Forgive me, I appreciate there’s a loot of political chatter at the moment, but it’s all centred on individuals, parties or specific events.
I want to step back for a second and look at the slightly bigger UK position.
The SNP is the biggest party at Holyrood (and there’s an independence majority if you include the Greens), Sinn Féin at Stormont, and Plaid Cymru in Wales.
If you regard Reform as a British / English nationalist party (and that’s not a tremendous leap) all the nations of the UK are on nationalist / separatist paths.
Does this process, started in recent times to some extent with the Brexit campaign, end with the break up of the UK, or is there some sort of turning point ahead?
And yes this will be baseless pontification to a large extent I know.
You'd think the disaster that is Brexit is a sign that it's mad to try to go it alone at the moment. I'm not sure there's a huge difference between ultra-nationalists of any nation: they all hate people who are different to themselves and the only difference is that hatred of the English is legitimised and encouraged in Scotland and Wales.
The only difference between us all is a crumbling wall and I've always seen myself as British over English.
Does seem to be going that way, doesn't it?
I like the idea of Scottish independence, but none of the arguments for it from the SNP have had any real substance if be willing to hang my coat on...all high level stuff lacking any real detail of how - which puts me off.
The election results (which I'm not really understanding) seems to be suggesting a couple of things - people are tired of the lack of oomph and commitment from the 2 main parties, so people have voted elsewhere...or (which is more alarming in my opinion), people really are wanting to be incredibly narrow-minded and think Reform has some great ideas and that is what they want the country to become.
Labour need a serious shake and start improving if they want to stay in power, SNP has grown lazy and now just expect to be in power without really sorting many things. Wales appears to also be suggesting they've had enough.
If you look at the results with nothing else known other than the results, it does suggest we all want to be separate countries doing our own things...
Those in power need to be remembering that position isn't a given and can be changed reasonably quickly and they are supposed to be working for the greater good and all the people.
Sorry, rambling on...not quite sure where all that came from as I generally try to avoid politics as it tends to wind me up - as I disagree with a lot of the decisions but also get annoyed that I've not taken more interest to get better understanding!
When people are under threat they withdraw and trust less. When people are secure, content and optimistic they collaborate and start out with trust.
Works on an individual and a collective psyche levels, I would guess.
Q is, where is the threat really coming from from? (I would say it's economic/security related and that's what I was getting into on the Reform threads, it's the driver of populism)
When you look back at UK and the "empire"it seems pretty obvious that it has just been dominated by a tiny fraction of the population. To the detriment of many if not most people. I still feel that English language and culture is valued above all others in the UK . Look at the variation in the legal status of the various languages that are/were all indigenous to the different nations that make up the UK
The SNP is the biggest party at Holyrood (and there’s an independence majority if you include the Greens),Sinn Féin at Stormont, andPlaid Cymru in Wales.
If you regard Reform as a British / English nationalist party (and that’s not a tremendous leap) all the nations of the UK are on nationalist / separatist paths.
I think there's an element to that, but perhaps the other way around?
People have generally been getting more fed-up with the Labour and Conservative parties since the Thatcher era?
In Scotland there was an easy alternative in the SNP. I don't for a moment follow the logic that some Scottish nationalist espouse that Scotland is somehow more left leaning than the rest of the UK. It was just a matter of timing that Scotland's Protest vote went to centre-left independence party. I'd even hypothesise that the whole independence movement is based on that protest against Westminster's main parties, if it wasn't for the exponential fracturing of the 2 party system would Scottish independence be about as mainstream as the movement to make Yorkshire independent?
Wales will be an interesting case study as it feels like it's 20 years behind that political curve having only just fallen out of love with labour. Plaid or Reform will have to prove they can actually achieve something as they are in competition with each other, something the SNP never had to deal with.
Oh for god's sake none of the Celtic nations want what England has, just learn to stand on your own feet and stop ripping the pish.
Wales is an odd one I agree. Ethnically the south of Wales is more AngloSaxon while north Wales is British (in the sense of Celtic, like Dumfries and Galloway, or Cornwall, or Brittany).
It may have been that tension that held the SNP-esque nationalism back until an Anglo-nationalist movement arose with Reform. Worth checking whether ethnicity and Plaid-v-Reform voting geographies correlate.
I have virtually no evidence of course and this is idle, slightly pessimistic, musing.
I'm not sure there's a huge difference between ultra-nationalists of any nation: they all hate people who are different to themselves and the only difference is that hatred of the English is legitimised and encouraged in Scotland and Wales.
Ha...Ha, c'mon man....get over it as that is not my experience, but if you wish to create division then carry on with such a trope thrown at us
The English regions are in a bigger mess than the Celtic nations
We are countries, not kingdoms.
We don't legitimise hating English, what drivel.
You'd think the disaster that is Brexit is a sign that it's mad to try to go it alone at the moment.
You put your finger on the problem ... "You'd think ..."
Not forgetting the subsidies will stop.
Not forgetting the subsidies will stop.
Good, about time the Westminster parliament paid full costs for their food/drink.
😉
And your use of "subsidies" as a derogative term is very reform(y)
the only difference is that hatred of the English is legitimised and encouraged in Scotland and Wales.
I know there's some friendly banter between the nations, especially during sporting events, but to dress it up as hatred is quite frankly crazy. And legitimised and encouraged? Really? What bizarre things to say.
We are countries, not kingdoms.
We don't legitimise hating English, what drivel.
sorry Matt, I was playing off United Kingdom, United Kingdoms.
As for hating the English, though I’m Glasgow born and educated, I’ve worked in Yorkshire for 30 years plus, and I’m married to an English lass I met 30 plus years ago. I certainly don’t hate the English nor do the other Scots I know.
Except the English rugby team under Clive Woodward - very effective but oh so boring. How could you not hate that? 😜
@igm, neither the SNP or PC are “ethnic” movements in any way. There are ethno nationalists in both Scotland and Wales of course, but the main parties do not promote or particularly benefit from that. They are both civic nationalist parties through and through.
And your use of "subsidies" as a derogative term is very reform(y)
Shame you took it that way, but it is a fact. It was meant to point out the risk of unintended consequences.
Just look in to the history of, and the formula used for the Scottish subsidy, meant as a temporary and generous gesture that became permanent.
I spent the evening in Dolgellau yesterday.
Was absolutely delighted to talk with the local Plaid Cymru supporters who were, understandably, celebrating their result.
All speaking Welsh with one another.
Not only welcoming of a couple from the English side of the Marches, but genuinely pleased to have our company ( Lord knows why as I was six pints in ). Domestic pride without a hint of dislike, patriotism at its simplest.
Why do folk think that there’s a need for this to be confused with confrontation?
Usual 80:20 rules apply in my view.
I'm not sure there's a huge difference between ultra-nationalists of any nation: they all hate people who are different to themselves and the only difference is that hatred of the English is legitimised and encouraged in Scotland and Wales.
this is completely false. as an englishman with an english name and accent i tell you iswrong. anti english sentiment is far lessnow and thd nationalist vision is oneof inclusively
Scotland has been diverging politically and socially for decades.
its very obvious when you live here.
the end of the uk is inevitable. how long it takes and how difficult it is is in Westminsters hands. but its happening
@igm, neither the SNP or PC are “ethnic” movements in any way. There are ethno nationalists in both Scotland and Wales of course, but the main parties do not promote or particularly benefit from that. They are both civic nationalist parties through and through.
Agreed. Was the slogan not “it’s not where you’re from, it’s where we’re going”? Something like that.
But I think there may be a correlation between the areas where the old ethnicities are stronger and voting patterns. Now that may be cultural, or reflect industrial or work patterns rather than where your parents were born.
Perhaps it is best thought of as cultural echos rather than anything else.
For amusement in this discussion (and amusement only) political surveys used to record a slightly surprising ethnicity / nationality as the largest minority in much (possibly all) of Scotland - obvious really when you think about it, English.
Equally if you have a Scots accent and an Italian name, you’re probably from Glasgow. Now that one is an echo, caused by the catholic infrastructure that the Irish set up in Glasgow. Again, obvious really.
But the other thing about echos is they do fade eventually. As they should.
it was Bashir Ahmed the first muslim elected to holyrood. he said " its not where i come from as a person. its where we are going as a nation"
@tjagain - thank you. Your memory surpasses mine.
It was an emotional moment when I first heard that.
The English regions are in a bigger mess than the Celtic nations
Do you mean Germany, Austria, etc?
its very obvious when you live here.
And yet when we look at the social attitude survey it isnt to any real degree especially when we take into account all the other factors.
I would suggest you are selective in who you interact with. I am guessing you dont spend much time at a rangers game for example?
Looking at bluesky today there was certainly reform levels of frothing hatred aimed towards England/Westminster. Admittedly it could just be foreign actors/bots trying to stir dissent since there is good evidence for them pushing the Scottish independence cause. Rather than that as an excuse perhaps it might be worth asking why.
I would suggest you are selective in who you interact with.
Everyone is at the end of the day @dissonance
compared to the 70s the anti english sentiment is hugely decreased.
one ofmy best pals is a big rangers fan
our voting patterns show a very different voting. tories have not been the biggest party since the 50s. 70 ish percent leftish vote. reform got half the votes they do in england. not one constituency voted for brexit with 60+ % remain.
its a different country with a different ethos and is diverging all the time
rangers game
Wrong team for anti unionist fervor
deleted
rangers fans are the unionists are they not?
Ermm yes. My point was that how you view Scottish social attitudes might be the equivalent of standing outside a Library and asking if someone liked books (admittedly given how libraries have changed its no longer such a good example of how you can bias a survey).
Luckily we have professionals who do carry out surveys of social attitudes across the UK and, well, they dont agree with you.
If you think Celtic supporters don't hate the English you must be deaf and blind
If you think Celtic supporters don't hate the English you must be deaf and blind
Well from a contractualby obliged Celtic fan in Ireland we've got over that. We've got our own issues to worry about.
We are quite indifferent with the English too much history too forget.
Show us where the nasty man in a kilt touched you.
You missed out “on this doll”. Your post makes it sound like you want to flapperon to show you his privates.
interesting topic, I think as the the changing global order continues to destabilize the West we will begin to see more and more questions being raised about the breakup of national unions and federations and as with brexit, the people who can game the system the best will win.
Luckily we have professionals who do carry out surveys of social attitudes across the UK and, well, they dont agree with you.
apart from the fact its obvious from the voting patterns over many decades . its obvious that rhere is a difference in social attitudes. but you can pretend there is not if you want. why you find it nessasary i dont understand
I've read some absolute shit on here over the years but this must top the lot.
Ignorance speaks a thousand words, usually starting with personal insults.
Ok back it up tell us where/when "hatred of the English is legitimised and encouraged in Scotland and Wales."
Growing up at the outer rim of the British Empire (Scotland), we observed the fragmentation of the British Isles gaining momentum in the early 1970’s.
A lot of Scottish people were actually keen supporters of small c conservatism, with labour strongly represented in the industrial heartlands.
The change started with Callaghans govt changing the financial system.
Up until 1969, interest rates were low. It was easy for entrepreneurs to borrow money.
The city of London then became a hub for foreign capital movements at high interest rates.
This made it harder for domestic uk firms to invest in their workforce and r&d.
At the outer rim, it became all too apparent that capita and labour were being irrevocably sucked into London.
Commensurate with this exodus, this brain drain, was an influx of predominantly English ‘White Settlers’, purchasing rural properties.
This caused resentment, not just in Scotland, but in Wales too (remember the incineration of an English holiday home in 1976).
The English were quick to point out how ‘poor’ Scotland was (and never NI!), but would soon undergo the same fate in the 1980’s.
So, if the English encountered animosity, it was merely a harbinger of an endemic economic turmoil that would afflict the entire UK, with the Home Counties largely exempt.
By the end of the 1980’s, nearly a million Scot’s had ‘emigrated’ to London as accountants and lawyers, disguised as football supporters.
That gives a sense of the gravity exerted by the black financial triangle of London/ Frankfurt/ Paris, as capital swirled between them.
So, we have a picture of London and then everywhere else collapsing into it. Whether you’re in Truro or Tobermory, you’ve got rural depopulation followed by an influx of tourists.
But why did London and every other country on the planet follow this model?
One theory is that the global elites fear an asteroid colliding with planet earth in 2076.
With water on the surface of the moon, as well as countless supplies of Titanium, the plan was to hollow out parts of the moon, making it effectively a spaceship that can propel itself far beyond the solar system.
The City of London is a great means to siphon capital, reinvesting it in this company and then that until they have the means to mine the moon safely (as in not return to earth with some virus that has lain dormant for billions of years).
it’s not just the city of London , every part of the cost of living, including the hike in your energy bills are also going towards ‘space bonds’.
Thats why any talk of tackling the cost of living has to address the elephant in the room…the city of London.
Theres no point in Farage talking about uk financial sovereignty when he himself benefits enormously from his money changing hands, sans ‘border controls’.
So, effectively the planet is being sucked dry to build a Death Star for the global elites to escape in.
All the while, all that capital gets reinvested in crap industries, like meat overproduction, car overproduction. This may be due to the elites not being able to figure out how to sufficiently supply the population.
e.g. I was in Ibiza last year. I decided to buy some new underwear. No equivalent to TK MAXX or Primark in Ibiza town.
you’d expect our then leaders (the EU) to ensure sufficient infrastructure to facilitate the movement of their workforce, without having to tear round town in search of fundamental stuff.
My proposal is that we take a metaphorical hammer to the c of l, and also re-legalise the production of cannabis hemp.
establishing cannabis cafes would revitalise town centres.
Growing hemp everywhere would reverse the environmental degradation of centuries of moorland pheasant use.
more importantly, re-establishing hemp cultivation in these far flung parts of the uk would give the most deprived in the uk an opportunity to reconnect with nature.
the problem that successive uk govt faced when trying to address regional disparities was to lure some multinational company with huge financial incentives (cathedrals in the desert), only for them to up sticks to another country offering better financial inducements.
so hemp production would establish a bulkhead in these rural areas, a source of financial stability for future repopulation.
and that’s Sunday😊
ps. All the abuse (anti English, etc), comes from people who drink alcohol.
the acid heads/ pot heads are refreshingly amicable!😂😂😂
as for bases on the moon, one look at the moons surface would be enough of a hint to go underground
Meanwhile in the c of l
Notwithstanding that the entire premise of the question is based on a false hypothesis, that Scottish (and other) Nationalism is based on a hatred of the English, there’s also a massive assumption that a vote for SNP, PC, SF or even Reform is an endorsement of their views on sovereignty. Many people will have voted for those parties as a protest against the two party politics of Westminster, as a least worst option, or because there is simply no opposition offering something other than more of the same.
Im convinced there’s room for a new party in Scotland who would be a credible SNP opposition that actually has policies, ideas, and plans of their own. If I was advising them I would be suggesting they keep neutral on the Indy question, but in support of a Referendum for the people to decide. If the rest of their policies were sensible and not too extreme and their candidates credible I think they’d stand a good chance of winning.
