**Long winded**
I have recently found myself looking at cars, not to buy but learning about them...
The more I learn about current and older cars, the more it would seem that the days uber reliable diesels that could rack up half a million miles are gone. <span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">Because of DPF, Adblue and reducing weight to </span>achieve<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;"> better MPG...etc</span>
After looking at new petrol cars a lot can do great mpg and burn cleaner, run smoother etc. Is the longevity there? Looking at new cars with 3 cylinder engines where once they had inline 4s. Honda civic with a 1L petrol engine, Fiesta with 3 cylinder, Audi A3's with 3 cylinders. Are cars currently being produced going last into the hundreds of thousands of miles with little being replaced, excluding tyres and filters etc.
I get why it's being done to make 'them' more environmentally friendly by releasing less soot and NOx gases. The more I think about it the more it seems a-shame that we seem to be taking a step back in longevity. Surely with diesels becoming more and more expensive to maintain that surely their shelf life will tumble and more sent to the scrap yard is worse for the environment long term?
Bit of a long winded post but I think this is interesting.
Frequent short journeys = petrol, less frequent longer journeys = diesel, I believe is current wisdom.
No.
Plenty of reasons to continue buying a diesel for the next 5 or so years, and beyond if you are commercially minded.
Private, well then yeah you are going to be limited in choice because manufacturers have decided (on government instruction) to phase or limit the sale of sooty.
Australia has just banned diesels and Greenpeace are lighting candles in support.. so only one way this world is going..
Even that there EU are placing restrictions on usage in cities and such, so really it’s kinda like we’re being pushed down a narrow path with less MPG but cleaner (not really cos CO2) vehicles.
Choose well.. think of the baby robin you’ll save.
Hmm.. the old 'diesels go on forever' thing isn't necessarily because it's diesel. Simple engines go on forever. Modern petrols and diesels are both complicated things.
Diesels used to be simple crude things, which is why they were noisy and slow. Then they improved them with a load of new gubbins, and because the gubbins were new, they failed, and people didn't understand what to do with them (DPFs). However by now, they have figured out how to make them more reliable again, I think.
Petrol cars were then a bit rubbish to drive compared to diesels, so they added a load of gubbins in.... They may or may not prove reliable.
The Ad-Blue thing isn't new tech, it's been in lorries for years, and all it does is release Ad-Blue into the exhaust - not that complicated. It probably makes the rest of the system more reliable, since the engine can burn hotter and be less smoky. I don't think diesels are 'more and more expensive to maintain'. You just have to know about the DPF, pay attention to the lights, and fill up the Ad-Blue when you need to.
But it's a moot point anyway since engines aren't usually the thing that gets cars scrapped. Normally they just get too old to be worth much, so people stop looking after them and maintaining them. We would still be doing half a million miles in loads of cars if people weren't buying new ones all the time.
When you take an old car to the garage, they say 'it's not worth repairing this' meaning the cost of the repair is close to or more than the market value of the car. But the market value of the car is based purely on its age and how many newer cars are available. The actual car might still be fine, it's just that no-one wants it, which means it doesn't get fixed. Nothing to do with mechanicals.
There are millions of diesel cars around, it’ll be a long time before they’re ‘dead’, at least in the U.K. and Europe. The US is different, they never really took to diesel as a means for powering cars, they prefer big petrol engines, or smaller petrol for city cars, they’ve never worried about consumption figures, and with The Donald eviscerating the EPA and actively pushing back on improving fuel consumption things aren’t going to get any better over there.
The ‘dieselgate’ scandal was over NO2 in the US, not CO2, designed to encourage Americans to buy diesel cars, although the US truck industry was doing the same thing, although it had a knock-on effect here, it’s particulates that are the issue, and they’re being dealt with as development of diesels goes on. It’s such an efficient motor, loads of torque, great efficiency, ideal for longer commutes, not so good for regular short journeys.
I was seriously considering petrol for my next car, as I was only using the car for shortish runs with rare long journeys, but my new job involves a fifteen mile journey each way every day, so I’m probably going to stick with diesel.
I hope not, I'm picking up my new one Saturday 🙂
I've a non-adblue, 5cyl diesel of at least 15 years heritage/fine tuning to the exact model I have, and older versions are commonly on 250k. I'm hoping it's more reliable than most.
I also expect to own the car for 3-4 years, of doing 20-25k a year. It's already got 70k on the clock.
Frequent short journeys = Electric
Frequent longer journeys = Hybrid
Diesel is dead.
Frequent short journeys = Electric
Not bicycle?
Which Diesel? VIn?
simple Q , simple A - NO.
Nearly all new diesels seem to come with a tank of wee to cut down on the nitrous oxide emissions. Since they also produce less CO2 than the equivalent petrol car, they are presumably better for the environment.
Better to start with people that sit in car parks / outside schools / shops etc with their engine running while they wait or have lunch.
Well said Drac!
Not bicycle?
**** off! A bike? Where do you think you are?
The US is different, they never really took to diesel as a means for powering cars, they prefer big petrol engines, or smaller petrol for city cars, they’ve never worried about consumption figures
The main reason was the strict NOx limits imposed to prevent smog in places like California. They introduced such strict limits in 1997 that VW diesels could no longer be sold, which AFAIK is what made them develop SCR aka the Ad-Blue system for cars.
Simple engines go on forever. Modern petrols and diesels are both complicated things.
This.
Electric ones are the only modern cars I think you could buy and expect 10+ years of use without a big powertrain bill. Our next car will not have a petrol or diesel engine.
A lot of people with newer diesels seem to ignore ad blue top up warning lights and the DPF regen' lights and continue to their cars demise, no more restarts etc and turning them off mid regen'
But I was reading that something like car sales in the EU are about 54% diesel however that's forecast to fall to 46% (rough numbers) and some car makes, Jaguar and Land Rover diesel sales make up 90% of their sales.
Depends
Buying now with a view to the next 5-10 years of same vehicle ownership. No.
But, if your concerned about emissions locally more than globally and are likely to change vehicles fairly frequently and haven’t recently purchased some long haul flights then possibly yes.
Buying new or used would be pretty major factors in my decisions as well.
It depends on what application you are talking about.
Commercial vehicles: Won't die out for a good decade at least.
Big personal cars: will slowly get replaced by electric or hybrid petrols as the battery tech improves.
Small personal cars: Dead.
I've got a small car with a 3 cylinder petrol and that should last me long enough to get me to the time that electric small cars can do the range I need on a regular basis (~200 miles before charging). I actually fit the driving profile for having a diesel (journeys are usually 30 mins or more, very few short trips as I commute by bike) but the cost of maintenance of the current technology and higher purchase price made the small petrol a better buy over 100k and 7 years.
The actual answer to the question is no, not until the general public eventually learn that diesels for the typical short journey profile is not good. Sadly it will take a long time to make this happen as an awful lot of people think that a petrol engine in their SUV or 4x4 will be horrifically expensive. Add in that the majority of those types of cars on the secondhand market are diesels and the change in the public's perception will take a long time to change. The minority who buy new cars will lead the change with hybrids or electric vehicles but this will then take a long time to filter down the secondhand market, especially to the lower end. The key will be when the fleet buyers get shot of the first batch of fully electric cars that have done the rounds on lease deals in large numbers. I can't see that happening for a good decade once you take into account the number available (no big variety for 3-5 years or more) then add on the normal 3 year lease. These will then enter the secondhand market at the top end then take a further 3-6 years to filter down to the budget market. The current generation of diesels and petrol engines will be around for a good 10-15 years yet so I'd say you're looking at 2035-40 before the internal combustion engine market dries up completely.
Electric ones are the only modern cars I think you could buy and expect 10+ years of use without a big powertrain bill.
Nah. Don't agree.
Tell you what though..
The quicker commercial vehicles are tested to the same Mot as private vehicles the better.
Followed a belching behemoth of a Merc Sprinter (less than 2yrs old) belching black soot in clouds down the M3 earlier, vile..
2 years old, the thing was either knackered or driven within a few hundred to the red line in every gear..
And he didn’t use his indicators neiverz 🤪🧟♂️
A private vehicle doesn't need any MOT at years old. 😬
Old school engine technology for me reached its peak circa 2006 after that diesels became too complex for their own good and small capacity highly strung petrol engines started to appear. The days of lazy large capacity low stressed engines finished. I'm waiting for electric cars to come down in price so I can leap frog a whole swath of overly complex IC engines*
*I'm quite happy tinkering with electrical drive systems.
Frequent short journeys = Electric
Frequent longer journeys = Hybrid
So can someone recommend a vehicle to get me & my pikey caravan up to Fort William from North Yorkshire without having to set off 3 months before I want to get there, finding places to charge it up & wait 15-20 mins each time (& do some driving around while we're there of course)
For a budget of 11K.
Ta.
Frequent longer journeys = Hybrid
No. On a longer journey a hybrid is just an ICE lugging round an electric motor and a battery.
Short journeys and electric I agree with.
Modern engines are not less reliable than older engines, they're more reliable, and it's nothing to do with how the engine is stressed...engines fail not because of the components that are stressed - I.e. pistons, con rods, bearings, crank shafts etc., they fail when the bolt on periphery electronic bits fail...which are easier to fix...though not always cheaper and easier to diagnose.
I would avoid Diesels if you do alot of driving in built up areas...they're toxic and kill more people every year than any other environmental issue...the environmental technology only deals with stuff like NOX and other things and do nothing for the thousands of other nasty chemicals that diesel oil contains. So if you spend most of your time motoring along nice and efficiently then Diesel is OK...if, like most people, spend alot of time in traffic then Diesel is not the best option, for you or people around you.
A private vehicle doesn’t need any MOT at years old.
Doesnt it?
Are you sure?
Like really sure..
Becuse I thought the first mot was due after three years..
My point is commercial vehicles need them every bloody year after registration... they get hammered and belch sooty all over the road and it’s not nice at all.
Yeah, I’m going to propose that to the DfT..
Electric ones are the only modern cars I think you could buy and expect 10+ years of use without a big powertrain bill
Hmm, take it you've never worked with industrial motors then?
Ours is. Mrs TiRed put petrol in it for the second time. I’m watching the nice man from the AA pump it out. Next one will be a hybrid CRV.
The US is different, they never really took to diesel as a means for powering cars, they prefer big petrol engines, or smaller petrol for city cars, they’ve never worried about consumption figures
Where red I am a small city car had a 2l engine. “Normal” cars are 2.5 or more... everyone expects 200k out of a car I see low mileage trucks with 130k on them for sale for $15000
mind you it is hot as shit and apparently larger engines do better in the heat, my car in oz was 3.something...
life of car depends on usage. Small engine carrying 4 fatty or towing and the car will die quicker. Plus obviously how you drive...
There has got to be a business plan for leasing cars in Europe for 5 years then shipping them to Africa...
Pretty much as everyone else has said - diesels will go on in commercial and for some longer distance drivers.
The latest numbers for diesel sales - they are down ~30% - but private sales generally are down too.
Our next car will probably be electric (excluding another “mid life crisis” car) since it makes sense for some of our journeys. However this will only be when our 10yr old naturally aspirated petrol Honda dies, which might be a while. Since not changing cars is probably the most environmentally / financially sensible thing to do.
Big cars need torque and leccy motors produce even more than diesels but availability of charging points and speed of recharge will have to improve drastically before diesel owners switch to electric cars.
I can easily get 600+ miles from the 60 litre tank of my comfy estate car. My own bladder only has a range of around 250 miles at 70mph but that's still way better than an electric car and I'm back on the road in two shakes, not plugging into the mains for half an hour.
Diesels will still make sense for longer out of town journeys for a few years yet.
Can't understand why manufacturers don't explore universal fit cartridge batteries that live in a double skinned floor and are pulled out through a flap in the side sills. The weight would be low down and between the axles. Bigger cars = more cartridge batteries. Anyone could pull into a 'filling' station and swap their depleted batteries for charged ones in the time it takes to fill a tank. This works for cameras, power tools and e-bikes, just scale it up. Payment via a battery rental system plus charging costs.
Because the battery trays are over 200kg on even small cars like the i3.
Doesnt it?
Are you sure?
Like really sure..
Becuse I thought the first mot was due after three years..
Yeah, I missed the 2 out. 😳
No. On a longer journey a hybrid is just an ICE lugging round an electric motor and a battery.
Errrr! Yeah but it still uses both to return mpg while emmiting less pollution.
So can someone recommend a vehicle to get me & my pikey caravan up to Fort William from North Yorkshire without having to set off 3 months before I want to get there, finding places to charge it up & wait 15-20 mins each time (& do some driving around while we’re there of course)
For a budget of 11K.
If it means less caravans too I can live with that.
Errrr! Yeah but it still uses both to return mpg while emmiting less pollution.
Nope.
My Outlander did 35mpg and got about 270miles on a full charge and full tank on a run. It would be worse if you kept the battery with some charge.
The diesel that replaced it does 70mpg and about 800miles on a tank. Current hybrids are a tax fiddle that fool a weak test. The more fuel you burn, the more you pollute overall.
Electric for a short journey. Diesel for a long one, until a hydrogen fuel cell car comes along.
Nope.
My Outlander did 35mpg and got about 270miles on a full charge and full tank on a run. It would be worse if you kept the battery with some charge.
You bought the worst hybrid possible they're terrible and well known for it. Long runs in hybrid mode I'm getting upward of 80mpg with my Golf GTE.
Oh, hang on; when you said 'hybrid' you meant a particular make and model?
That's the trouble with sweeping generalisations; most of the time they are wrong.
No, I meant a proper hybrid not the joke they Mitsubishi produced.
Loved my diesels they were great and did excellent mpg of around 65mpg on long journeys. I thought I’d miss the power and the economy but not it’s not an issue which did surprise me that a electric motor can produce so much power.
I'll be very pleased if the popularity of diesels goes down. It means there will be more second hand bargains for me.
Always some win richmars
Dracs got some very valid points..
To some degree I took on what he said when I looked for a Hybrid, and I honestly couldn’t be more happy with mine.
When it comes down to choice it really is very difficult to not choose a Golf GTE.
I chose a different brand, but it’s a damn fine place to sit.
Currently averaging 63.4mpg... that’s gone up from a week ago from 62.8... yet I’m driving it the same and using the same roads etc..
I may have killed plenty of bugs on my journeys, but the Goldfinches in my garden are still there flapping away.. so I’m calling “no baby birds were killed in my ownership of my Hybrid” 😜🤠💪
Seriously impressive aren't they?
The next gen will be interesting to see how they've progressed.
Which one did you go for?
Some good balanced info here at least on the first page.
I travel all over for work and bike racing so I recently chose to purchase a mid size auto diesel estate, with a view that its a long term purchase. I did chose PCP due to the obvious get out of jail free card in 3 years, but expect not to use it. This is my “industrial car”. Journeys into city’s are always by train so no issue there.
The family car - 10yo Diesel Kuga - will be replaced next year. I can’t get Mrs K to decide on what car she wants (I have a grand plan for a 40th birthday surprise) but it will certainly be petrol and ideally be hybrid, as she uses it for school drop offs / local kids stuff and the occasional trip into Hampshire to meet our extend family. Golf/Focus/Mini 5 door/Peugeot 3008 is the current thought as we don’t need an SUV really, and as this will be her first ever own “nearly new” car I want it to be something she likes rather than just a workhorse.
I'll pass on the boring electric/hybrid cars for now whilst I can get 40mpg out of a 3l petrol engine. Can't say I miss the extra £20 a month I spend on petrol.
I can’t get Mrs K to decide on what car she wants
A match made in heaven.
