Thinking about the Bank Holiday tomorrow, the reason for and tone of which I have misgivings about but that's been discussed elsewhere, got me thinking about my general feeling of 'patriotism'. Namely that I don't really have any. I'm neither particularly ashamed nor proud of being British, in the same way that I'm neither ashamed nor proud of being, I dunno, male, 6'1" or right-handed; they're all just accidents of birth.
That's just me though, clearly other people have much stronger feelings of patriotism. If that's you, why is that? Not knocking it, just a genuine question for discussion.
I've often wondered the same thing - I used to feel a sense of pride about Britain, and being British, but I couldn't really explain why. I suspect a nativité about British being "good" somehow.
Over recent years, I feel it much less, and have actually felt embarrassment now I see so much more of the entitlement and superiority that emanates from the UK...
Yes, I know who I like to win the world cup.
Think I used to be more patriotic, but Brexit has ripped most of it away from me. Not really bothered now about general patriotism now.
Still England/GB for sports though, that'll never change!
I'd like England to win the world cup, failing that any other European team. I mainly have a British passport as I'm too lazy to sort out a Spanish one 🙂
Yes, I know who I like to win the world cup.
Well, yeah, me too, and I'll cheer British athletes in the TdF (yes, including Froome 😉 ) or Olympics or whatever.
*Insert "Being Scottish is shite" trainspotting meme here*
Despite that all being entirely true, I'm unfeasibly proud to be Scottish and ambivalent to being British.
In almost every interaction i've had with people from other countries i've been warmly received as soon as they find out i'm Scottish and realise i'm not wearing a football shirt.
As to why that might be, setting aside Brexit / indyref and all the political shite, I think that it's societally acceptable to be fiercely proud of your nationality in pretty much every country in the world except England where that sort of thing has largely been misappropriated and misused by arseholes for the last 50 odd years.
Not in the slightest if anything I am slightly embarrassed to be British.
I was in the US not long after the brexit vote, Trump supporters were laughing at us.
I also really detest the war and empire jingo-ism; the empire was basically about exploitation.
I don't feel particularly patriotic and I think national borders are a bit of an anachronism in these global times. I certainly think there are many countries just over the water to the East who have their shit together very much more than we do.
Mind you, I've developed the same feeling towards sport. I don't support any particular team or individual or nation. I just enjoy watching good competition.
Born in England to Irish parents, completely fail the cricket test. Used to have a British passport for work purposes, didn’t use it for years and now it’s expired. Proud of my Irish roots, family and bits of my life centred there now. So patriotic just not really to Britain and certainly not to England.
I’m unfeasibly proud to be Scottish and ambivalent to being British.
Why?
Why?
See my previous edit but I think it's natural for people to be proud of their country, even if it is a bit shit. It's basic tribalism which is hard wired into people.
It's just the English who are weird about it and this seeps into and taints "Britishness" largely because the aforementioned arseholes use British and English as though they were freely interchangable.
Think I used to be more patriotic, but Brexit has ripped most of it away from me. Not really bothered now about general patriotism now.
Still England/GB for sports though, that’ll never change!
This sums it up for me.
slightly embarrassed to be British
Since the Brexshit disaster I have felt a tiny bit awkward on holiday abroad. I almost want to apologise to any European I meet and say "it is alright, though, I am not one of 'them'".
**** Brexit.
I have never understood why people are proud about where they were born. Pride in your own achievements is one thing, but pride in something you've had absolutely no hand in (see also: football teams 😂) just tells me you've set a very, very low bar for yourself. Actually, I do understand it 😃I’m unfeasibly proud to be Scottish
but pride in something you’ve had absolutely no hand in
I've spent the last 30 odd years building chunks of it, paying tax to support it and voting in its elections to shape its governance.
Admittedly, on an individual level these have had little effect, cumulatively with five million other folks, it's provided a marked difference.
Well, yeah, me too, and I’ll cheer British athletes in the TdF (yes, including Froome 😉 ) or Olympics or whatever.
I've had a word with myself and stopped doing this. I now am more interested in the success (I'm not sure I actually support in the strictest sense) sportsmen and women that I like the sporting style of or like their personality. I suspect there is a disproportionate number of brits on that list though simply because there is heavier press coverage of them so I am more aware of them.
Generally no, I don't think I am much of a patriot. I think something has to have a sense of identity for you to me able to be patriotic to it I just don't perceive Britain having that in any meaningful way. A common purpose or aim. If I was to use the B word it would show we clearly are split down the middle in terms of what we think it most important in our futures. Also, I personally see our multiculturalism as a huge positive but it also means we collectively don't have much of a common history or background either to get patriotic (or sentimental) about. I see that as a good thing.
Patriotism can also be a slippery slope to suppressing criticism that I can't abide. And a pair of blinkers for the wilfully ignorant. Finally I suspect patriotism is often just a convenient way to disguise self interest.
I am patriotic and in the main wouldn’t go against my country, supporting it especially through sports but also the little English-isms we have.
But as I’ve grown older I’ve come to identify that a lot of our quirks come from the vast mixing pot of our past, colonist, conquest and other things. Much of this education colours my celebration as I realise it’s cost to others. At the same time, those things weren’t caused by me or most of the current population of this island so I deplor the generalised hatred of the English that especially prevalent in some sports or Celtic culture.
Being English and celebrating it is a confusing political stance for me, I want to celebrate and support my country but much of history and politics and far right exposure causes me to remain introspective, yet disappointed in others view of today’s atypical Englishman.
There was a recent meme out “The English won’t be celebrating St George’s day for fear as being recognised as racist” - disappointingly sums it up for me, compare that to St Pats day and how that’s celebrated globally.
Nah not me.
Find it a bit weird tbh.
There was a time, around Euro 96, where there was tentatively emerging a more open, multicultural, inclusive, forward-looking 'British' identity that didn't revolve around the knuckle-dragging '2 world wars and a world cup' and images of Spitfires and endlessly banging on about 'the Spirit of the Blitz'.
Didn't last long, did it? Since then this country has been regressing at a rate of knots and Brexit has just catapulted us backward to tragic myths of some golden age of empire
My family's background is Irish Catholic, but I've never really identified with it. Always thinking of myself as English. Not any more. I see the attitudes of myself and my family mirrored more in Dublin than in Engerland. I was one generation too late for an Oirish Passport. My parents have sorted theirs. I don't even identify as Irish, or anything specific. I just regard the whole ideas of borders and nationalism in a modern globalized world as inexplicable and hopelessly outdated
I expect to spend tomorrow cringing at the wallowing in 'We'll meet Again' flag-waving nostalgia
Its absolutely pathetic and I loathe it!
As for the holiday tomorrow, I think it should be celebrated as the defeat of a right wing fascist movement that could easily have spread across all of Europe. A victory that was achieved through cooperation with other nations, and could only have been achieved in that manner.
I think the jingoistic bullshit merchants need to be called out on their own ridiculous nationalism, though, along the lines of not repeating the whole experience with us as the 'bad guys' this time, just because it seems clever and new to chest thump and wave Union Jacks around.
Are you patriotic?
Maybe, maybe not, not really sure.
I know longer feeling any patriotic feelings at all, i have fought for my country, but no longer like what our country is becoming at all. We are becoming a very divided country, not helped by the media, everything is "cyclist vs driver", "north vs south", "rich vs poor", "pro vs remain".
This lockdown period, Brexit and current political climate, has proven that unfortunately, half of the people in the UK are good, decent people, but there is a very high percentage of lazy, uncaring self-centred d*ckheads.
There are parts of the UK are some of the most beautiful places in the world to travel through, but i can really take or leave the UK as whole now, my wife is very close to her family, if not, i would leave tomorrow.
that's just tribalism based on how the world has been carved up in years gone by. Thinking you're great but someone who happened to be born in the next town over is a ****er and must be killed 😂 Totally arbitrary.I’ve spent the last 30 odd years building chunks of it, paying tax to support it and voting in its elections to shape its governance.
Like Binners I find there's a certain group of folk who've mythologised the 2nd WW to the point of it becoming something of a stick to beat people who don't share their singular view of it, that I'll go out of my way to avoid generally.
Personally I'm "a bit" patriotic in that I'll stick up for my side in any discussion with a group of friends (none of whom are from the UK) but that's a bit of light-hearted banter that we've developed. I'm not normally a flag waving, made in Britain die hard though. It's very much like families, there's folk you're related to that you hold dear and are proud of, and there's folk who you avoid sitting anywhere near at family gatherings.
In general I like the country i live in. I dislike the country i was born in but never lived in it.
I dislike flag waving and patriotism. Flags serve a purpose in identifying the likelihood of a wally at ground level.
And I really dislike VE day. I'm happy to celebrate a war ending but Victory has no place in that sentiment, there were way too many losers on all sides to suggest there were victors.
By all means be proud about where you live, but don't think that you have some god given ability or right because of where your mum squeezed you out.
Its absolutely pathetic and I loathe it!
Get on board young man.
https://twitter.com/hannahrosewoods/status/1258345696618561538
In a flag waving, jingoistic way, no. I'm a republican, anti fascist, socially liberal, economically interventionist. So most of the things stereotypical patriots aren't. But....
Am I glad I live in country that takes individual freedoms, workers rights, the rule of law, education, academia and health care (at least comparatively) seriously. Yes. I am. Even if these things have taken a knock recently I still think the trajectory is recoverable. (If I'm wrong we're ****ed, admittedly).
As for the holiday tomorrow, I think it should be
celebratedcommemorated as the defeat of a right wing fascist movement that could easily have spread across all of Europe. A victory that was achieved through cooperation with other nations, and could only have been achieved in that manner.
Agreed with the one tiny amendment I have suggested.
Mind you, I have something of a bias - my German mum. If I'd had my act together years ago I could have sorted myself dual nationality and possibly emigrated. The last few years here in Blighty have once again made me wonder if I should have.
It's graduallly been declining over a number of years for me.... the final bullet was having the only option of having either Johnson or Corbyn. How low have we stooped.
There was a time, around Euro 96, where there was tentatively emerging a more open, multicultural, inclusive, forward-looking ‘British’ identity that didn’t revolve around the knuckle-dragging ‘2 world wars and a world cup’ and images of Spitfires and endlessly banging on about ‘the Spirit of the Blitz’.
Agree, I would say that around 2000 was peak Britain. Since then it has been going backwards with more narrow mindedness (racism, sexism etc,.) and generally a less nice place to live.
I have never understood patriotism. So what if I happened to be born in a particular country, the fact that people care so much about that is the cause of a lot of the worlds problems.
... I was in the US not long after the brexit vote, Trump supporters were laughing at us.
Trump supporters laugh at everyone, but they are doing that thing where they just laugh anyway, but don't actually understand the joke.
As to why that might be, setting aside Brexit / indyref and all the political shite, I think that it’s societally acceptable to be fiercely proud of your nationality in pretty much every country in the world except England where that sort of thing has largely been misappropriated and misused by arseholes for the last 50 odd years.
You obviously don't know much about Spanish politics / culture, then 🙂 (Not that there's any reason you should do, obviously!) In Spain waving the Spanish flag is a pretty right-wing thing to do, the left can only just about manage it for sports. And even then begrudgingly. And that's without getting into the mess of Catalan and Basque nationalism...
I'd agree with Binners mid 90's point. Since then, post Iraq (barring a up-swing in 2012) whatever patriotism I might have once felt has been in decline.
Harking back to events 75 years ago, viewed through the lens of an imaginary post-Brexit society does us no favours whatsoever.
Shame I dont have any Irish ancestry! Spent a some time working in Denmark last year. They seem to have a pretty good handle on understated pride in the place they happen to have been born.
I'm with Binners on this one.
The whole WW2 thing is pathetic. Britain didnt even win the war, it was the allies, with much bigger participants than us. And even so, its totally irrelevant to Brexit or Covid 19 yet this constant harking back and drawing parallels is pathetic and used by idiots and politicians to serve their own ends.
Nope, I consider myself a citizen of Europe, and by extension the world.
I'd happily give up my UK passport tomorrow and get out of this godforsaken, jingoistic shithole that we currently call home.
I'm a citizen of the world, mainly because Theresa May pissed me off when she claimed that meant I was a citizen of nowhere. I love the UK because of my links to it, but at the end of the day I'm just another one of the 7 billion hairless monkeys holding onto to this rock as it hurtles through the vast emptiness of space.
And Brexit and the way ingerland votes has broken my heart.
You obviously don’t know much about Spanish politics / culture, then
Nope. That's why I said....
pretty much every country in the world
Having said that, every Spaniard I've ever met ( a limited sample, admittedly) has been proud to be Spanish in the wider context of the world.
I'm trying to remember a quote by Reginald D Hunter that went something along the lines of
Patriotism is the unwavering belief of a countries superiority simply by virtue of you being born there.
Seems pretty messed up why you look at it like that.
As above, I feel a bit awkward being a Brit abroad now. Harry Enfield used to do a character, a German guy who kept apologising for the war. I feel like that about Brexit.
However, there are a lot worse places I could have been born and no matter how bad it gets here, at least I'm not American.
Couldn't agree with binners more!
Wonder how many of the flag wavers tomorrow will give a thought to the war dead from other nations or their descendants who they now demonise?
Having said that, every Spaniard I’ve ever met ( a limited sample, admittedly) has been proud to be Spanish in the wider context of the world.
My wife is Basque. No they're not.
My wife is Basque. No they’re not.
I've never met your wife.
I have one of these now but it's made me more proud to be English than I have ever been. I suggest moving to another country if you want to feel the love for your homeland again! (whilst at the same time seeing how much better they do some things 'over here')
Nah. I used to be. We have a Union Flag tucked away somewhere upstairs Which we bought for the 2012 Olympics but I won’t be draping that out of the window anytime soon.
It seems to me that the flag has now become a symbol of rebellion against the EU and is generally flown by people who still think we are a force to be reckoned with around the world, instead of the laughing stock we are quickly becoming.
Patriotism is the unwavering belief of a countries superiority simply by virtue of you being born there.
I tend to look on it from entirely the other perspective.
I've lived here for nigh on half a century and despite my poor background and, as an individual, my complete irrelevance to the nation as a whole, it's fed and clothed me, provided me with a safe environment to live and work in , treated me when I was sick, provided me with higher education for free and will do the same for my kids.
Why wouldn't I be proud of that?
One of my work colleagues is a proper white supremacist english patriot. It goes all the way back to the crusades, and he takes genuine pride in the fact that our ancestors routed the muslim heathens in the middle ages. It's baffling. I've tried time and again to point out that he has as much connection with all that as he does with the samurai in Japan but he won't have it. He's descended from a race of plucky religious warriors who spread their divine provenance to the rest of Europe and the holy lands, and he's damn well proud of it. I have no other explanation for it than it's like a mental illness.
