist ****wit) or else they're someone in power who's using the aforementioned to achieve some inappropriate end"
and yes, what patriotism I had has been eroded by "recent events" to the point that I now wish I wasn't tied to this shithole (and thus the ****s inhabiting it) for the next several years. God, I hope my kids have the sense to GTFO
Certainly less than i use to be , Brexit and the last election certainly made me feel my country's values were moving away from my own .
But with regards to VE day there is a certain pride there , mainly pride in my grandparents and their role in it . Nothing exceptional , RAF and Hawker Sidley for my granddads and factory's for my Nans but one side survived the London blitz and the other the Coventry one . So whilst i certainly wont celebrate it in any jingoistic way and in fact despise the effect it has on how we see ourselves as a nation I do think we should be proud of the normal people of that generation and the sacrifices they made .
It's interesting looking at the Cabinet notes of McMillan's Govt. The discussion around BoB and VE day celebrations were all very much full of "Can we not stop doing this now, it all seems a bit backwards and a silly?" and "Let's have something but lets name a roundabout in Leicester or commemorative Library in Finchley, just so can say we've done something"
And let's not forget, these were largely the men who actually fought in the bloody war!
It was the Hunter under the Tower Bridge by the RAF who were pissed off that their 50th anniversary wasn't being celebrated and who were seeing their service being stripped right back that highlighted the issue to the wider public in a sort "Oi, we saved this bloody country 20 years ago"... way
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Hunter_Tower_Bridge_incident
@mogrim, how do the Spanish feel about their Imperial past? Along with the British, French and to a lesser extent many other smaller European countries, they weren’t exactly the best behaved. I’m not having a dig btw. Just interested in how present day Spain and Spaniards view their history. Is there a collective guilt similar to (some) of the UK population?
Bank holiday here in France tomorrow as well.
This is quite interesting to see the French perspective on it: https://www.gouvernement.fr/que-celebre-t-on-le-8-mai
"After more than five years of a war in Europe that claimed the lives of tens of millions of people, the Allied forces entered Germany in February 1945. Three days after the suicide of Adolf Hitler in his bunker, on April 30 , the Nazi troops who defended Berlin capitulated, on May 2, 1945.
On the night of May 6 to 7, General Alfred Jodl - Wehrmacht chief of staff - signed the unconditional surrender of Germany in Reims. The act of capitulation fixed the cessation of hostilities on May 8 at 11:01 p.m. A new act of capitulation of the Third Reich was then signed in Berlin between the German and Allied military command. The war officially ended on the European continent."
I’m still proud to be British though less than I used to be, but a lot of countries fail that test. I’m also English though couldn’t really give a toss about that, I guess partly coz my old man was Irish, although my mums family were English.
Only when Wales are playing rugby...
Being proud of your mum dropping you out on a certain bit of dirt is a very odd concept.
Proud to be a Scot, don't really feel the same about the British bit. Partly possibly due to us up here kinda knowing we're the wee guy, the underdog, and generally being a bit down on ourselves (which the indyref proved - we just don't believe we're good enough)
The whole pomp and ruling the waves stuff doesn't sit well with me, not a choice I've made, just a gut feeling.
I've also noticed that it's often the 1940's Battle of Britain bit of the war that the red be-trousered brigade are fond of talking about; rather than the struggle across the Rhineland-dirty war largely fought by Everyone (including the Brazilians) in May '45 bit of the war.
Curious that...
Never heard that story about the RAF pilot before, thats fantastic.
I'd say no, but this...
why didn't that work? I'll try....
. Nah. Whatever, 2012 Olympic opening, Danny Boyle. You know the one.
...tickled something. Shame it now seems like an illusion.
I was going to say something flippant about being from Yorkshire, but actually it's not that flippant, hills, heather, gritstone, industry, dales, sea. Though there's lots I don't like (mainly people - the one thing Cameron was ever right about. Joke.)
I'm quite patriotic, otherwise I wouldn't be so angry about the disasterous results of 10 years of a Tory government on our country, including their current mismanagement of the current COVID-19 crisis, and the economic, environmental and social disaster that Brexit will bring!
You don't need to be a knuckle-dragging, union jack clad, xenophobic UKIP supporter to be patriotic. I'm a left-wing republican but proud to say I'm from Yorkshire, England, Britain, the UK and Europe and want a fairer society where the current socio-economic divisions are reduced.
The fact British patriotism always seems to attach itself to war doesn't help either tbh.
No. House near me has been decorated with union jack bunting which I thought was odd until I read on here that it's a BH tomorrow due to something or the other. Clearly not keeping up.
No.
I'm not proud of the nations' (in)ability to reflect on my own sense of being.
I’m quite patriotic, otherwise I wouldn’t be so angry about the disasterous results of 10 years of a Tory government on our country
I'm far from a Tory, but isn't it true that Labour had what, 13 years of continued growth and still sold off our gold?.
deadlydarcy
Is there a collective guilt similar to (somea vanishingly small part) of the UK population?
You especially must know how little the vast majority of the UK population know about how much Britain ****** over Ireland in the last century, never mind what it did in and to a large part of the globe in the last 500 years.
Patriotism is completely natural. It's an extension of family, the folk you share DNA with. You see it in other species too. From family, it's town, then county, then nation. Of course, these bonds have become weaker as we, as a species, have travelled more.
I certainly don't feel bad about my own type of patriotism. I certainly don't accept unquestioning obedience to those who seek to rule my country, which is part of what we witness here in the UK.
It's not the 'patriotism' I hate the most (although I do despise it), it's the knee-bending, cap doffing class deference many people in this country still have towards the royal family and the aristocracy. It's no coincidence that the people who still know their place and revere their 'betters' are the ones who look for solace in past military victories. And then they have the brass neck to call those of us who have managed to free ourselves from this cultural servitude 'spineless snowflakes'. It's a mental illness, no better than a brainwashed cult.
There was a time, around Euro 96,
think you experienced a different euro 96 to me, pretty sure 2 ww and 1 wc was repeated often. london olympics seemed a much better sporting time, but yeah we seem to have gone backwards quite a way since then.
Being proud of accident of birth is always weird, I like a lot of things about our country and fellow country men/women, but yeah ashamed to be english sometimes, which is curious as its the actions of a few that embarass me - and Im dead against collective responsibility when it comes to cyclists
it’s societally acceptable to be fiercely proud of your nationality in pretty much every country in the world except England
is this true tho? or another case of english exceptionalism? 😉
I kinda doubt no-one else finds fierce patriotism cringy/bad
Much less than I used to be.
I've been travelling abroad for 50 years and getting on with Europeans for that time.
Britons' ignorance of history and other cultures , combined with our recent descent into jingoism has made me almost ashamed.
Having Boris as a national leader means we are taken as a joke, rather than respected as we used to be, until recently
I’m quite patriotic, otherwise I wouldn’t be so angry about the disasterous results of 10 years of a Tory government on our country, including their current mismanagement of the current COVID-19 crisis, and the economic, environmental and social disaster that Brexit will bring!
You don’t need to be a knuckle-dragging, union jack clad, xenophobic UKIP supporter to be patriotic. I’m a left-wing republican but proud to say I’m from Yorkshire, England, Britain, the UK and Europe and want a fairer society where the current socio-economic divisions are reduced.
You don't need to be patriotic to care about the fate of other people.
I'm not at all patriotic, I remember about 20 years ago arguing with my SIL's brother about it, he was a proud kiwi and thought I should be proud of where I was from too, I didnt argue too hard as he was a massive Maori!
Interesting that some see themselves as English, Welsh or Scots. I'm a Brit, for better or worse.
Just made a lighthearted comment elsewhere about Northumbria, being born and raised in central Northumberland i and most of my family would not consider ourselves English or Scots? But Borderers...
Odd but its a consistent attitude in that part of the world.
In respect to patriotism its a "bollocks" from me the powers that be in this country including the monarchy have done their collective best to shorten/end our lives.
i and most of my family would not consider ourselves English or Scots? But Borderers…
I think that just emphasises my point about family and tribe.
<
think you experienced a different euro 96 to me, pretty sure 2 ww and 1 wc was repeated often. london olympics seemed a much better sporting time, but yeah we seem to have gone backwards quite a way since then.
WHS^^^
I'm fairly patriotic, but the veneration of VE Day tomorrow makes me really sad - has it always had such coverage? Maybe on special anniversaries, but it generally passes by with barely a blip, and that's ok. Tomorrow just feels like a Tory/Cummings/Murdoch "problems? What problems? Everyone's having a great time!!!" scam, which couldn't be any less respectful of 1945.
Forgot to add.
F Brexit and f the f***ing Daily Mail.
WHS^^^, too.
The fact British patriotism always seems to attach itself to war doesn’t help either tbh...
The Pub Landlord knows the score
I don’t think VE Day and patriotism should be too closely linked. I very much doubt that in 25 years we’ll be celebrating the 100th anniversary with as much fervour, but while the generation that fought are still around why the hell not give them a bit of recognition?
My next door neighbour is a 95 year Lancaster Air Gunner. Having flown over Europe, at this point 75 years ago was preparing to go to the Far East to finish the war against the Japanese. We all know how that ended up courtesy of our American friends.
Tomorrow we shall have a small garden party, just this household mind, put up a bit of bunting and celebrate the end of the war in Europe. Not for anything more than to pay a tribute to a rapidly dwindling generation of people that gave something or everything.
@mogrim, how do the Spanish feel about their Imperial past? Along with the British, French and to a lesser extent many other smaller European countries, they weren’t exactly the best behaved. I’m not having a dig btw. Just interested in how present day Spain and Spaniards view their history. Is there a collective guilt similar to (some) of the UK population?
@deadlydarcy no collective guilt I've ever noticed, but then they still get a pretty white-washed view of their history as far as I can tell. History teaching is a bit of a political hot potato though: the Basques and the Catalan governments make a lot out of supposed historical independence (a lot of it seemingly massively exagerrated) and the central Castillian governments obviously want to big up the Spanish Greatest Hits, while at the same time minimising any negative bits.
I don’t think VE Day and patriotism should be too closely linked.
That's not going to stop right wing nationalist populists doing it, though.
See Fatty Flatulent Francois with his Dambusters poster up in his office.
****.
There are things I love about this country, and by this country I mean Great Britain, not just England.
Beer, the country side, the sea side (chavvy bits and all), currys, the multicultural nature of it, it really is a multicultural country.
I just hate the stuff thats gone on in the country over the past few years. Brexit, Independence votes, a seeming rise of racism. Politics has finally ruined the place for me. I'd love to leave but I'm a massive pussy....
Everything I have an interest in has been either invented or massively influenced by the British in a way few countries can claim. That makes me proud and content to be British, if that is what patriotism is.
That doesn't mean I agree with every policy enacted or don't have sympathy for those hurt by them. There isn't a utopia.
^^^
Jesus ads678, are you stalking me? Have you taken over my mind....
HIgh five Dannyh!!
There was a time, around Euro 96, where there was tentatively emerging a more open, multicultural, inclusive, forward-looking ‘British’ identity that didn’t revolve around the knuckle-dragging ‘2 world wars and a world cup’ and images of Spitfires and endlessly banging on about ‘the Spirit of the Blitz’.
Is that just exactly the same thing?
When you were young (in '96) the middle aged grownups were still reminiscing about the Blitz Spirit whilst you got on with doing industrial quantities of E and wizz at the Hacienda and Wiggan Pier. Everything seemed to be going on the up (until Monday morning anyway when you had to deal with the comedown).
Now you're the middle aged one moaning about how things were better in your day.
I’m not patriotic in the least. Each to their own, but personally I find the whole concept weird.
My feelings are similar to the OP in respect of me being patriotic. Whilst I'm definitely privileged to be born in Britain, that doesn't necessarily make me patriotic. In the same way if I was born in North Korea, Italy or Somalia would I be as proud?
There are elements of this country I admire: The countryside, the history but I don't feel that qualifies patriotism. That said. Having travelled much of Europe and beyond there's not many countries I'd rather live. Britain feels just like home.
I’d like England to win the world cup
You see. Stumbling block no.1.
We don't have a national team.
We have 4 nations teams and various islands and dependencies who we ignore with such things.
I'm comfortable being Scottish, but for me that has far more to do with some sense of ethnic identity, history and culture, than any cheerleading for a nation-state. I've got a reasonably good grasp of both the highlights of our collective endeavours; for a small chunk of the world, we've made some fairly life-changing contributions, and some of the less-savoury aspects of our involvement in world affairs. I find the 'tartan tourism' aspects of our current identity a bit cringy, but if it parts affluent Americans from their siller, then I can live with that.
Far from being peculiar, I'd argue that having some sense of 'rootedness' is vital for human wellbeing, and only becomes problematic when it manifests in toxic ways and seeks to diminish 'the other' - but that's a problem at an individual, as much as a collective, level.
When you were young (in ’96) the middle aged grownups were still reminiscing about the Blitz Spirit whilst you got on with doing industrial quantities of E and wizz at the Hacienda and Wiggan Pier. Everything seemed to be going on the up (until Monday morning anyway when you had to deal with the comedown).
Now you’re the middle aged one moaning about how things were better in your day.
While that is indeed a valid consideration - I was ripped to the tits on weapons-grade MDMA for most, well... actually all of the 90's, You didn't have this undercurrent of really unpleasant Nationalism and English exceptionalism then. I reckon if you'd have had the Brexit vote in 1997 when Blair had just been elected, it'd have been remain easily.
It's in the last 10-15 years that there has been a resurgence of nationalism as a reaction to globalisation and the flag-waving has been increasingly encouraged, with Farage and UKIP blaming the EU and bloody immigrants for everything and whipping up a ridiculous wartime myth of plucky old Engerland. Nobody was listening to those idiots back then. Now they're setting the political agenda and the Governement front bench might as well be a row of 20 Farages
Are you patriotic?
Nope. I just don't wish to give one side or the other more power.
I wouldn't fly a flag or any of that nonsense, and am pretty ashamed of our exploits in India, Ireland etc but I'd be lying if I said I didn't feel a surge of pride when I hear I Vow to Thee My Country or Jerusalem.
