The first cockapoo didn't come from a cockapoo, it came from a poodle.
Caveat: IANAEB*
They're the same species...
Speciation occurs over time, it's not a one generation event.
Your father was the same species as you. His father was the same species as him. His father was the same species as him. His father was the same species as him. His father was the same species as him. His father was the same species as him. His father was the same species as him. His father was the same species as him....
However, there will be a point where your great [i]x n[/i] grandfather will not be the same species as you, but every parent was the same species as their parent.
(I've seen Dawkins explain this using the device of a pile of photographs of successive generations, but I can't find it on YouTube.)
*I Am Not An Evolutionary Biologist
Try taking some LSD.
Did this in my teenage years. Can't recall much of a spiritual persuasion happening though. I bought several tins of Ambrosia creamed rice from the local shop and emptied then all in to my friends kitchen sink. I was convinced that Ambrose the cat was trapped inside one of them.
More mind bending than expanding 😀
There is no first chicken. There were proto-chickens, and now there are 'what we currently call chickens'.
We humans tend to think of singular entities and beginnings and ends. I think maybe that such thinking is fuelledby our hard-to-escape projection. As in 'we are born, we are us, and then we die'? There is no time in our lives where we 'evolved'. We were 'created' and then we faced entropy. This is a very different experience to the foregone millennia and epochs of speciation/evolution. It's lot for us to wrap our minds around in a short lifetime.
Discounting poetic/journo license there also is no 'first human'. Evolution happens to populations. Likewise, do we ask - 'What came first, the human or the womb? The sperm or the egg?'
We know that the wheel came before the bike, but that is a slightly different matter. Unless you were to stretch the analogy to include wheel-less proto-bikes such as pre-wheeled hobby-horses. In fact that may be a decent analogy for those who are stuck with 'creator' thought? But my intention here isn't a setup for a 'what came first, the hobby-horse or the hobby-horse-builder?'-type question. Again, anthropocentrism trips us up.
But there was no 'first chicken', AFAIK.
Cont'd -
A hobby-horse became a bike when it had a wheel put on it and someone called it a bike. Or was that pedals? Proto-bike is a difficult beastie. Was it ever settled - who made the first bike?
So the occupant of the egg become a 'chicken' as soon as we called it a chicken. It's a word. Before the word it was a name-less bird. Bird is still a word.
Bird bird bird. Bird is the word. I'm going for a ride tonight to think about this some more. But am pretty sure that bird is the word.
Bird bird bird. Bird is the word
Damn you. That's in my head now.
So has the Bird become a Bike ..Aeris would have us believe so..
Ma ma ma ooh maw maw, mamma oo maw maw.
It's the Satanists I feel sorry for.
Reviled by the religious and atheist alike.
If SaxonRider prays to God for this thread to end and it doesn't...
[img] 
/revision/latest?cb=20160605132724[/img]
Speciation occurs over time, it's not a one generation event.Your father was the same species as you. His father was the same species as him. His father was the same species as him. His father was the same species as him. His father was the same species as him. His father was the same species as him. His father was the same species as him. His father was the same species as him....
However, there will be a point where your great x n grandfather will not be the same species as you, but every parent was the same species as their parent.
This is a little of what i was asking about gene lengthening. Because for all the breeding, interbreeding, cross-breeding of dogs all dogs still have the same gene length.
So has the Bird become a Bike ..Aeris would have us believe so
We live in Hope.
For the record, I can't ride a bike. I'm sorry.
Google drew a blank and never heard this so a genuine request for info not a dig.
miketually - Member
If SaxonRider prays to God for this thread to end and it doesn't...
😀
Actually... are you making assumptions about me?
This is a little of what i was asking about gene lengthening. Because for all the breeding, interbreeding, cross-breeding of dogs all dogs still have the same gene length.
Can you expand on this - or indicate some further reading - was disappointed your point was never fully developed.
Can you expand on this - or indicate some further reading - was disappointed your argument was never fully developed.
it's more of a question really, in that species have different gene lengths, and longer genes are in more complex animals but genes don't lengthen in an evolutionary way, the require a different sort of step change.
Thank you for the reply, interesting question - was hoping it might be your area - which I haven't worked out yet.
Well, it's not, but poah started to address it.
Thing is, mutation is ok and i can see this modifying species as they develop, but that species jump in complexity, to become a new species seems less evolutiony
Were you the guy trying to disprove evolution in the other thread? I don't know what you've been reading now but it's common knowledge that genome size can increase by duplication, insertion, or polyploidization. Bioinformatics has also highlighted that it takes very few mutations to drive speciation - it can be done in as little as 15,000 years to several million (see African lake Cichlids).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4353498/
Cichlid fish adaptive radiationis characterized by rapid speciation without geographical isolation. In Lake Victoria, several hundred endemic species emerged within the past 15,000–100,000 year
This is a little of what i was asking about gene lengthening. Because for all the breeding, interbreeding, cross-breeding of dogs all dogs still have the same gene length.
Modern humans arose a few hundred thousand years ago. We only domesticated dogs a few tens of thousand years ago.
Time...
miketually - Member
If SaxonRider prays to God for this thread to end and it doesn't...Actually... are you making assumptions about me?
I was commenting on the image only.
I knew two priests called David. One would pray for a parking space, the other thought that if God didn't intervene to stop a tsunami why would he help find a parking spot.
I'd not assume.
it's more of a question really, in that species have different gene lengths, and longer genes are in more complex animals but genes don't lengthen in an evolutionary way, the require a different sort of step change.
you mean genomes not genes.. Genes do mutate e.g. sickle cell anaemia is a single point mutation that changes an amino acid in B-haemoglobin. The only upside of this disease is that it protects against malaria so in the sub-Saharan Africa, where 80% of the disease occurs, provides an advantage.
Thing is, mutation is ok and i can see this modifying species as they develop, but that species jump in complexity, to become a new species seems less evolutiony
its totally evolutionary tbf lol it doesn't happen in one jump.
But it's a pretty easy question either way - evolutionists will say egg, creationists chicken.
Is that the 19thC 'evolutionist' or modern (mis)usage? Really only used by a certain subset of [s]science-deniers[/s] I mean [s]Creationists[/s] [s]Biblical literalists[/s] argumentative persons?
I'd not assume.
8)
its totally evolutionary tbf lol it doesn't happen in one jump
duplication, insertion, or polyploidization.
Exactly, and these aren't mutation processes
Duplication, insertions and deletions are all considered to be mutations.
duplication, insertions and deletions are all considered to be mutations
How is duplication a mutation?
Because it is usually the result of errors in DNA replication. These changes can alter the expression of proteins because the sequence is transcribed to the wrong part of the genome. A mutation is not limited to nonsense or missense types.
Tom_W1987 - MemberDuplication, insertions and deletions are all considered to be mutations.
Duplication means gaining another copy of a gene its not a mutation like the other two.
insertions can be considered a mutation if the DNA disrupts the gene
deletion can either be removing a gene or a mutation in the DNA that causes a codon change.
you can see this between humans and chimp.
*Humans have acquired 689 new gene duplicates and lost 86 since diverging from our common ancestor with chimps six million years ago. Similarly, they reckoned that chimps have lost 729 gene copies that humans still have.
*C&P
The definitions that I have seen state that they can be considered mutations , due to the reasons stated in my last post.
An insertion that did not alter gene expression would be considered a silent mutation.
From the US national library of medicine
A duplication consists of a piece of DNA that is abnormally copied one or more times. This type of mutation may alter the function of the resulting protein.
One is examining something external
The other is examining something internal
this question has already been posed
nice one bruvvvaaaaaaa
Poah I think youre conflating the normal gene duplication/amplification/tranacription processes with abnormal events.
An insertion that did not alter gene expression would be considered a silent mutation.
oooohhhhh terminology issue here.
gene expression means DNA to RNA. insertions in the DNA sequence don't normally affect this unless its in the non-coding promoter region.
A silent mutation is one that doesn't affect the codon sequence. Other mutations include: non-sense where a stop codon is introduced; miss-sense where an amino acid change occurs.
Poah I think youre conflating the normal gene duplication/amplification/tranacription processes with abnormal events.
eh no
arghhhhh
Silent mutations are mutations in DNA that do not significantly alter the phenotype of the organism in which they occur. Silent mutations can occur in non-coding regions (outside of genes or within introns), or they may occur within exons. [b]When they occur within exons they do not result in a change to the amino acid sequence of a protein (a "synonymous substitution")[/b]
I wasn't so sure before about evolution other than slight variations but this thread has proven that macro evolution does exist.
arghhhhh
I take it you don't know I was a molecular biologist in a previous life lol
I take it you don't know I was a molecular biologist in a previous life lol
Did you evolve?
poah - Member
Tom_W1987 - Member
Duplication, insertions and deletions are all considered to be mutations.
Duplication means gaining another copy of a gene its not a mutation like the other two.insertions can be considered a mutation if the DNA disrupts the gene
deletion can either be removing a gene or a mutation in the DNA that causes a codon change.
you can see this between humans and chimp.
*Humans have acquired 689 new gene duplicates and lost 86 since diverging from our common ancestor with chimps six million years ago. Similarly, they reckoned that chimps have lost 729 gene copies that humans still have.
Yeah, but....
god, because, you know... clouds...
Tough isn't it, woppit. Which side do folks tend to agree with? Tom or poah?
Did you evolve?
went the other way 🙁
take it you don't know I was a molecular biologist in a previous life lol
Was this before Watson and Crick lol.
Also...snap.
