I’ll be very pleased if the popularity of diesels goes down. It means there will be more second hand bargains for me.
Yeah diesels have apparently gone down in value by 5% secondhand
Krytz ya cheeky sod, this page has comments from me on it and how much more informed can one be ??
I ask you 🤷♂️💄
😜
I went for a Lexus NX300 SUV, the main selling point was I can get 3surf boards in it with the passenger seat flat and the rears folded. Bike goes in too with wheels on. 2.5ltr petrol Hybrid. But honestly the engine in it could be smaller IMO, well for me. They’re bringing out a small SUV UX, smaller and more like Volvos XC40 but only petrol or hybrids available.... one thing I do like about Lexus IS they’ve stayed clear of Diesel engines...
But I did look at Golfs, when I went there the dealer said stock for last year had sold out.. it was on my list though. Odd that the Touran they have no plans to make an E version... I find that weird.
Mercs were coming through in E models, but they were still flogging diesels to all and sundry and looked at me sideways when I asked about a C-Estate E version.. fine they’re coming through now but last year ? Nah.
Volvo too, the XC40 I wanted but that was only being sold (still is) with the same Diesel engine that was in my old XC60... that engine growls a bit and even then thought it a bit heavy and not very economical.. but pulling 2tons isn’t ever going to set any MPG stats alight is it.
I’ll pass on the boring electric/hybrid cars for now whilst I can get 40mpg out of a 3l petrol engine. Can’t say I miss the extra £20 a month I spend on petrol.
That's nice for you.
Yeah the Lexsus is lovely something I looked at but the prices were too steep.
Australia has NOT banned diesels. some manuf's, notably vw are stopping selling them there.
the new high mpg petrol cars are almost all very small city cars, but there are very few familiy class/size ones available unless you can go for brand new, and those have a premium.
also, tarring all diesel with the same brush is bad. if you fit the criteria for economy buy a euro6 diesel like i did recently (fwiw leon st ecomotive) guess how much tax is? ZERO.. and they are exempt from the congestion charges levied 'against' diesels. these cars spewing black smoke should disappear or be fixed as the MOT has been updated to look for that. be careful and double check which designation the engine falls under as some dealers misrepresent that.
(fwiw i do a 20 mile each way commute, mostly motorway and average 65mpg - costing me half what my old car used to cost me)
Ok, apologies for the misinformation. I heard that nugget on the radio.. they did mention VW in the article but the scope was wider than VW.
A match made in heaven.
😀
Her indecisiveness is caused by a total ambivalence regarding cars and the buying process though. Put three in front of her and she's decide on one of them on about 30 seconds - based on how it looks and drives and can it fit the kids in.
Anyone tried to order a VW hybrid recently...
Unfortunately there is a massive loophole (incentive?) related to benefit in kind in the current company car rules that pushes people toward hybrids (typically 13% versus 31% bik values). No doubt HMRC will close it once enough people have committed to hybrids though...
My Outlander did 35mpg and got about 270miles on a full charge and full tank on a run. It would be worse if you kept the battery with some charge.
The diesel that replaced it does 70mpg and about 800miles on a tank.
You're not comparing like with like. The Outlander is brick shaped, so the poor fuel economy is due to that not the fact it's a hybrid.
Hybrid power trains (or good ones) should be more efficient on long trips as well as short. They offset the inefficiencies of petrol engines, regardless of whether or not you charge them up. That's why the original Prius were more efficient even without having a plug-in capability.
Re smoke belching diesels - this is not intrinsic to the diesel engine, this is because something's broken (turbo or MAF or something) and the driver/owner has not fixed it. A broken petrol engine could be spewing pollution just the same, but you wouldn't see it. You'd smell it though.
Re smoke belching diesels – this is not intrinsic to the diesel engine, this is because something’s broken (turbo or MAF or something) and the driver/owner has not fixed it. A broken petrol engine could be spewing pollution just the same, but you wouldn’t see it. You’d smell it though.
Would that fail the new MOT? Petrols running rich or lean
You’re not comparing like with like. The Outlander is brick shaped, so the poor fuel economy is due to that not the fact it’s a hybrid.
That's funny. My Euro 6 diesel Outlander does nearly 50mpg despite being exactly the same shape as the PHEV one.
Ok, Perchypanther's comparison is closer - except the PHEV one is petrol, no? But if his new diesel does 70mpg then ScottChegg clearly isn't comparing like with like.
Hybrids are a mixed bag, it has taken a long time for them to become competitive with diesel and some, eg the Outlander, have just been all out flops and just bought as a tax dodge. That said, if you do less than 30 miles a day then they are an absolute steal used. The first few iterations of the Prius were also pretty pants, only place they really made sense were London due to the congestion charge and LA due them comparing the rubbish MPG to big US gas guzzlers.
The current crop of plug in hybrids eg prius, VW, Merc are all a hell of a lot better. But on a long trip will still most likely fall behind a good diesel.
Ultimately car size/weight is the biggest factor in all this, if we could wipe out all vehicles and start again with much smaller personal cars, separate infrastructure for goods vehicles to centralised hubs etc then we would be in a much better place in terms of being able to lighten up car design. I personally wouldnt care if all city cars looked the same and were made of plastic with big rubber bumpers. Also better cycle routes, maybe even some covered ones (wasnt that a Boris idea?) as that would mean more all year round cycling for everyone and of course better light rail/metro type systems.
I think the real fuel source dying a death is petrol. I hope that diesel in it's current form disappears too but I think there is much more incentive to find an alternative form of diesel fuel - some form of bacteria produced, zero toxic output format simply because the whole concept of the diesel engine is more efficient and more reliable and is used so much more widely than in just cars. We have just over complicated them with high pressure pumps, turbos etc. A well maintained and properly driven diesel will still out MPG and outlast any equivalent petrol engine.
I was lying on the grass the other day after a ride and happened to glance over to my car, it's a 4 cylinder, twin turbo diesel mercedes with over 200hp and at 7 years and 125k miles the inside of the exhaust is still shiny stainless steel, in fact I just popped out and rubbed my finger around the inside of the exhaust tip and it's still clean.The quality of the diesel engines is one reason I chose a Mercedes, personally I won't touch anything with a VW engine, I simply don't rate them for reliability or soot output. I know a lot of that is because they get dodgy remaps or are poorly maintained and ragged to death but you do tend to see a lot on the roads putting out puffs of black smoke but the point I am making is not all diesels are equal.
But yes, I hope one day all vehicles will be able to run with electric propulsion of some sort (battery, fuel cell etc).
Batteries are the current hold up, currently too heavy and too expensive as well as all the other environmental and safety problems. A 1st gen Leaf battery is currently about 10kg and £200 per kWh, a Tesla is about 6kg and £100 per kWh, those figures are coming down all the time and while the i reductions are getting harder and harder they should come and when we see 3kg and <£50 per kWh (only half the current production standard which is half what it was a couple of years ago) then I think there will no longer be any excuse for a new car to not be electric.
In the short to medium term,I don't think they are dead, just undesirable.
If you are driving say 20,000 miles a year, then it might be worth it financially, not environmentally though.
I have had a Nissan Leaf EV car for nearly two years now.
Much cheaper than petrol or diesel , about 4 miles per kw of energy.
Servicing is dirt cheap, no oil, filter , no cambelt, no gearbox.....much simpler.
The only real downside, is the range, about 80 miles before recharging.
More ev and hybrids will be sold in the coming years.
I looked at a Leaf last year, it was quoted as being one of the fasted depreciating vehicle ever and lease companies were really losing out. Then there was a lot of diesel uproar and a significant shift in the public's view of diesel cars. Also figures around how well EV batteries are lasting have really help bolster used prices and looking again this year I think prices have either stayed the same or gone up slightly as last year there was a lot of 1st gen lease cars coming up for sale.
there will be a second wave of cheap EVs though when the current 2nd gen cars come onto the used car market after a couple of years use.
One of the great things about EVs is you can check the battery health and when joe public gets to grip with that and starts properly checking the battery health it will really help boost confidence in buying used. I just hope that there is no way to falsify the information like the days of clocking cars.
If you are driving say 20,000 miles a year, then it might be worth it financially, not environmentally though.
Driving 20k a year in any car is not environmentally friendly.
I will also take unction about a hybrid or electric being 'better' - it is different. It moves or changes the source and type of emissions, impact on resources etc.
I bet the next big scandal is all the metals for the batteries in these things - where they are mined, processed, recycled or dumped. I also bet that the batteries longevity becomes an issue.
I still subscribe to the 'if you have to have it, keep it and run it as long as possible' principle (reduce first and all that).
Ok, Perchypanther’s comparison is closer – except the PHEV one is petrol, no? But if his new diesel does 70mpg then ScottChegg clearly isn’t comparing like with like.
WTF has like with like got to do with anything? Drac's assertion was that Hybrids are the best deal for long journeys. My experience says cobblers. And, of course it's petrol; isn't that the point?
All the furious backpeddling that "Outlanders are crap, I meant the Golf" and "It's a brick aerodynamically" shows how weak the initial point was.Not all hybrids are the same. Just like all diesels aren't the same, pollution-wise.
A Tiguan diesel will do 60mpg+ wihout much fuss with similar frontal area. It's not carrying a half ton battery, though.
There are other forms of pollution from cars that a lot of people don't even think about - where do you think all the little bits of tyre and brakes that wear down end up?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5664766/
Sadly it is something that I suspect we will be very unwilling or unable to resolve and the pollution will continue. Bags, straws and micro-beads have all had a lot of recent press coverage due to polluting the oceans and ending up seafood we eat but tyres (plastics) and brakes (metal compounds) particles are micro and nano sized and end up in the oceans, our soils and even in the air we breathe. Shock horror bikes also contribute (remember kids, skids also pollute the environment!) all be at a much, much, much lower scale, obviously.
Electric cars will help the brake dust case as they use as much regen braking as possible.
Next is tyre compounds - natural rubber should be biodegradable but it is the other bits we mix in that are not. Also there is the source of NR to be concerned about.
Light-weighting - that will massively reduce tyre and brake output but at what expense if we have to move to composites?
Self driving cars - potentially a good route to reduce wear by getting rid of the human element.
Self driving, not personally owned cars - a double whammy as composites then make much more sense as the car could last longer
Charge while you drive - eg wireless power roads. Huge potential to reduce vehicle weight and the need for batteries but at what expense to system efficiency and impact on power generation pollution?
looks like the UK Gov are finally cottoning onto the above to:
https://consult.defra.gov.uk/airquality/brake-tyre-and-road-surface-wear/
WTF has like with like got to do with anything? Drac’s assertion was that Hybrids are the best deal for long journeys. My experience says cobblers.
Well, what car replaced the Outlander? Was it an SUV of similar weight? We're comparing power train technology here, aren' we, not specific cars?
Does a Tiguan really do 60mpg under the same conditions an Outlander does 27mpg? Forgive me for being a little sceptical as I've never heard of an SUV shaped car doing more than mid 40s, but I'd be pleased to be wrong.
@molgrips - you are right, mid 40's at best.
https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/realmpg/volkswagen/tiguan-2016
Worse on the older model
https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/realmpg/volkswagen/tiguan-2008
Yeah, but a Tiguan is MOAR* brick shaped than an Outlander innit.
*Drag coefficient of 0.37 for the Tiguan vs 0.33 for the Outlander
I would love an electric car, but there are too many big blockers for me - price is obviously one, but the biggest one is trying to get one that would tow my caravan on holiday. Oh, and range too - most of my driving is local, but every now and then we'll cross the country or drive into Europe and I think that having a car that won't do this without a stressful hunt for a charger would not win my heart. My big-ass diesel Volvo isn't going to save the environment, but it sure makes for a useful tool for moving the bikes between events, and the family on holiday.
That said, Mrs Daern has a Megane Diesel and while she does far more commuting miles than me, the car rarely does more than 100 miles in a day and would be a perfect swap for an electric car...when the economics start working. As of now, the car owes us nothing (4yo) and does nearly 60mpg, so replacing it would have to be an act of conscience, because it sure isn't going to impress the bank manager!
We'll probably end up with one electric car eventually, but not right this minute.
most of my driving is local, but every now and then we’ll cross the country or drive into Europe and I think that having a car that won’t do this without a stressful hunt for a charger would not win my heart.
You could solve this problem with a diesel, but not one you necessarily own. I wish it were easier, and cheaper to hire a car for a few weeks. I think BMW were on the right lines with the hire club that you subscribe to, rather than having to find an extra £500 on top of your holiday expenditure.
Still determined my next car (or preferably van) will be electric. But that doesn't solve any of the other problems, like the fact that there's sod all room on the roads to drive the things! People need to spend less time thinking about their next car and more about genuinely sustainable transport. The population and car ownership is still growing, making all those cars electric is only solving part of the problem.
In the meantime I'm keeping my C-max (1.6 petrol) going for as long as possible. Forget "it'll cost more than the cars worth to fix it", even after a few crap years for the OH's fiesta it's still cheaper to throw parts at it than buy anything else (which unless significantly newer is going to have it's own list of faults and cost money to buy!).
Re smoke belching diesels – this is not intrinsic to the diesel engine, this is because something’s broken (turbo or MAF or something) and the driver/owner has not fixed it. A broken petrol engine could be spewing pollution just the same, but you wouldn’t see it. You’d smell it though.
You don't though do you? When was the last time you followed a modern petrol car and thought "that's running a bit rich".
I'll hold my hands up, my MG (from the 70's) is really bad for that as it runs right on the MOT test limit for HC emissions.
You don’t though do you? When was the last time you followed a modern petrol car and thought “that’s running a bit rich”.
I've seen a few, admittedly not as many as diesels. But most of the diesels I see doing this are vans, and there are so many vans on the road and they are all diesel, and frequently not owned by the driver who then doesn't give a toss. Also, if a car's running rich on the motorway you'd never know, but you can see the diesels even at 60mph.
Just thinking of some of the problems my car has had over the last ten years:
High level braking light
Door locks
Ignition lock
Secondary air pump
Thermostat
Coolant temperature sensor
MAF sensor
Radiator fan
Leaking air intake hose
Throttle body gumming up
Dipstick holder breaking
Ashtray lid breaking
Punctured sump
Three or maybe four of those could have happened to an electric car.
I can comment just from my local area, say a 7 mile square area. I'd say as a rough figure just from observation 70 percent of vehicles are diesel. That won't change anytime soon, as this area is 20 miles from the city. In the city (Belfast) it's about 40 percent diesels and 60 percent small hatch petrols or electrics. This is just a pure rough guesstimate. Maybe it's to do with our location or people's attitudes or needs, but diesel is still king where we are.
You could solve this problem with a diesel, but not one you necessarily own. I wish it were easier, and cheaper to hire a car for a few weeks. I think BMW were on the right lines with the hire club that you subscribe to, rather than having to find an extra £500 on top of your holiday expenditure.
IIRC, Volvo, Mercedes,JLR and others have introduced an 'all in' lease scheme - everything bar fuel included, and the option to borrow a bigger vehicle from dealer when needed, option to move up or down model sizes through the lease etc.
Three or maybe four of those could have happened to an electric car.
You think?
Still has a radiator (unless you don't have heating or A/C) which will need a fan for running in slow or static traffic.
Therefore still has coolant.
Therefore still has thermostat.
The only ones that couldn't happen to an electric car are the throttle, dipstick and sump. It would be more accurate to say three, maybe four couldn't happen to an electric car. Which have their own problems anyway. Wonder who is going to be "shocked" at the cost of a motor re-wind? Or a motor replacement after they ignored the failed bearings?
Nearly all new diesels seem to come with a tank of wee to cut down on the nitrous oxide emissions. Since they also produce less CO2 than the equivalent petrol car, they are presumably better for the environment.
Euro 6 diesels are not clean in terms of NOx.
^ I don't think that was implied; he said cut down, not eliminate.
There's some false economic in here; spending an extra £10k to save £300 a year on fuel. Doesn't work chaps
It does if you want to reduce your environmental impact.
Or if you want to cut your BIK tax bill.
"these cars spewing black smoke should disappear or be fixed as the MOT has been updated to look for that. "
Only if they've got a DPF. My car's got an older engine without a DPF so the old MOT rules apply to it (IIRC). Not that mine visibly smokes anyway.
^ Plenty of Mk3 Mondeos about still. No smoke, no poke.
ScottChegg chill no one has claimed that there is only one choice or back pedalled. Diesels are on the way out for cars they’ve had their glory days times have moved on.
It does if you want to reduce your environmental impact.
You of all all people don’t need the “how do they make electric car battery’s “ lecture... you know that statement isn’t true. Environmentally you’re just shifting the problem.
I’m with MattOA on that front.
Make do and mend to all intents and purposes rather than buy buy buy. Might view that differently if I drove in congested areas. But I don’t. Or even drove to work. But I don’t.
Environmentally you’re just shifting the problem.
You're changing to a different problem, which can have different solutions. If battery manufacturers are bad now, they could improve. There's no way to capture and dispose of CO2 from exhaust pipes, AFAIK, and no way to create more petrol without even worse impact.
Then why advocate the change?
Diesels aren’t dead at all, they are being enhanced as much as they can to remove identified pollutants (well, we all are led to believe that) but they have a defined use in our society which fits a demographic. The main issue is they were effectively missold to increase sales into a usage profile which exposed and increased thier main disadvantage - soot & NOX.
The industry has tried to solve that problem by throwing a turbo on a small petrol engine - vis a vis you still get close to the MPG the manufacturers promised you with diesel but with reduced NOX. Even that’s a lie, as the petrol and oil consumption of these engines is way over what was advertised. Nevertheless, this is a bridge to electric.
Electric then - in the main - moves the environmental problem so solves nothing there, does help people financially (assume you start from no car, are considering a purchase and fit the demographic) but comes with a flaw - cost vs range. As an example, a Nissan Leaf would suit Mrs K perfectly for the school runs etc, but for me to be to be London-Flintshire-London overnight puts me in Tesla territory - and that comes with a cost hike at purchase.
So it remains horses for course - it’s Petrol vs Hybrid vs Electric for short to mid range, and Diesel for long range and industrial. We can only hope technology will assist us to develop an alternate fuel source that might reduce impact on our planet yet meet all our usage requirements.
Diesels aren’t dead at all, they are being enhanced as much as they can to remove identified pollutants (well, we all are led to believe that) but they have a defined use in our society which fits a demographic.
Dying. They're going to be banned in the UK by 2040 which is one reason why so many manufacturers are moving to electric.
Really? Link to evidence?
What are the global hauliers and heavy industry going to use.
All genuine questions Drac I don’t know but am keen to learn, thanks.
edit: don’t worry I googled it. It all presupposes my previous post; that we actually have a zero emissions transport offering that works for all by then. It’s a nice thought, but by no means certain.
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/100276/2040-petrol-and-diesel-ban-hybrids-set-to-be-exempt
There you go.
Note the two poignant parts of that related to my prior post;
a) ...based on 98% of journeys covered by a 50 mile range - ok, what do the rest of us do?
b) ...there is still a role for diesel
c) Michael Gove made the promise 😉
I’m sure all this was done in a thread about 2 weeks ago.
Back to holiday mode for me.
