[Closed] Anyone read the Bible?

Well, Cougar if you're a young, liberal, post-modern Baptist minister it's

Because they're strong, dynamic characters easily equal to their men

gonefishin - look up!

As for aggressive aethism I am never really sure what this means. For sure some peole dislike the message and the believers more than others but it is an importnat issue - i find it used as a bit of a lazy slur tbh used to charicature folk.

Aggressive atheism - I wasn't aware it was a proper term, it's just a natty phrase I thought of to describe people who work really, really hard to deny God's existence/the potential of God's existence.

Is that a lazy slur? I don't think so. Such people exist. I'm not judging. Sheesh.

Doesn't matter though, because I love you Junkyard. Not quite as much as bencooper, but I do. A lot. 😉

bloodu typical always sloppy seconds even in love 😥

Yes but have you got a ban hammer to smite the unrighteous like Cougar

think he trumps you ttbh

How about the bits where both Jesus and Paul state catergorically that Christians are not bound by Old Testament Law?

Well that is mixed re lex talions [eye for an eye] but the 10 commandments - it really depends tbh which bits

Is that a lazy slur? I don't think so. Such people exist. I'm not judging. Sheesh.

These are few and far between. Even Dawkins isn't that - the only logical case is agnostic theism/atheism (I'm not sure but I think god does exist/doesn't exist).

Aggressive theism: kill people.
Aggressive atheism: write a strongly worded letter to the local paper.

Gnostic theism/atheism is where the problem lies, and it is mainly on the former.

I might even nick that statement for my next sermon.

Feel free. Bonus points if you mention it came from an atheist. (-:

The point I was getting at though isn't modern (re-)interpretation, so much as the message being portrayed by these characters. It's easy to say how not all women were second-class citizens because they sometimes get the better of their male peers, but if the underlying message is that they're responsible for the downfall of men then, well, that's not the great message you claim it is.

If you teach the former meaning ("strong women") then I applaud you for that; reinterpreting the Bible is no bad thing. (I've said this before, but modern Xtianity really could do with Bible 2.0, it'd stop dead all these logical inconsistency debates.)

No need to get narky gonefishin, Jesus' life, death and ressurection brought a New Covenant which replaced the Old one. Christians quote his words every time we take communion 'In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you."' Jesus did in fact move the goalposts, that's the whole point of Christianity. If you don't understand that then you don't understand the faith you are getting upset with. The covenant that existed between God and the Jews is not the same as the one that exists between God and Christians. So in fact 'the old part [i]doesn't[/i] count.

kja78 - I am surprised that you did not also point out that women were chosen to be the first witnesses to the resurrection

people who work really, really hard to deny God's existence/the potential of God's existence

It takes very little work surely?

So in fact 'the old part doesn't count.

Wait, so bumming's actually ok? Has anyone told the Church of England?

How about the bits where both Jesus and Paul state catergorically that Christians are not bound by Old Testament Law?

So what was it's point?

Jesus did in fact move the goalposts, that's the whole point of Christianity. If you don't understand that then you don't understand the faith you are getting upset with.

The questions that were raised were about the bible, that includes both the old and new testaments. Thanks to my religious education I am very well veresed in the christian faith, well one schism of it anyway. Also thanks to that same education, well that and the abundant bigotry that stemmed from it, I am and athiest.

Cougar - I think the underlying message of those sorts of stories is that God hates arrogance, injustice, oppression, poverty etc etc. What he loves is equality. Whilst those women where responsible for the downfall of individual men, they were men who represented the very worst of a male dominated society. Neither women nor men should be trying to get one up on each other, but where there are clear injustices, then subversion may be a way of making things better.

It takes very little work surely?

No, scratching the surface will do nicely, sir. 🙄

* loves fervouredimage. Not quite as much as bencooper or Junkyard, but enough. *

Has anyone told the Church of England?

No, the catholics are keeping it for themselves.

The covenant that existed between God and the Jews is not the same as the one that exists between God and Christians.

What's the current Baptist attitude to Jews who deny Christ's divinity? Can they still be saved according to the Old Covenant? I'm aware that liberal Anglicans may think this, but as I don't know the Baptist position I'd be interested to know. Thanks.

 

mefty - I thought Cougar was getting a bit bored by my long and tedious writing. But yes, that would have been pretty radical in 1st Century Palestine, as was the fact that the shepherds were the first to hear about Christ's birth.

No, scratching the surface will do nicely.

Scratching the surface is all you can do with something so thin and flimsy.

badnewz - much to the amusement/annoyance of many atheists, Baptists don't have a set position on that. My personal believe is no, they cannot. Whilst Paul does wrestle with this issue in Romans and Corintians, I think he draws that conclusion that only faith in Christ can lead to salvation. I do have a couple of people in my congregation who believe firmly that all Jews will be saved, but they think that they will come to faith in Christ rather than be saved through the Old Covenant.

So basically the old testament is full of baloney that need not be listened to.

From what kja78 is saying, it would seem that the OT is "what was before," then Jesus came along in the year dot and attempted to fix things.

What he loves is equality.

Such as equal rights for any two people who love each other to get married irrespective of gender?

What about Matthew 5:17?

"Do not think I came to abolish the Law but to fulfil it."

I guess you could say he said "I come to end that and now follow this."

That's the problem, too many inconsistencies. If it was written by the creator of the universe s/he did a pretty poor job.

But then again the story of this particular prophet is seen in many other tales, such as Mithras, and others. Perhaps a good story to live by, keeping in mind that it was based on desert nomads' stories.

If it was written by the creator of the universe s/he did a pretty poor job.

Um, I don't think God actually wrote the Bible dude.

I don't think God actually wrote the Bible dude

.

EDIT: god didn't write the bible, the old testament is not to be followed, the whole book is looking a little irrelephant.

Interesting point, phil.w

Did God direct those who wrote the Bible - ensuring that they wrote it perfectly, according to his direction - or did he allow his followers free will, enabling them to interpret as their human brains saw fit?

I don't know the answer to that one.

As soon as I got to the bit about us all being descendants of a murderous incestuous family I put it down

EDIT : 🙂

You mean he forced his creation to have free will? 😀

Um, I don't think God actually wrote the Bible dude.

How about the bits where both Jesus and Paul state catergorically that Christians are not bound by Old Testament Law?

So Jesus said that people should ignore his dad when he said that childbirth was a curse for disobedience, and women are to be ruled over by their husbands? Maybe he recognised that the old man had overreacted?

If the Old Testament is a load of old nadgers and that’s recognised [i]even by Jesus[/i], why’s it still packaged with the Bible? Is it like Star Wars fans with the prequels – everyone knows it’s rubbish, but it’s just there for completions sake?

And would that be the same Paul that said that women should be silent and submissive in Church, submissive to their husbands, and not allowed to teach or hold any position of authority over men? Was he just having a bad day when those nuggets sneaked into the New Testament?

did he allow his followers free will, enabling them to interpret as their human brains saw fit?

So god gives the illusion of free will? Is he a Tory?

ooh contentious, when the people who believe in the bible nail that one down between themselves we'll discuss it further.

Nope, I'm sure it's agreed that the apostles of Jesus wrote the NT. Don't know about the OT.

Well, here's how I look at it. If God inspired me to do something (which I believe God does) would I do it perfectly? No, of course not. Therefore if God inspired the Bible writers and translators(which I believe God did) would they have done it perfectly? My answer has to be no.

There are generally thought to be three things that dictate Christian beliefs, they are scripture, reason and tradition. The first founding principle of the Baptist Union of Great Britain says this: That our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, God manifest in the flesh, is the sole and absolute authority in all matters pertaining to faith and practice, as revealed in the Holy Scriptures, and that each Church has liberty, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, to interpret and administer His laws.

I guess if you don't believe in the Holy Spirit then we're pretty much stuffed.

As an aside an interesting website is [url= http://www.godchecker.com/ ]Godchecker[/url] which lists all known gods/demons/supernatural stuff. It's fascinating, learning about ancient gods/mythology from all over the world.

that said that women should be silent and submissive in Church, submissive to their husbands, and not allowed to teach or hold any position of authority over men?

This bit?...

1 Corinthians 14:35
If there is anything they want to know, they should ask their husbands at home: it is shameful for a woman to speak in the assembly.
[img] [/img]

or this bit...

1 Timothy 2:11-12
During instruction, a woman should be quiet and respectful. I give no permission for a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. A woman ought to be quiet.
[img] [/img]

😀

phil.w, that one reminds me of...

[img] ?width=737&height=552[/img]

excellent 🙂

If God inspired me to do something (which I believe God does) would I do it perfectly? No, of course not

Why not? I thought man was created in god's image?

Doesn't this imply that god is flawed? Either he made a mistake in our design, or it's an accurate design and thus god is flawed because we are. Non?

Mrs. Toast, - Jesus came to pay the price for sin. He put an end to the punishment that men and women had been suffering because of Adam, Eve and the serpent's sin.

I'd love to have a proper conversation about Paul's attitude to women (if it was even Paul), but there's not the time or space here. The main problem with Paul's commment to Timothy that 'I do not allow a woman to teach or have authority.' is that we do not know the true meaning of the word 'authentein' which is translated 'authority'. It occurs nowhere else in the New Testament, and nowhere in the Greek version of the Old Testament. We find it later than Paul in legal documents where it refers to murder. I've studied this in quite some depth. It seems to be that Paul was dealing with a proto-Gnostic heresy which taught that Eve was created before Adam and that Yahweh lied to them and Satan was good. In this context, Paul's statement might read 'I do not allow women to teach that men should be subservient to them [on that issue] they should be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve.'

Another issue of context was that Paul was writing to churches in the Roman Empire and he knew full well what the Romans did to people who disturbed the status quo, whilst Christians are free from rules of their cultures, Paul encouraged (perhaps wrongly in my view) men and women to observe the cultural norms so as not to bring persecution upon the church.

Is it like Star Wars fans with the prequels – everyone knows it’s rubbish, but it’s just there for completions sake?

I think the point is that JC re wrote or re interporeted many of the rules and things said previously
TBH its a gioid read and he seems like a stand up guy

the issue re women is ambiquous [ the OTi spreety clear about your lowly place] as he was more "tolerant" than that which went before but he still had 12 male disciples and not one female - lets not do the Mary magdeline myth here -
its like all things you can quote what you like here is my favourites - which does not mean what it appers to [taken out of context]

Do not think that I came to bring peace on Earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;

followed by

and a man's enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.

Nope, I'm sure it's agreed that the apostles of Jesus wrote the NT.

The main problem... is that we do not know the true meaning of the word 'authentein'

Isn't forming a belief system around a book that we can't even read properly a little, well, hazardous? Presumptuous, too.

we do not know the true meaning of the word 'authentein'

But then again religions can evolve - if they want to - never sure whether this is a good thing or not.

Forming a belief system around a very few passages that cannot be read properly is indeed hazardous and presumptious. However, there are not many parts of the Bible that are quite so difficult to translate, funnily enough it's mainly the parts on women and homosexuality in Paul.

If God inspired me to do something (which I believe God does) would I do it perfectly? No, of course not

Why not? I thought man was created in god's image?

Doesn't this imply that god is flawed? Either he made a mistake in our design, or it's an accurate design and thus god is flawed because we are. Non?

Being made in God's image doesn't mean to operate as God, but to resemble him.

It's nuts to interpret that statement to read that humans are, effectively, individual Gods.

Now that's presumptuous. 😉

What tyres for religion ?

I tried to find Him on the Christian cross, but He
was not there; I went to the Temple of the
Hindus and to the old pagodas, but I could not
find a trace of Him anywhere.

I searched on the mountains and in the valleys
but neither in the heights nor in the depths was I
able to find Him. I went to the Ka'bah in Mecca,
but He was not there either.

I questioned the scholars and philosophers but
He was beyond their understanding.

I then looked into my heart and it was there
where He dwelled that I saw Him; He was
nowhere else to be found.

It's extremely important to Christians that all people are created in God's image, our morals and ethics hinge on it. But we don't have to bear God's image perfectly do we? Some might say that my daughter is 'the image' of me - like me she's chubby, blue eyed and fair haired, but clearly she's not exactly the same as me.

[i]It's extremely important to Christians that all people are created in God's image, our morals and ethics hinge on it.[/i]

Oh dear. Tea break is over. normal service is resumed.

Hang on.

Is there any paleo diet info in the bible ?
Fruit is [i]out[/i], isn't it ?

Solo - Eh? Have I missed something? Christians may not behave as though that's the case, but they certainly should.

It's extremely important to Christians that all people are created in God's image, our morals and ethics hinge on it.

It's extremely important to Christians that all people are created in God's image, our morals and ethics hinge on it.

What about the modern day Christian crusades where thousands of foreigners die?

However, there are not many parts of the Bible that are quite so difficult to translate, funnily enough it's mainly the parts on women and homosexuality in Paul.

So are you saying that the bits that are awkward to translate all involve women and homosexuality? That being the case funny isn't a word that I'd use, convenient is probably more appropriate!

You all fell for this thread, guys! These God-botherers will do anything to try to engage you in any sort of dialogue so that they can spout the mumbo jumbo I've read on the last five pages.

Being made in God's image doesn't mean to operate as God, but to resemble him.

It's nuts to interpret that statement to read that humans are, effectively, individual Gods.

You may be right (though that's not really what I meant), but I'll take the accusation that it's a "nuts interpretation" with a pinch of salt given that this is a discussion about religion.

But then again religions can evolve - if they want to - never sure whether this is a good thing or not.

Interesting one, this. It's a bit 'damned if you do and damned if you don't.'

If an organised religion evolves to be more relevant to modern times (which I personally think will do them a lot of favours), it essentially needs to backtrack on previously held beliefs and values. In a scientific field this is both easy and commonplace; you go "sorry, we've disproved your theory" and adapt. But in an arena which is built solely on ephemeral concepts like "faith" that's a lot more difficult. You've spent a couple of millennia give or take going "look this is the way it is, trust us," suddenly changing your mind and admitting you were wrong is incredibly difficult. A big problem facing religion in the modern day is simply one of inertia; "but we've always done it this way!" (which of course, is a terrible reason to do anything).

Kja78.

I'm just kidding bud. No offense intended towards anyone.
If any of you have a god shaped hole in your life and you go ahead and fill it. Good for you.
🙂

Yes, gonefishin, I think that sadly it has been convenient for certain sectors of the church over the years, and I think that theologies of oppression and abuse have been formed and founded on very shaky arguments. If you want an apology from a Christian from that then I'm very sorry indeed and deeply saddened.

Hora, as I said not all Christians always behave like they believe that's true.

Don't worry Solo, I wasn't offended, just confused by this

It's extremely important to Christians that all people are created in God's image, our morals and ethics hinge on it.

Oh dear. Tea break is over. normal service is resumed.

Wondered if I was being thick?

Oh and just to make you truly wince, we all have/had a God shaped hole in our lives.

Oh and just to make you truly wince, we all have/had a God shaped hole in our lives.

I don't. No holes at all, far as I can tell.

Well, a pay rise and a decent summer wouldn't hurt I suppose. Reckon you could have a word with your god, see if he can sort out the weather for us this year?

[i]Wondered if I was being thick?

[/i]

Not at all. I was just pissin about.
🙂

I don't really want to get dragged into this, but I can't get involved with religion. However, this:

'[i]A big problem facing religion in the modern day is simply one of inertia; "but we've always done it this way!" (which of course, is a terrible reason to do anything).
[/i]'
I feel explains a lot wrt to [i]certain[/i] religions.

🙂

[i]Oh and just to make you truly wince, we all have/had a God shaped hole in our lives. [/i]

Yeah ?, well, emphasis on the '[i]had[/i]' then. As since, what I've seen and heard in this life has lead me to question [i]God's purpose[/i].

EDIT:
[i]Anyone read the Bible?[/i]
Oh !, the ironing.

Right, I'm off.

If an organised religion evolves to be more relevant to modern times, it essentially needs to backtrack on previously held beliefs and values....

I think Rufus (Chris Rock) said it best in Dogma...

[list]I think it’s better to have ideas. You can change an idea, changing a belief is trickier. Life should be malleable and progressive; working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can’t generate. Life becomes stagnant.[/list]

Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?

Douglas Adams

I find the comments in this thread deeply worrying, it's like the last 200 years haven't happened for some people.

It's like you haven't read the last 200 religion threads on STW, more like. (-:

Nice to read a religion thread without the usual as shatters.

Good contribution from kja78.

I didn’t realise I had a god-shaped hole in my life until I looked on godchecker.com and read about Radigast:

[i]“God of Sound Advice and Thought.

He's easily recognizable — he carries a two-headed axe, has a bull's head on his chest and wears a flying swan on his head.”[/i]

Any god who proclaims to be the patron of sound advice and thought and dresses like that is a bit of a hero, tbh. He also sounds like he'd fit in right here - would a flying swan on the head be more or less effective than a helmet? Would it assist on jumps?

He also had his name blatantly pilfered by Tolkien....

Good contribution from kja78

Well I have but I always feel a bit weirded out by true believers, I just can't see their point of view at all.

Stan Lee has a lot to answer for.

Good contribution from kja78
Second that. Completely disagree with him, but a polite and thoughtful contribution (well, it is his job and all )

Thanks chaps and chapeses, I'm now off to write the 'thought for the day' that I was supposed to be doing whilst chatting with you lot! After I cook dinner for my wife and three daughters (how's that for Biblical equality!)

Well, a pay rise and a decent summer wouldn't hurt I suppose. Reckon you could have a word with your god, see if he can sort out the weather for us this year?

Reminds me of a joke -

I wanted a nice new mountain bike so I prayed to God to give me one. Then I realised that God doesn't work like that. So I nicked a bike and prayed for forgiveness.

LOL thanks kja78 🙂

Although I stopped posting in this thread I've kept up with most of it.

I'll also add. Even though I am very much an atheist Kja78 replies are very good, well thought out responses with a refreshing view on religion. Your acceptance that parts of the bible are exaggerated or made up tales but for the purpose of faith are a nice view and one that I wish other believers would take.

Although I stopped posting in this thread I've kept up with most of it.

I'll also add. Even though I am very much an atheist Kja78 replies are very good, well thought out responses with a refreshing view on religion. Your acceptance that parts of the bible are exaggerated or made up tales but for the purpose of faith are a nice view and one that I wish other believers would take.

+1

Last week I watched a Nigerian wedding on tv and it filled me with hoy. Loved it. Praise whoever you want but do it with love folks. Peace.

[img] [/img]

❓ 😯

Must be those thighs. Good looking bloke though, so I can relate to why Hora wants to be full of him.

Must be those thighs. Good looking bloke though, so I can relate to why Hora wants to be full of him.

You're meant to be angst ridden and miserable... Posts of that quality could persuade Pope Jim Bowen into a snog!

Ffs. Fail of the week 😆

Hora and Cougar; I just spat coffee out of my nose. Please refrain...

rail of the week, shirley?

I stopped reading when someone said "the whole world being covered in water over just 40 days would really churn up the soil layers and muck up the dating systems used currently" and I spilt me tea everywhere.
Can someone summarise the rest as I've got 4 wheels to build before bedtime 🙁