there’s also a massive assumption that a vote for SNP, PC, SF or even Reform is an endorsement of their views on sovereignty
I don't think that p.o.v holds water for Sinn Fein.
W
there’s also a massive assumption that a vote for SNP, PC, SF or even Reform is an endorsement of their views on sovereignty
Why single out those particular parties?
You could equally well say there's a massive assumption that a vote for Tories, Labour , Libdems, is an endorsement of their views on the union.
My take (and I am making this up on the fly) as an english speaking person born-bred & now living again just over the border in Wales to a local father and a mother from Norfolk! Maybe the real driver has far less to do with nationalism/populism in the Celtic nations but more to do with the fact that de-centralised government really does benefit the people. Maybe there is a wish for more power to be given to the governing bodies of the satellite nations rather than a strong desire for independence. Personally I feel as a tribal species we can intrinsically see the benefit of more localised governance with real power. Something the regions of England would also benefit from. Just Wales NI and Scotland have been fortunate enough to have a real taste of it so are pushing for more.
Maybe it really is time to explore a more federal model for the whole of the UK?
EDIT PS I voted for Plaid. I asked google who to vote for based on 3 issues. Support for family farms, more autonomy for the Assembly, and a push to return to the EU. Plaid was the clear winner....
Maybe there is a wish for more power to be given to the governing bodies of the satellite nations rather than a strong desire for independence.
I'm not sure there's any strong desire for independence in NI, it's a strong desire for a united Ireland which is completely different.
Started out almost making sense and then greatbeardedone went way off track...
However, I need to revisit Space:1999 as not watched it for a while.
I'm not sure there's a huge difference between ultra-nationalists of any nation: they all hate people who are different to themselves and the only difference is that hatred of the English is legitimised and encouraged in Scotland and Wales.
It's hard to imagine anyone with much understanding of Scottish politics would post such a thing.
Scottish independence is substantially based on the idea of not being dragged down by an insular isolationist Little England but instead positioning itself as a member of a community of like-minded nations in the EU.
Of course I've no doubt there are some anti-English racists in the mix, but it's far from the core.
Of course I've no doubt there are some anti-English racists in the mix,
And yet your previous paragraph comes across so positively about England.
The thing is if you arent lazy and announce all those nasty English types who voted for brexit are just racist idiots then you would see plenty of arguments which heavily overlap with those deployed by the pro independence movements in the UK.
To take Welshfarmers points. obviously need to leave the latter out but to take the first two.
A firm promise from the brexiteers was by leaving the EU we would be able to better support the farmers.
"more autonomy for the Assembly" - Seems to be based on "localised governance with real power.". This was of course the key selling point for the brexiteers. Return power from the EU.
why you find it nessasary i dont understand
Because I prefer fact to fiction. However I do understand why you keep deluding yourself just like many people who are deluded into thinking Farage is standing up against the elites.
Scottish independence is substantially based on the idea of not being dragged down by an insular isolationist Little England but instead positioning itself as a member of a community of like-minded nations in the EU.
Cobblers, the SNP were popular before the right wing thickos voted for Brexit.
brexit was not the start of isolationist little england
Cobblers, the SNP were popular before the right wing thickos voted for Brexit.
Regardless of it's long term popularity, I'd say the state of play in England right now plays a pretty sizable part in it remaining so. The SNP has been in power here since 2007...coming up for 20 years. That's a hell of long time in politics and you have to look hard (well, not that hard - you have to ignore Wales!) to find a party in power for that long in a truly democratic nation. And it's not like they've not had a fair share of nause ups in the last few years with in-party scandals and mismanagement of some big projects. The brexit vote then the rise Johnston, the imposition of Truss and now the rise of Farage a real possibility he'll be the next PM is just making the exploration of the feasibility of independence (and improved unification with Europe) more and more appealing, with voters prepared to hold their nose and continue voting SNP when otherwise they'd have moved on.
Feisty little thread this. Excellent work.
Well, I may have committed several acts of hyperbole, but we can’t deny the connection between the change in the financial system, post 1969, and a massive upswing in SNP votes.
why you find it nessasary i dont understand
Because I prefer fact to fiction. However I do understand why you keep deluding yourself just like many people who are deluded into thinking Farage is standing up against the elites.
Whose fact, where is this fact coming from?
If it helps, my father was a fairly accomplished political scientist (think proto-John Curtice) and dealt with those attitude surveys and also voting behaviour.
He would have agreed with @dissonance that the attitudes espoused were not significantly different in Scotland and England.
But he would also have agreed with @tjagain that voting behaviour was different.
Being an academic he would then have uttered something like “interesting” and accepted both as true, a cat that is both alive and dead even after observation.
Me, I reckon folk lie on surveys. Didn’t they used to say they’d prefer it if McDonalds offered more salads? But I’m an engineer - what do I know.
Me, I reckon folk lie on surveys. Didn’t they used to say they’d prefer it if McDonalds offered more salads?
revealed preference
the end of the uk is inevitable.
Methinks thou dost protest too much. Neither the SNP or Plaid ran particularly independence driven campaigns, both focused more on "Scotland/Wales run by Scots/Welsh people for the benefit of Scots/Welsh people" Swinney has suggested that there 'might' be a case for a referendum in 2028 in post election speeches, but there hasn't been a majority for independence for years now, and apart from a few die-hards most folks realise they're just saying it for effect - like playing a fan favourite song as an encore. Plaid were tightly focussed on getting a 'fairer' settlement- especially rail provision after they were ****ed by HS2.
I think the dream of small independent nations thriving in an international climate so vastly different than the last independence referendum is so obviously busted, that not even Swinney is convinced by his own rhetoric.
anti english sentiment is far lessnow and thd nationalist vision is oneof inclusively
Your own obvious anti-English sentiment notwithstanding, presuambly?
I'm not sure there's a huge difference between ultra-nationalists of any nation: they all hate people who are different to themselves and the only difference is that hatred of the English is legitimised and encouraged in Scotland and Wales.
There is only one ultra-nationalist party in the UK. The one that talks about "Stop the Boats", the one that suggested putting "detention centres" in parts of the country that didn't vote for them, the one that has councilors who already been condemned for outright racism, oh and they've started to throw some religious nationalism in for good measure.
Guess what it ain't Plaid or the SNP
I think the dream of small independent nations thriving in an international climate so vastly different than the last independence referendum is so obviously busted, that not even Swinney is convinced by his own rhetoric.
classic little englander sentiment
loads of small nations survive and flourish and independence polls around 50% in Scotland.
there us no doubt an independent scotland would flourish.
we can’t deny the connection between the change in the financial system, post 1969, and a massive upswing in SNP votes.
I can't deny that could be a possibility, though it's not a link I've ever made, nor heard folk talk about. Perhaps I've not given it enough thought. I suspect it's just one of a number of different reasons, including the fall of empire and North Sea oil. I also think there was also a general sense of "awakening" when an increasing number of folk started questioning the status quo and maybe just becoming more sceptical of the messages promoted by an English establishment media. The continued success of many "small independent nations" in the EU has also shown that there's no need to continue to be part of the UK so every time there's a difference in outlook/policy this is just emphasised.
Regardless, I'm of the belief that I will not see an independent Scotland. I mean, it's possible that a Reform UK government will finally provide the impetus, I just don't see it happening with the current leadership of the SNP and any alternative party/movement would take too long to build.
classic little englander sentiment
Mate, you live in Edinburgh. It's only significant identifier is that it's residents would really rather like it to be the Cotswolds . Frankly, if you've nothing useful to contribute other than insults, perhaps don't contribute?
no anti english sentiment from me.
Apart from "Little Englander" thrown around like it's an insult? You're the only person on this thread using language like that.
there us no doubt an independent scotland would flourish.
At the risk of pointing out the obvious that doesnt seem to be a position even you hold.
Unless you are arguing against joining the EU which would be rather revolutionary then you arent arguing for a truly independent Scotland but instead at best a partially independent one and, when you look at numbers of seats etc, one with probably less influence than in the UK.
Something I find fascinating is how closely comments on this thread match those from the brexiteers.
yes independent in the eu. are you teally claiming Germany is not an independent nation?
brexit is a 100% reverse sentiment from Scottish independence.
how you can deny the long established very different voting patterns is weird. this is a proven fact of a large political difference.
Yes, I read (quickly) that piece of work and a couple of others. Although they do outline voting attitudes and give some indication of Britishness/Welshness/Scottishness and voting it doesn't seem to indicate that the nations in this "United Kingdom" will be herding parts of the population to the borders.
Apart from "Little Englander" thrown around like it's an insult? You're the only person on this thread using language like that.
Little Englander isn't thrown about like it's an insult. It is an insult.
The Cambridge online dictionary defines "Little Englander" as "an English person who thinks England is better than all other countries, and that England should only work together with other countries when there is an advantage for England in doing so".[11] The term has been used in a derogatory manner for English people who are perceived as being excessively nationalistic or xenophobic.[12] It has also been applied to English opponents of globalism, multilateralism, and internationalism.[12][13] Since the 2010s, especially post-Brexit,[5] the term has gained popularity as a derogatory way to describe English nationalists or xenophobes.[2] For this reason, it is similar to the insult "gammon", which has been used in British political culture since 2012.[7]
Unfortunately it also accurately reflects the views of the majority of the English voting population, given the results of the Brexit referendum and almost every other general election since then. You could argue that the most recent general election wasn't, but then you would have to ignore all the concessions Labour made to attract Little Englanders.
Little Englanders struggle to see things from anything other than an English-centric point of view. You only have to look at some of the responses in this thread to see that even English people who consider themselves progressive still hold more than a bit of the Little Englander perspective when it comes to how they view Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland.
Yes, I read (quickly) that piece of work and a couple of others. Have you bothered to read it?
Uh huh you have read all the studies over the years they have been doing it quickly?
loads of small nations survive and flourish and independence polls around 50% in Scotland.
there us no doubt an independent scotland would flourish.
I'd be interested if you could give examples that do it successfully with socialist policies? Most of the ones that spring to mind for me are in some way reliant on low corporate taxes to attract international businesses to headquarter there. Which is fine and dandy for those doing it, but an unfair race to the bottom in the end.
how you can deny the long established very different voting patterns is weird. this is a proven fact of a large political difference.
But if your argument is that Scotland is more left leaning than England, how do you rationalize what just happened in Wales? Do you think the Welsh socialist vote a fraud compared to Scotland's honestly held beliefs?
Little Englanders struggle to see things from anything other than an English-centric point of view.
Uh huh since of course its the English fault isnt it?
We have a bunch of Scottish exceptionalists displaying all the same habits as the the brexiteer exceptionalists. You can switch out England/Scotland and EU/England and you get a perfect match.
The problem though is because there is, as per the reform thread, a generally lazy view of why people voted for brexit it means you fail to see how closely the more complicated position matches your own.
I think, if I had a general criticism of English people (and, of course, generaliisms can only be applied to populations in general and should never be ascribed to individuals, just thought I'd make that clear before people start inevitably getting upset), that criticism would be that they have a tendency to be tone deaf and can often put their foot in their mouths because of a lack of awareness of other perspectives.
This:
Uh huh since of course its the English fault isnt it?
We have a bunch of Scottish exceptionalists displaying all the same habits as the the brexiteer exceptionalists. You can switch out England/Scotland and EU/England and you get a perfect match.
The problem though is because there is, as per the reform thread, a generally lazy view of why people voted for brexit it means you fail to see how closely the more complicated position matches your own.
is a text book example of English exceptionalist attitudes leading to quite spectacularly ignorant statements.
English people comparing anything to Brexit when England voted for Brexit and then imposed it on Scotland and NI is very tone deaf and, if you choose to look at it for the poetry of absurdity it is rather than getting insulted by the ignorance, absolute comedy gold
Denmark and Scotland have comparable area and population. One thrives as an independent nation in the EU.
Wales and Slovenia have comparable area and population. One thrives as an independent nation in the EU
English people comparing anything to Brexit when England voted for Brexit and then imposed it on Scotland and NI is very tone deaf
Nope. That you are incapable of understanding the similarities simply shows your own limitations which, as with many nationalists of any type, you then project onto others.
I do love how Wales handily vanishes from view so you can concentrate on those nasty English.
[EDIT: point's already been made, ignore]
English people comparing anything to Brexit when England voted for Brexit and then imposed it on Scotland and NI is very tone deaf and, if you choose to look at it for the poetry of absurdity it is rather than getting insulted by the ignorance, absolute comedy gold
The vote was democratic, the 1.02million Scottish people who voted leave are no more or less counted than those in Stoke or Sunderland.
Denmark and Scotland have comparable area and population. One thrives as an independent nation in the EU. Wales and Slovenia have comparable area and population. One thrives as an independent nation in the EU
Fair, although Denmark currently has a 47% Tax/GDP ratio, the UK's is currently 27%. We probably need to get used to the idea of paying more tax if we want to fund services properly, but I'm not sure we have the stomach for that.
English people comparing anything to Brexit when England voted for Brexit and then imposed it on Scotland and NI is very tone deaf
And asserting that "England voted for Brexit and then imposed it on Scotland and NI" is somewhat dismissive (and frankly, offensive) when three quarters of England didn't.
As regards Brexit vs Scottish/Welsh independence, both have an underlying theme of "taking back control" so it's easy to view them in the same light. At the moment though, the desire to do so is driven by very different factors. Brexit was, undoubtedly, very inward focussed and it can't be denied that immigration was a huge factor. That's currently the polar opposite of those seeking Scottish independence - not to say that couldn't change in future given the same media focus.
But if your argument is that Scotland is more left leaning than England, how do you rationalize what just happened in Wales? Do you think the Welsh socialist vote a fraud compared to Scotland's honestly held beliefs?
Reform got a higher share of the vote in Wales than in England
A question for the non-Reform/non-Brexit folk living in England; if you had the opportunity to leave a UK dominated by Farage and his supporters, would you not be tempted? Perhaps you satisfied that this is a short term anomaly and things will improve if you just wait long enough?
I was under the impression both Scotland and Wales rejected labour and Tories but also reform, they wanted a left leaning alternative so SNP and Plaid got votes. It's less rejecting the English and the UK but more a rejection of far right politics....
Brexit was, undoubtedly, very inward focussed
Depends on the target audience. There was lots of emphasis about building relationships outside of the EU eg "Singapore on Thames" and all the associated rubbish.
and it can't be denied that immigration was a huge factor
Where it gets messy though is what that actually means. Is it just immigration or people seeing their local area change rapidly around them? some of the brexit hotspots were those with areas of relatively low diversity historically which then saw a large increase in 10 years or so. Thats going to impact on peoples sense of identity. If an area was already diverse then the impact would be lessened.
This would be something which would impact England more than Scotland given the relative immigration levels. However it is worth noting the response in some areas towards increased English migration to see a not dissimilar pattern about loss of identity etc.
Then there are the commonwealth citizens and the campaigns targeting them. For example studies suggest they had some success with the targeting those of South Asian descent with the argument that cutting back on EU migration would result in immigration increasing from elsewhere and that the commonwealth would be the obvious source (a rare example of brexiteers delivering!)
