[Closed] Anyone for another religion thread?

If the old testament or genesis is not relevant then why is it still in the bible.

v2.1? Original manual included only for reference at users own risk?

like?

Fun

Eyebrows

DNA lengthening

Apologies for the repost. I don't want trollgrips to miss it...

Because this might lead you to understand what people are getting from their faith, and lead your own questioning in a better direction.

I understand that the Vatican employ the services of a "Chief Excorcist". This is a person who claims that humans can be inhabited and directed by "demons" to cause harm.

Another example of medieval ignorance and a belief in fictional beings.

Progress in modern medicine has, of course, identified these problems as being caused by various types of mental illness and can offer medicinal relief.

Speaking as someone who once had a close working relationship with a very creative and intelligent person who was diagnosed as having a "schizo-affective disorder" and claimed in all seriousness that the voice in his head was "from hell, baby" but refused his medication and eventually threw himself under a train, if I ever met this "Chief Excorcist" I'd feel strongly impelled to punch the **** straight in the face.

santa and god have never done anything, they don't exist

Given that God is not really very well defined, that's a bit of an empty assertion.

I believe he does not, but I could be wrong.

All sorts of gods are very clearly defined. Many of them in different ways by those who claim the same allegiance.

None of the definitions have ever proffered evidence of being anything more than something that someone just made up.

Really. You'll have to do better than that.

Molly you could be wrong in the same way i could be wrong when i say the sun will set in the west and rise tomorrow. Anything is theoretically possible even those things that are actually implausible to the point of impossible [ except theoretically]

As for god not being very well defined - its harsh of you to claim those religious folk dont even know what they are worshipping but i am happy to add it to the list of issues they need to address.

Yes molly anyone could be wrong but on one side we have the evidence of science from the big bang, to evolution to the age of the universe to the known laws of biology, physics chemistry and basic laws of logic and on the other a book they accept is not entirely accurate and their faith

Its not much of a contest its like arguing a squirrel could beat a bear in a fight - yes it could happen but really its not even worth considering.

All sorts of gods are very clearly defined.

Oh? Go on?

Yes molly anyone could be wrong but on one side we have the evidence of science from the big bang, to evolution to the age of the universe to the known laws of biology, physics chemistry and basic laws of logic

None of which is incompatible with the concept of God.

Sorry, this is from 14 pages ago....

Simon_Semtex - Member
Peterpoddy....

"It explained to the people of the time the two big mysteries - Where we come from and what happens when we die - and gave sensible rules to live by. There's a lot of sense in it."

So how relevant is this book today?

Case in point....

Leviticus 19:19
'You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together.

So im not allowed to wear a cotton/polyester shirt? Nor should I be drinking milk from the abomination that is the "Holstein Friesian." And what about my Allotment? I've got carrots planted in the same field as cabbages?

Sensible rules indeed!! LOL

Am I going to hell?

You've chosen to ignore most of what I wrote and quote something to nitpick me and make yourself look clever and funny.
It's not worked. But you go right ahead if you like.

molgrips - Member
All sorts of gods are very clearly defined.
Oh? Go on?

Oh please...

Thor, Vishnu, Zeus etc etc ad neauseum.

The Bible is full of descriptions of the Christian version.

Don't be so obtuse.

None of which is incompatible with the concept of God.

🙄

Descriptions? Or definitions?

I'm genuinely not aware of any specific detailed definitions. Descriptions aren't enough really are they?

@Junkyard - good riposte, well done.

I feel like the questions I was asking earlier in the thread went unanswered- about how far you can deviate/interpret your way away from the texts and the traditional model before you're no longer really following that religion, etc. But now we're back in a similar place in the thread so...

If your idea of god is "another name for reality" then how are you religious at all? Believing in reality isn't a religion, it's atheism.

Where we seem to be, with traditional faiths is that over time people go one of two ways. They go fundamentalist, or they go floppy. And floppiness always asks the question, at what point is your faith so floppy that it's no such thing? (at what point are you using blocks from your lego race car in a model of a dinosaur, but still saying it's a race car)

If your idea of god is "another name for reality" then how are you religious at all? Believing in reality isn't a religion, it's atheism.

Christianity, at the more liberal end, seems to be heading towards a sort of pantheism, with some moral guidance from Jesus's teachings.

None of which is incompatible with the concept of God.

To be fair, once you expand the definition of 'God' to include everything and more ... you can't 'lose' the debate. As long as not required to give self-contradicting evidence.

ie
'Show me God'?
(Points at rock/tree/self/star)
'Show me 'not God'?
(Points at, er...)

None of which is incompatible with the concept of God.

If you claim god is responsible for the big bang you have to state what is responsible for god.

That's why it's incompatible.

Just one example. But of course you know this. This and other perfectly delineated refutations of the religious argument, have been presented time and again in all the threads in which you yourself have taken part whilst you tread and retread your tedious attempts at manipulating the discussion.

Whilst ignoring the ones you don't want to deal with.

Classic troll behaviour and for that reason, ahm oot (as they say in the land of the hot Mars bar).

Very good question Northwind. It certainly fits with my own ideas of subjective reality.

For people to believe in something I think it has to offer them something. So fundamentalism offers something that fundamentalists like.

Molgrips

SOME religious people. Not all religious people are very bright. I don't think those ideas are endorsed by all believers.

Praying to god for help with your everyday life is actually a pretty mainstream idea in most christian faiths.

Its only when you point out the moral absurdity of 'gods' apparent value system (as I did above) that this becomes something that some claim isn't "endorsed by most believers".

I think the root of the problem is that "god" will remain ill defined as long as it helps religious people defend the concept.

He will at various times be everything between:
1. An all powerful being (who incidentally is portrayed as a man with a beard by his followers) who created the universe and knows everything and loves us, and will interfere in the world to make good things happen for us in our everyday lives (and will torture us for an infinite amount of time unless we love him back).
2. An unknowable, benign, ineffable thing that exists somewhere, for no definable reason and with no discernable effect on the physical world, and moves in 'mysterious' ways beyond our understanding.

Why don't believers pick a place on the continuum, and tell us what they actually believe in?

They want a god type (1) who is powerful and can control the natural world, but then want to use god type (2) to absolve him of responsibility when nature (by storm, earthquake, drought or disease) kills the innocent.

So choose.

Rather than criticise atheists for their 'wrong' image of god, tell us what he actually is?

I await your clear, concise, internally consistent, morally unassailable creations.

Otherwise I fear it may be "special pleading olympics" all the way down.

The definition of religious, rationaist or atheist is a catch all for some kind of belief system. At the end of the day all these are human constructions so equally valid to answer the question what is my purpose in life and how should I live my life?

All are based on stuff that humans have created in their own brain which is not the real world but a projection/model that our brain creates from the input of our senses added to our own brains workings.

That the world was created out of nothing via a false vacuum is as satisfying to my mind as saying it was built by god. I don't really understand a false vacuum as how can nothing be something and who made god?

Q:( for the religious types ) ...
As you get older do you worry more about death ..or is this something you are looking forward to ?
I'm only asking this as surely the end game is a better "life" for you in whatever heaven you believe in ..and you must constantly be wondering if you have done enough to book your ticket..
Also while some of you are making your observations would it be possible to revert to "simple speak"..for those amongst us who haven't swallowed a dictionary for breakfast ..because rather than being impressed by your own perceived intellect..it comes over as being rather dull.
I've seen a lot of quotes in this " discussion " from hundreds of years ago ...I will leave you with one which came to light last month ..
"Once we've made sense of our ( own) world we want to go and **** up everybody elses because his or her truth doesnt match mine.
But this is the problem...truth is individual calculation which means because we all have different perspectives..there isn't just one single truth is there? "
The opening line from the album "To The Bone "..Steven Wilson.
Let's dance... 😀

Q:( for the everybody types ) ...
As you get older do you worry more about death ..or is this something you are looking forward to ?
I'm only asking this as surely the end game is [s]a better "life"[/s] you have led a fulfilling life the matches your morals and belief system for you in whatever heaven/perfect world you believe in ..and you must constantly be wondering if you have done enough to [s]book your ticket[/s] have led a good life..

Q:( for the religious types ) ...
As you get older do you worry more about death ..or is this something you are looking forward to ?

TBH This doesn't greatly figure in the equation. I worry about it (or not) about as much as anybody else does, I'd imagine.
I certainly don't look forward to it. Neither do i think that i'm racking up points for some kind of entrance exam as you seem to suggest.

It's more of a comfort following the death of others if truth be told.

Praying to god for help with your everyday life is actually a pretty mainstream idea in most christian faiths.

I have seen this a lot yes. To me "God, give me strength" seems reasonable. "God, get rid of this cold please" does not.

Why don't believers pick a place on the continuum, and tell us what they actually believe in?

I think the majority of people (atheist or otherwise) don't pay that much attention to their own thought processes.

All are based on stuff that humans have created in their own brain which is not the real world but a projection/model that our brain creates from the input of our senses added to our own brains workings.

Exactly - well put.

truth is individual calculation which means because we all have different perspectives..there isn't just one single truth is there? "

IMO the only possible hypothesis given the evidence!

It's more of a comfort following the death of others if truth be told.

Religious people close to me seem to struggle much more with death than non-religious people close to me.

Have we reached the point in STW religion threads where the interesting discussion happens? I hope so.

GEDA - Member

The definition of religious, rationaist or atheist is a catch all for some kind of belief system.

Sorry, but that's not true- atheism isn't belief, it's the absence of belief.

(some crusading atheists really do seem to have atheism as a religion, I always think they're not truly atheists at all but antitheists, they believe so strongly in their disbelief)

I think atheism is poorly defined too tbh.

A genuine equestion for the "how can you believe in imaginary sky fairy" types.

Is it OK to believe in an actual, historically documented human being who had some nice things to say about how they thought people should behave to live a good life?

You don't need to believe that they were possessed of any mystical powers or anything.

Only that they were real people, who must have been considered pretty hot shit by their contemporaries to be remmembered after all this time, who dispensed real lessons which might still resonate with people hundred or even thousands of years later?

Perhaps because you sound like an agnostic, Molgrips.

GEDA..
Was that meant as a genuine reply ?
Re-writing some of my post certainly didn't provide an answer to the the question that I had posed ..or was that you being a goody little two shoes in the eyes of your god?
Perchy..thanks for the genuine reply ..Im failing to see how you can take comfort in the death of others ..but that's just me..
I have generally been left grief stricken ..and time not faith has eased the pain

Only that they were real people, who must have been considered pretty hot shit by their comtemporaries to be remmembered after all this time, who dispensed real lessons which might still resonate with people hundred or even thousands of years later?

Sorry, but that's not true- atheism isn't belief, it's the absence of belief.

(some crusading atheists really do seem to have atheism as a religion, I always think they're not truly atheists at all but antitheists, they believe so strongly in their disbelief)

I don't think that is really true. Human life has no function so could been seen as pointless so we all look for some point to life otherwise we would not do stuff. Our morals and beliefs/motivations are at their base full of contradictions and inconsistencies. Some people might be atheists but live their lives with some belief that certain behaviors are the right thing to do.

Im failing to see how you can take comfort in the death of others

Pretty sure everyone knows that's not what I meant.

What I meant was that it's a more comforting thought that someone you have loved and lost continues to exist in some form rather than having permenantly ceased to exist.

"hodgynd" that was a very very genuine reply. Who is goody two shoes??? 🙂 I think your question could have been expanded as everybody wants to think that their life is/was some how worth it. Pointing a finger at religious people is a bit short sighted when all motivations basically are made up/created by us.

Growing up as a catholic, older catholics dealing with the death of a close one were evenly split between:

"It made me lose my faith"
"If it weren't for my faith, I don't know how I'd have got through it."
"It was a great test of my faith, but God likes to test us doesn't he?"

(And of course plenty of nuance in between.)

If I'm honest, for me, because I only remember feeling affection for one grandparent (one I never knew and the other two lived in Manchester for most of my childhood - so I didn't really know them - although apparently as a 5 or 6 year old when we visited, I had a great relationship and mutual fondness with my maternal granddad), the thought that granny Darcy had gone to heaven after a horrible battle with a brain tumour [i][b]was[/b][/i] very comforting and I can understand coming up with something else mythical - "she/he's always with us" type thing for a young child who doesn't quite get the concept of death yet for the loss of a close one.

I've often thought that to have faith must be a great thing - to know when bad things happen that there's an underlying reason (even knowing that you don't understand it) must be a great comfort when times are hard, there's been a time or two where I'd wished I had faith. Lot of respect for those of genuine faith, and within the limited experience of one person's life, those I've come across have always been in the upper echelons of the most kindly, patient and giving people I know. Make of that what you will.

Death being absolute is very comforting to me. It means I don't have to worry about hell (or heavan which sounds worse) coming back as a bed bug or any other such horror.

Correct thread now, Darcy. 8)

Perchy
I'm also pretty sure that as a stand alone line( and taken out of context) folks can also see it wasn't meant in the way you have interpreted it.

It just shows though ..genuine confusion in the space of few minutes ..we only see what we want to see..

Sorry, but that's not true- atheism isn't belief, it's the absence of belief.
(some crusading atheists really do seem to have atheism as a religion, I always think they're not truly atheists at all but antitheists, they believe so strongly in their disbelief)

I don't think that is really true. Human life has no function so could been seen as pointless so we all look for some point to life otherwise we would not do stuff. Our morals and beliefs/motivations are at their base full of contradictions and inconsistencies. Some people might be atheists but live their lives with some belief that certain behaviors are the right thing to do.

Being atheist means not believing in god(s). It does not mean anything else (such as believing human life has no function).

I think in the US and especially in those areas where the overwhelming majority are religious, there is more of an atheist identity which is about people needing to feel some support for their views (note not 'beliefs'). And some religious folk size on this 'identity' to say look they're just like us (but with the wrong beliefs). Well, psychologically they may be in that we're all human, and they may even be part of a small 'p' political movement. But that does not make atheism a belief system.

I don't know if atheism even needs a word. I'm atapdancinspidersatthebottomofmygardenist too I guess, I don't think about these things that often.

Speaking as someone who once had a close working relationship with a very creative and intelligent person who was diagnosed as having a "schizo-affective disorder" and claimed in all seriousness that the voice in his head was "from hell, baby" but refused his medication and eventually threw himself under a train, if I ever met this "Chief Excorcist" I'd feel strongly impelled to punch the * straight in the face.

Woppit, if you're still reading this thread, what I am about to say is not in any way meant to convince you of the idea of an exorcist, but I do want you to know that

a) I, personally, agree with you, insofar as your late colleague lost his life because of a mental illness, and it is both insulting and a load of b***s to suggest that it was something like possession.

b) The Church, however, does not equate mental illness with possession. It is true that it probably did at one time - long before any of us knew what mental illness was. Today, however, before the idea of exorcism would even be raised, the Church would ask for a full, independent, physical and psychiatric evaluation, alongside looking into a person's social history, etc.

c) In other words, it's not like there are priests out there - appointed by the Vatican or otherwise - running around declaring people to be possessed and 'casting out devils'.

Now remember: I am not saying any of this to 'convince' you of anything. I just wanted to clarify a few things before you punched out the Vatican's Chief Exorcist (although you may want to do so for other reasons).

why is this still going? get outside and forget this BS.

GEDA - Member

I don't think that is really true. Human life has no function so could been seen as pointless so we all look for some point to life otherwise we would not do stuff. Our morals and beliefs/motivations are at their base full of contradictions and inconsistencies. Some people might be atheists but live their lives with some belief that certain behaviors are the right thing to do.

Yep, but that's not just atheism. Atheism is just the bit about not believing in any gods, everything else is other things you do at the same time. Atheists don't lack a moral (or immoral) code or an ethos or an inspiration any more than the religious get all of theirs from their faith (or for that matter, that all of theirs is compatible with their faith)

why is this still going? get outside and forget this BS.

it's not like there are priests out there - appointed by the Vatican or otherwise - running around declaring people to be possessed and 'casting out devils'.

I saw exorcisms at a Christian festival, Spring Harvest, in the 1990s.

The other day I saw a young girl coming down the staircase at the station with a croped white top on - that certainly made me think that there must be a god after all...

The other day I saw a young girl coming down the staircase at the station with a croped white top on - that certainly made me think that there must be a god after all...

hallelujah!