[Closed] Anyone for another religion thread?

I don't know what that article says but I'm going to assume it tells me I'm ignorant because I'm an atheist.

[s]So, atheists are ignorant and prejudiced, and make sweeping assumptions based on almost no evidence?[/s]

This can only end badly.

Haha good one!

Oldnpastit did you read the article? It tells the results of a study.

On the ninth, whilst remembering a previous well-known event of religious slaughtering, we're told that religious people are slaughtering other religious people over in Burma, apparently because they're not properly religious people like the religious people who are doing the slaughtering...

I wonder why it is you never hear about atheists slaughtering other atheists for not being the proper sort of atheist.

Too many 'militant' atheists have read a bit too much Dawkins, which seems to turn them into dicks.

Some of us have no belief in god, but manage to not be dicks.

Article that suggests athiests don't know much about what believers believe, but make assumptions instead.

Article being based around

A YouGov poll, commissioned by Newman University in Birmingham

The University is named after the 19th century religious figure Cardinal Newman

Provenance, Provenance, Provenance.

So in answer to

Anyone for another religion thread?

No, I'm alright thanks.

I'm a Christian. I go to church. It makes me happy. It works for me.
I have no interest whatsoever in trying to convince anyone else that it's what they should do.
I don't give a monkeys hump what anyone else chooses to believe. That's their business.

It's not about who's right or wrong. It's about what works for the individual.
I'm done with this thread now because not one single person will gain any wisdom from it.

molgrips - Member

Article that suggests athiests don't know much about what believers believe, but make assumptions instead.

TBH I'm not that surprised, it's very hard as an atheist to correlate what people who claim to follow a religion say and do, with the religion they claim to follow. The gaps are often so big that to an outsider it's more like the person doesn't follow that faith at all. It's like buying a handlebar and claiming you're now a cyclist.

(that isn't aimed at any one person btw; I have a lot of respect for people with profound and consistent faith. But sometimes they seem like the minority, or maybe it's just that so many of the people who shout loudest about religion seem to fall into the lip-service category.)

And after all, believers often struggle with the fact that atheists don't believe anything after all (rather than believing that there is no god) I was raised roughly Church of Scotland and tbf I think I follow the moral code of that faith more closely than a lot of people who say they're christian; it's just that I do it because I think it's right and good. I've kept the bits I like and thrown out the rest, I just can't claim to be religious.

Article that suggests athiests don't know much about what believers believe, but make assumptions instead.

You're making a rash generalisation about a particular demographic based on an article studying that demographic's rash generalisations?

I may be back later, but for now I've got to do the ironing.

Article that suggests athiests don't know much about what believers believe, but make assumptions instead.

I was brought up C of E, confirmation, Church School etc, so I know more than I need to.
I think there's a good moral code in The Bible, and that it was essentially a book of rules to help in an uncertain time. It explained to the people of the time the two big mysteries - Where we come from and what happens when we die - and gave sensible rules to live by. There's a lot of sense in it.
But people try to read too much into it. It's just a book.
I don't and never really have believed in 'god'. It always seemed a bit far fetched to me, but I have nothing against the teachings or general gist of it, but without man's belief, there is no god.
I have no problem with any religion, as long as nobody tries to force it on me, I'm happy to live and let live.

rather than believing that there is no god

Point of note here whilst we're discussing not understanding each other: It's not that we believe there is no god, rather that we don't believe that there is a god. Atheism does not require a belief system.

They lost me after the first paragraph, I stumbled through the rest of the article which had nothing to do with the opening paragraph or the headline..

What Cougar says. I don't need to know what believers believe to confirm my position of non-belief.

Though having dipped my toe in the article it's refreshing to see that many accept it isn't necessary to take every word in the book as "gospel" (see what I did there?).

They lost me after the first paragraph,

They're basically saying that some atheists believe that Xtians believe in creationism, and in some cases they're incorrect.

Didn't need a study, I could've told you that.

I ****ing hate them intolerant ****s. String the ****ers up.

You're making a rash generalisation about a particular demographic

I'm definitely not. I'm posting what the study found, because it's interesting. I'm not making any assertions. I reported what the article suggested.

So rather than taking me down, why not discuss the idea that it presents, which is that many atheists may be making incorrect assumptions about believers.

I'm posting what the study found

No you aren't. You said, [i]"Article that suggests athiests don't know much about what believers believe, but make assumptions instead."[/i] There's a "some" missing in that sentence (in fact, there's two).

why not discuss the idea that it presents, which is that many atheists may be making incorrect assumptions about believers.

That's better.

a conflict between science and religion

I think that's at the heart of the article and if not, it's the bit that stuck with me. My grandad was a scientist and a Scottish protestant. His career was something I could dream about but will never have.

His library was stuffed full of books exploring exactly this area. Lewis Carroll's works were the only readable ones.

The divisiveness doesn't have to exist. We can have both.

The good thing is that non believers are now in the majority in the UK - 53% in recent a survey. One day it'll be 100%...

As an atheist and someone who is somewhat artistic, it's a very disturbing article.

'continues to inspire artists and writers. But according to a groundbreaking new survey, it is also at the heart of a deep misunderstanding between religious and non-religious Britons.'

There's no misunderstanding, some religious artworks are truly beautiful.

That's not justification for religion. That's just beautiful art.

The whole article is complete junk and really badly phrased, it's an article about how religion is on the decline, ok great, but why frame it in such a way?

Atheist here, hi.

Interesting article though it does make some big assumptions on the data. As mentioned above, it's also been commissioned by a Catholic university so is far from unbiased.

It does make an interesting point on one thing that I struggle with and that is people picking and choosing which bits of a religion they want to believe. In my head you're either all in or you're all out. I just can't get my head round saying "well, I believe that part but not that one as it doesn't sit with by beliefs/the modern world". Do you not either believe the Good Book or not?

Peterpoddy....

"It explained to the people of the time the two big mysteries - Where we come from and what happens when we die - and gave sensible rules to live by. There's a lot of sense in it."

So how relevant is this book today?

Case in point....

Leviticus 19:19
'You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together.

So im not allowed to wear a cotton/polyester shirt? Nor should I be drinking milk from the abomination that is the "Holstein Friesian." And what about my Allotment? I've got carrots planted in the same field as cabbages?

Sensible rules indeed!! LOL

Am I going to hell?

religion is on the decline

It is a peculiar article and the writing is a bit weird.

But it's certainly the case that people of faith are regularly "beaten up" online and that's terribly wrong.

I believe that part but not that one as it doesn't sit with by beliefs/the modern world". Do you not either believe the Good Book or not?

And every Relgious person does the same, hence aggravation, various sects and sometimes war.

If only there could be a universal code of ethics, where people agree that some things are inhumane.

user-removed - Member

.

It is a peculiar article and the writing is a bit weird.

It's seems to be an entirely false premise - atheists assume Christians don't believe in evolution. Turns out Christians* do believe in evolution.

*They are pick and mix Christians and tehcnically apostates. Therefore not Christians, therefore atheists are right.

But it's certainly the case that people of faith are regularly "beaten up" online and that's terribly wrong.

And yet you don't see Atheists lining up outside churches and mosques or places they disapprove of trying to shame or convert believers from their wicked ways. You are always going to have people getting "beaten up" when they are trying to argue something that is completely dependent on faith and has no evidence to support it.

The good thing is that non believers are now in the majority in the UK - 53% in recent a survey. One day it'll be 100%...

I very much doubt it. Atheism is on the rise and Christianity is falling, sure, but Islam is rising too (figures doubled between the last two censuses IIRC), and their followers tend to be a lot less ambivalent towards their religion than many who identify as Christian because they go to mass every Christmas. I can't see the majority of Muslims going "eh, you know what, we were wrong all this time, let's all be atheists."

Quoting Leviticus is classic online atheist not understanding Christianity behaviour.

The number of Muslims is still relatively small, and the longer they live here the less likely that are to remain much more that cultural Muslims, I'd guess.

I'm just pissed off they cited artists and writers in the opener.. Clearly an article intended to provoke, but it seems that what journalists do these days, never mind those pesky facts, we'll open by dragging in a completely unrelated demographic.

The 'writer' in question should ask themselves a few questions.

User removed, how on earth can anyone be beaten up online? Challenged, abused textually, confronted yes, which might leave them offended, but beaten up?

Believers with blind faith take affront far too easily in my opinion. Dare I say the resort to calling it abuse because they simply don't have the argument to counter it convincingly.

why not discuss the idea that it presents, which is that many atheists may be making incorrect assumptions about believers.

Of course they do, everyone makes incorrect assumptions about things all the time. However, as believers are not all the same then they is no one way a believer would act or follow their faith.

I could assume what I think a Christian gets up to but as some are genuinely nice people who are good to others, don't judge etc,. there are quite a few who are nuts (see southern states of America).
So which one do I assume is Christian as they both sure think they are ?

Nope..

miketually - Member

The number of Muslims is still relatively small, and the longer they live here the less likely that are to remain much more that cultural Muslims, I'd guess.

What are you basing that on?

The number of Muslims is still relatively small, and the longer they live here the less likely that are to remain much more that cultural Muslims, I'd guess.

They're also a lot younger, on the whole. I think I read somewhere a while back that the average age of a UK Muslim is 25, of a UK Christian it's 50. Or something like that.

The surge in Islam's followers here is in no small part due to birthrate; kids being born to Muslim parents are being raised as Muslim, whereas kids being raised by nominal Christians don't really give much of a toss about religion one way or another. Meanwhile, many of the devout churchgoing Christians are dying of old age.

Cougar - Moderator

They're also a lot younger, on the whole. I think I read somewhere a while back that the average age of a UK Muslim is 25, of a UK Christian it's 50. Or something like that.

The surge in Islam's followers here is in no small part due to birthrate; kids being born to Muslim parents are being raised as Muslim, whereas kids being raised by nominal Christians don't really give much of a toss about religion one way or another. Meanwhile, many of the devout churchgoing Christians are dying of old age.

It's also more difficult (culturally speaking) to walk away from Islam. Have a read on www.exmna.com or listen to Sarah Haider or Maajid Nawaz or Ayan Hirsi Ali.

https://www.theexmuslim.com/2017/07/14/love-hate-muslim-communities-response-gay-wedding/

Let me get this right- a 'poll' found that the vast majority of (polled) 'athiests' believe that a vast majority of Christians reject evolution?

In the same way that results from a poll of 'Christians' would depend upon the sample group/flavour of Christians polled?

Who is the athiest atheist? Is it like the Christianist Christian?

On another note - I'd maybe like to debate Dr Elsdon-Baker 🙂

What are you basing that on?

Partly gut instinct. Partly the fact that Christian beliefs declined here over generations. Partly from the behaviour of Muslim friends when at uni.

Partly gut instinct. Partly the fact that Christian beliefs declined here over generations. Partly from the behaviour of Muslim friends when at uni.

Are you talking about people becoming lip-service Muslims in the same manner as we have currently with other religions? That's an interesting one for sure.

I think perhaps one of two things will happen: Either we'll end up with some sort of Western version of Islam which will harmoniously blend in with the rest of society, or the EDL will be proven right.

As I said earlier there is a lot of younger Muslims, and I'd speculate that the more rigid views will generally be held by the older generation, so it's in the hands of the Millennials really. Are we as a country going to raise a generation of more liberal Muslims, or are we going to entrench them further? It'll all hinge on how well society is treating them right now I suppose.

Erm. Oh.

Islam in the UK is probably where the Anglican or Roman Catholic churches were fifty years ago? But, they're surrounded by atheists to an extent that Christians of fifty years ago were not, which should make leaving the religion easier?

The New Atheists assume Christians believe in a God of the gaps/placeholder to cover lack of current scientific knowledge. Hence the science vs faith dichotomy.
But Christians worship the creator and sustain-er of the universe, including the bits we already know about, like the law of gravity.

I'm a Christian. I go to church. It makes me happy. It works for me.
I have no interest whatsoever in trying to convince anyone else that it's what they should do.
I don't give a monkeys hump what anyone else chooses to believe. That's their business.

To an extent, but Christianity is a proselytizing religion, I will make you fishers of men, etc

Well of course the C of E is for people who don't actually believe in God.

Athiest here, yo. Who was there to witness all the Old Testament goings on? Did Adam and Eve make notes on their downfall? Blind faith in a book is utter cobblers, nowt wrong with assuming a code to live by but there's any number of good thick books that could be analysed and each scene made a Parabel. Take Lord if the Rings for example. It's teachings include eat a second breakfast and don't **** with big spiders. Food for thought I'm sure you'll agree...

Well done, trollgrips.

Religion is like a penis. Its fine to have one, its OK to be proud of it. Just please don't wave it around in public and try to stuff it down peoples throats

Article that suggests athiests don't know much about what believers believe, but make assumptions instead.

Did you read it?

Some atheists posting here are confirming the survey being reported in the article.

Cougar - Moderator

Point of note here whilst we're discussing not understanding each other: It's not that we believe there is no god, rather that we don't believe that there is a god. Atheism does not require a belief system.

Yep. I think you were agreeing with me/reinforcing my point but I'm not 100% so just to add, that's exactly what I meant.

Malvern Rider - Member

Let me get this right- a 'poll' found that the vast majority of (polled) 'athiests' believe that a vast majority of Christians reject evolution?

And this is the problem. Christianity specifically contradicts evolution. The christian creation myth is disproved by evolution. That's why it was such an incredible hot potato when it was first mooted. Of course, that's old testament and people draw a line between that and new- but it was the word of god.

So if you're a christian, but you disregard [i]one[/i] part of the bible, as many do then- what's making the other bits that you haven't disregarded special? Why should we respect faith-based distaste for homosexuality, for instance, from someone who has other positions that are contrary to that faith.

In some ways I find fundamentalism worthy of respect. Like Rees Mogg's position on abortion- I think it's horribly wrong but he stands by it and he has what to him are good reasons.

NOrthwind

Rees Mogg is still a pick and chose christian. "It is easier for a (rope of) camel (hair) to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to go to heaven"

"I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."

"If thou lend money to any of My people, even to the poor with thee, thou shalt not be to him as a creditor; neither shall ye lay upon him interest."

In some ways I find fundamentalism worthy of respect. Like Rees Mogg's position on abortion- I think it's horribly wrong but he stands by it and he has what to him are good reasons.

atheists have read a bit too much Dawkins, which seems to turn them into dicks.

reading [i]any[/i] Dawkins turns anybody into a dick TBH, you don't need to be an atheist.

I'm glad to be an agnostic

Holding up Dawkins as a posterboy representative for all Atheists is about as relevant as quoting Leviticus to represent modern Christianity. Ie, not at all, they're both lazy cheap-shot arguments.

I'm glad to be an agnostic

Are you sure?

This latest religion beating thread at least started with some sort of a point.

But really. You don't have to have faith but it's important not to be stupid or hateful isn't it?

Cougar - Leviticus is more than a little odd but the bible is either the word of god or it isn't and the other two quotes are new testament IIRC

Leviticus is fun 'cos its so completely bonkers

Yep suits me sir

Holding up Dawkins as a posterboy representative for all Atheists is about as relevant as quoting Leviticus to represent modern Christianity. Ie, not at all, they're both lazy cheap-shot arguments.

Dawkins is relevant as the religion he attacks is the religion inaccurately imagined by the people surveyed.

This latest religion beating thread at least started with some sort of a point.

To get back to the original point of the thread, I'm an atheist and I think I have a pretty good idea of mainstream UK Anglican beliefs, but I'd agree that many atheists don't.

This latest religion beating thread

Are we reading the same thread?

If anything, it's (at least initially) an atheist-bashing thread. Sure, we've got the usual suspects being inflammatory for the luls, but discussing <> bashing, non?

I think most folk who are atheists actually know a fair bit about religion. I would love to see the methodology as well as Its been commissioned by a religious institution to meet their needs

Its been commissioned by a religious institution to meet their needs

... allegedly.

But yeah, I'd like to see the working also.

No you aren't. You said, "Article that suggests athiests don't know much about what believers believe, but make assumptions instead."

I simply told you what the article suggested. I didn't say that I agreed with it. Very important distinction. I read it, and shared it, because it's relevant to the arguments we have on here. I have no idea what percentage of atheists believe that about Christians - I didn't do the study. I have no idea how well the study was conducted.

But anyway:

A lot of atheists are exactly confirming the findings of the study. That is - you don't really understand what Christians believe.

Christianity specifically contradicts evolution.

No it doesn't. There is no one Christian creed, is there? This is exactly the point. You don't have to treat the bible as literal truth. You just don't. Only a minority of Christians do. We've got the Pope telling us that evolution and the big bang are real - how much more proof do you need that Christianity doesn't contradict evolution?

Rather ironic though that some atheist posters are getting the hump about being told what they believe, whilst simultaneously doing it to Christians 😆

molgrips - Member

We've got the Pope telling us that evolution and the big bang are real - how much more proof do you need that Christianity doesn't contradict evolution?

That's not proof that christianity doesn't contradict evolution- it's proof that many christians are prepared to ignore inconvenient or outmoded parts of their holy text, while simultaneously saying that other things they believe are the word of god and have meaning because it's in the bible. If anything you're just arguing my point.

The other thing about this is that it's a moving target; today's modern christians are very often recognisably different from 1970s modern christians, and 1930s modern christians. My gran considered most of her practitioners to be apostate and wanted them kicked out of the church. In 2050, what other things will have been abandoned as outmoded or no longer relevant? I reckon that the overwhelming majority of popes would consider the current one a heretic.

Molgrips - Christianity states quite clearly that the earth is 4000 yrs old and created in 8 days. Christianity also clearly states the bible is the word of god.

Some "Christians" try to explain the discrepancy between scientific knoledge and the bible as allegory or something similar. Thats dancing around the fact that the bible is bunkum.

Molgrips - Christianity states quite clearly that the earth is 4000 yrs old and created in 8 days. Christianity also clearly states the bible is the word of god.

Firstly, no, it doesn't state the earth is 4,000 years old. That number (actually 6,000) was calculated by someone adding up the ages of all the people listed in the old testament AFAIK. Secondly, where does 'Christianity' clearly state that the bible is the word of God? Since when does Christianity have one single spokesperson?

Pope Francis has said that the big bang and evolution are real. Are you seriously claiming you, an atheist, know more about what Christianity thinks than THE ACTUAL POPE? Think about how ridiculous you are being!

If there's one person who can claim to have authority on Christianity, it's the Pope! I know you can be cocky at times but claiming you know more about Christianity than the Pope takes the biscuit 😆

The survey wasn't about what the Bible says, it was about what atheists think Christians believe.

I know many Christians, including one with a physics PhD. As far as I know, none of them believe that Genesis is anything other than allegory.

Who's the pop?

I believe in God. Just like I believe there are concepts like conscience, intelligence, love, fear, shame etc. They are all in your head and nowhere else. Pretty hard to deny them. So prayer is like talking to yourself and thinking about stuff. A bit like meditation. No wonder it helps.

When you die the lights go out.

So I guess I believe in God but I don't believe in God.

perchypanther - Member
I'm a Christian. I go to church. It makes me happy. It works for me.
I have no interest whatsoever in trying to convince anyone else that it's what they should do.
I don't give a monkeys hump what anyone else chooses to believe. That's their business.

It's not about who's right or wrong. It's about what works for the individual.

Same here. I'm happy for anyone and happy to know and even be a friend of that someone, if you're living a decent life, as a decent person, in a decent manner. End of.

My own weirdo mysticism is my own lookout, and its entirely personal and subjective, based on my own experiences. You may well have decided that a voice speaking to you from nowhere as you walked along, reassuring you that its all part of some meaningful design and just to be zen about it, leaving you with a sense of calm more profound than anything else you ever experienced, was actually the onset of some kind of mental breakdown- for me, it was an answer to a question I'd been asking 'something' for years.

YMMV. But hey, just dont be a dick, its all anyone can ask of you.

xx

If there's one person who can claim to have authority on Christianity, it's the Pope!

Catholicism maybe, but there are many more flavours of Christianity who think that the Pope ain't all that.

Molgrips - its how its written - god says, the lord said etc. sorry about the 4000 yr thing tho - yo are right on that.

Otherwise this :

That's not proof that christianity doesn't contradict evolution- it's proof that many christians are prepared to ignore inconvenient or outmoded parts of their holy text, while simultaneously saying that other things they believe are the word of god and have meaning because it's in the bible. If anything you're just arguing my point.

I wonder why it is you never hear about atheists slaughtering other atheists for not being the proper sort of atheist.

No, just the wrong sort of [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor ]nationality[/url].

And the wrong sort of [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulak ]class[/url].

😀

Incidentally, I should add that I don't actually think atheists kill people any more than religious people kill people. People kill people, and use any excuse they can to do it.

perchypanther - Member
If there's one person who can claim to have authority on Christianity, it's the Pope!
Catholicism maybe, but there are many more flavours of Christianity who think that the Pope ain't all that.

And I would add- its even more complex than that if you're actually a Catholic- which Pope?

The day I walked into the house- I think I was 16- and argued with my 'only RC goes to heaven!' uncle that, as RC, we weren't even the direct descendants of the church of Peter but we were the splitters! was one of the greatest days of my life. As a profound, lifelong Catholic- he didn't even know that. No-one had told him.

Follow your heart and try and commune with whatever is out there, its just words in a book, the real words are written elsewhere.

Look at G'Kar for an example of how the words get warped. Coffee stains....

Molgrips - its how its written - god says, the lord said etc.

It says that in the Bible, yes. But if you don't believe everything in the Bible is literal truth, then you don't need to believe it just because it says that....

circular arguement molgrips. If the bible says " god said" and its contradicted by science and you don't believe that bit how can you believe any bit.

Its not a pick and mix.

SaxonRider - Member

I wonder why it is you never hear about atheists slaughtering other atheists for not being the proper sort of atheist.

No, just the wrong sort of nationality.

And the wrong sort of class.

😀

Those atrocities weren't perpetrated because of the absence of a belief in a god, or in the name of atheism. When a christian kills someone it needn't be in the name of god, similarly when an atheist kills someone it's not in the name of the non existence of god. Communism is a belief system that allows you to allign with a group, target another group and if they are successful kill them and take their stuff. In that respect it's like a religion.

If the bible says " god said" and its contradicted by science and you don't believe that bit how can you believe any bit.

Easily. You can believe that the stories are allegory if you like. Why shouldn't you? Who says you have to take it all literally?

You could treat it as what it is, which is a collection of historical writings about religion and events. And you could look for the word of God buried within the words of men. If you wanted to.

If Christians want to do that then they can. It's not up to you to tell Christians how to worship, is it?

Its not a pick and mix.

Yes it is.