But there is other folklore, legends and stories passed down through the generations that suggest he was born of a mother who like a bit of slap and tickle behind her husbands back with the odd Roman soldier and had a talent for telling tall stories and people believing her, and who himself was partial to partying all night with flowing red wine and the odd lady of the night.Is there? Got a link?
so Tacitus born 50 something CE and Josephus (controversial that one) writing in is it 98CE not in any way contemporary accounts.
Ceasar's Gallic wars are a) a first hand account b)confirmed by contemporaries eg Cicero c) the fact of a Gallic Campaign is clear from the archaeology d) as a book the Gallic Wars is probably factually inaccurate.
Take a read through this.
yes, but we've seen Life of Brian and know how these stories can get out of hand.
Someone like Derrin Brown could easily pass himself off as the Messiah, or even just a very naughty boy, if he were in those times.
Did anyone see the series where he was training someone to be an evangelist - and the episode where he lay hands on a young man who was sitting out of a basketball game his friends were playing because he had had a dodgy knee for years, after an accident?
They told him he might feel some heat around his knee during the laying of hands, and he did, and after the healing he was bouncing around proclaiming that his knee didn't hurt anymore, and went off to play some basketball.
Sounds like a miracle to me...
I know I am here but how the heck did it get here? If we create a virtual environment containing an intelligent consciousness that only knows and can only know the virtual environment it exists in would it have the same questions?
those questions don't give credence to a god, just to our lack of knowledge at this point.
Have you got any good factual evidence about the universe came about? I mean pre Big bang, pre False Vacuum (Not that I really understood it when I read about it)?
nope but that doesn't mean a god made it, it means we don't know. to say god exists because we don't know is argumentum ad ignorantiam, a logical fallacy.
So....
Not allowed to believe in God because skyfairies
Not allowed to believe in the Man Jesus because archeology and Derren Brown.
Can I believe in Guru Nanak? His existence has never been disputed to the best of my , albeit limted, knowledge.
Would it be cool with the atheist kids if I were to become a Sikh instead?
What about L. Ron Hubbard? Pretty sure he was real. I've seen documentaries with him in it on the telly and everything.
Should I abandon the apparently sham teachings of a guy who may not have even existed and become a Scientologist instead?
Is there a Church of Elvis?
Should I abandon the apparently sham teachings of a guy who may not have even existed and become a Scientologist instead?
Nah just worship the great strawman.
Fast moving thread, this.
I think it's problematic to assert that Jesus as depicted in the Bible definitely did or didn't exist. The earliest written records about him were, to the best of my knowledge and please correct me if I'm wrong, written decades or even centuries after his death.
I think it's plausible that he did exist in some form, maybe a bloke who went around doing nice things. Perhaps with a neat sideline in early street magic. But historians of the day wouldn't be able to look him up on Wikipedia, they'd almost certainly have relied of word-of-mouth accounts. And what do we do when we tell a tale? We embellish it a little. Over centuries it's not a great leap to end up at the feeding of the 5,000 when he had a couple of mates around and thought to bring a packed lunch. This is how legends are born.
Also, it could well be that once word got around, people started attributing other people's actions to him. See a bloke helping someone up off the floor? Ah, must be that Jesus fella.
By way of comparison, look at Robin Hood. A millennia on, similar sort of timescales, we all know the legends and there's some evidence as to who he might have been, and yet [i]we don't actually know for certain that he was real.[/i] If we can't be certain about someone in the Middle Ages, how can we hope to be certain about someone from the year dot?
nope but that doesn't mean a god made it, it means we don't know.
Moreover, "god did it" doesn't answer the question, it just displaces it. Where did god come from? Did his god create him? Like your artificial universe scenario, is it gods all the way up?
What if [i]we're[/i] that artificial universe?
please correct me if I'm wrong, written decades or even centuries after his death.
Read the linked article, earliest within 25 years, gospels all written within decades.
Not allowed to believe in God because skyfairies
Not allowed to believe in the Man Jesus because archeology and Derren Brown.
You're allowed to believe in what you like. we live in relatively enlightened times.
nope but that doesn't mean a god made it
It also doesn't mean a god didn't make it. This is the whole point.
to say god exists because we don't know is argumentum ad ignorantiam, a logical fallacy
I don't think that's what's being said. From what I can tell, the considered argument is "We don't know that God exists, but [i]I believe[/i] He does"
I think it's problematic to assert that Jesus as depicted in the Bible definitely did or didn't exist.
Doesn't actually matter though does it.
Jesus, whether historically verifiable or not, is attributed as having said some things which many people, myself included, think were quite groovy and choose to try and emulate as much as we can.
It doesn't actually matter if he was real, if God is real, if Jonah really survived for 3 days in the belly of a great fish.
To me, these bits are just the colourful backstory to the bits that really matter.
It also doesn't mean a god didn't make it. This is the whole point.
you just proved my point lol we know god doesn't exist therefore he could not have made the universe.
Not allowed to believe in God
Not allowed to believe in the Man Jesus
believe what ever you want just don't try and tell me its true with no evidence or force those beliefs on other people (not specifically you) If you can show me hard facts that god exists then I will believe it.
just don't try and tell me its true with no evidence or force those beliefs on other people
The entire thread has not been about that. Why bring it up? Just a general whinge? I hate middle-lane hoggers too.
Doesn't actually matter though does it.
Well, no, I was just making conversation.
The entire thread has not been about that. Why bring it up?
seriously? I was replying to perchypanther's post. I know it was hard to see that what with me replying to a quote.
So was PP telling you to believe in God or telling you God exists?
Nah, i was telling him that I believe in some historians, both secular and religious, who believe in the existence of a man who is believed to have said some stuff that I believe in.
It's belief all the way down. 😉
I've never asked anyone else to believe anything.
we know god doesn't exist therefore he could not have made the universe
No, you have [i]faith[/i] that God doesn't exist.
So was PP telling you to believe in God or telling you God exists?
I didn't say he was - I was talking about religion in general trying to convert people to their lies. really didn't think I would have to explain it so basically for you.
You shouldn't toss the passive-aggressive insults around. It makes you look like a dick.
So you don't like people trying to convert you - ok, me neither. But it's not really relevant to the thread...
So what I've taken away from this thread:
No-one actually knows what religious people believe, it's like a will-o-the-wisp that every time you ask seems to change so a decent discussion can never be had.
That molly is everyone's dad on threads like this. 🙂
I was talking about religion in general trying to convert people to their lies
What you perceive as a lie, another person has a fundamental belief in - you won't be able to persuade them that it's a lie any more than they will be able to persuade you that it's the truth. I see no problem (and much positivity!) in accepting that people can comfortably have different beliefs.
That molly is everyone's dad on threads like this.
Maybe I am a god, and you are all my children.
So, according to almost all historians, were Confucius, Buddha and Jesus Christ?Are we allowed to believe in them as human beings with a message to tell?
Not imaginary, not fairies. Real people.
If somebody such as Jesus did exist then, in my opinion, the whole son of god angle takes away from what he did and said. No doubt his ideas and teachings were pretty radical and damn good. The idea of him being a nice guy with something of a rebellious streak appeals to me way more. If he was real and was killed for his beliefs, that's a better story than the magic man version.
Maybe I am a god, and you are all my children.
Evidence? 😉
You mean you don't believe?
I do. Nobody else will.
Nealglover I ignored it the first time you posted it (athiests rule one) but, go on, what is the actual documented recorded evidence for jesus outside of the new testament ? is there even a record of Nazareth existing in 4 BCE ?or of Herod's slaughter of the innocents?
I'm here.
First time I posted what ?
No, you have faith that God doesn't exist.
Again? Sheesh. A lack of belief does not require faith.
I don't believe that there are invisible miniature unicorns living in my skirting boards. I can't prove this of course, as it's impossible to prove a negative. But it's so highly improbable that it's possible to know this to be true for all practical purposes. Nothing whatsoever to do with faith. Should I find one one day I will cheerfully accept that my knowledge was wrong.
Atheists do not believe in a god or gods. I personally am happy to state "gods don't exist" using the same logic as above (though this isn't atheism, it's a step further). I assume the poster you were replying to thinks similarly?
You shouldn't toss the passive-aggressive insults around. It makes you look like a dick.
But first we have to define what being a dick is, I thought you said? (-:
(Wasn't that a passive-aggressive insult?)
Just back from a nod ...
" is there a church of Elvis ?"
Not sure but someone did see him "crying in the chapel "
neal this sorry if you didn't post it first time
"nealglover - Member
Worth repeating this.
People seem to have missed it.
A genuine equestion for the "how can you believe in imaginary sky fairy" types.
Is it OK to believe in an actual, historically documented human being who had some nice things to say about how they thought people should behave to live a good life?
You don't need to believe that they were possessed of any mystical powers or anything.
Only that they were real people, who must have been considered pretty hot shit by their contemporaries to be remmembered after all this time, who dispensed real lessons which might still resonate with people hundred or even thousands of years later?"
A lack of belief does not require faith.
Not sure I agree here.
You have not seen any evidence, but that does not mean that there is none - logically. So there could either be a god or not, and you cannot at this point say for sure either way. You have chosen an option that you consider most likely. That is not that far off faith is it?
This is an academic point I am exploring btw - nothing personal.
Ok, so what Christians believe. Jesus is our saviour. He died for our sins. The only way to heaven and eternal life is by repenting and accepting Jesus as our saviour. Not by good deeds. Only through God's grace. Therefore, Christians know they are saved. This is unique to Christianity as far as I know. As far as proof goes, you can look into this, history books, confirmation of what the bible says etc. The accuracy of what is stated (times, places, names etc) in parts of the bible is astonishing. Not to mention the prophecies that have been proven to be true hundreds or even thousands of years later. Not just rough predictions, but in great detail. Part of the Christian faith is that we are expected to ask questions, not just blindly believe without evidence. If you take the step and ask God to reveal Himself, I believe that he will and in time it will all make sense.
The accuracy of what is stated (times, places, names etc) in parts of the bible is astonishing. Not to mention the prophecies that have been proven to be true hundreds or even thousands of years later. Not just rough predictions, but in great detail.
That is highly contentious!
This is an academic point I am exploring btw - nothing personal.
Not a very good starting point from an academic point of view.
I don't believe that there are invisible miniature unicorns living in my skirting boards. I can't prove this of course, as it's impossible to prove a negative. But it's so highly improbable that it's possible to know this to be true for all practical purposes. Nothing whatsoever to do with faith. Should I find one one day I will cheerfully accept that my knowledge was wrong.Atheists do not believe in a god or gods. I personally am happy to state "gods don't exist" using the same logic as above (though this isn't atheism, it's a step further). I assume the poster you were replying to thinks similarly?
My response was to the statement "we know god doesn't exist", so talk of unicorns feels a bit straw-manny, but with regard to god, statements of belief or disbelief can neither be proved nor disproved. For me, both are statements of faith, but you know how it is. As much as anything, it's a half-baked attempt to get people to look at things from a different viewpoint - "you may be convinced of A but people are convinced of B - neither can practically be proven, so who's to say what's right?" Big fan of tolerance, me. 🙂
Not a very good starting point from an academic point of view.
Do go on..?
neal this sorry if you didn't post it first time
Righto. No, I didn't.
Don't know the answer either (which is why I re posted it, as I thought it was an interesting Q)
[quote=poah]what about fun, eyebrowns and DNA lengthening?
you asked for things which were just unexplained
Really? what do you mean by 'direct' evidence? and where do you get that Confucius is hearsay? What do you mean by that
seriously?
yes, seriously. (That was a bit of a wasted exchange, from now on, assume what i say is meant seriously)
I don't believe that there are invisible miniature unicorns living in my skirting boards. I can't prove this of course, as it's impossible to prove a negative.
Sort of, but if you were more clear about your construct of unicorns, with some idea of traits, attributes, behaviour etc. Then you might be able to create a hypothesis which could be tested and arrive at a balance of probability. From that you could choose to reject or accept the hypothesis.
Hey there good people ... I've being watching from the side lines and have been glad to have read some excellent post from theists.
Im more of PP's thinking that the Jesus "is a story better told" but Eazyd74 makes an excellent point.
If you take the step and ask God to reveal Himself, I believe that he will and in time it will all make sense.
Ive been inviting our friends of STW, for sometime, to go look for God themselves and to stop waiting to be given "evidence" by someone else .
It really is a nice journey of discovery
Good Luck
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**** me this is a long thread. I think the key takeaways I have observed are as follows:
- There's a lot of people clearly have WAY too much time on their hands to think too much
- There is definitely a trend among the "non/anti religious" on here to use what I would describe as deliberately provocative & abrasive language such as "sky fairies", which just comes across as being a dick
- There's a difference between "religion" as in believing in a higher power and the "organised religion" part of that belief structure
- Everyone should just accept that people have different views, and allow them to crack on with their own beliefs
- Not all atheists are abrasive and combative dicks like some on here, just as not all religious people (of all faiths) are funadamentalists
In summary, there's various types of belief or non belief structure, but one unifying factor - in each group are cool people who are tolerant, and also dicks who want to start a fight (either virtual or real).
The end.
pondo - MemberNo, you have faith that God doesn't exist.
This was literally my first post in the thread; a lot of theists persist in treating atheism as being a faith. It's like saying not riding bikes is a sort of bike riding. The absence of faith is not faith.
