The lack of plan/contingency/thought *was* the remainers, David Cameron was responsible for the drafting of the question which gave no detail whatsoever about what ‘leave’ actually meant. The remainers were certain they’d win and saw no need to provide any detail on what leaving might mean.
You seem to be confusing Cameron with “remainers” in general.
I'm saying he wasn't in the Leave campaign. Ergo leavers didn't write the question, ergo they can't be blamed for the woeful lack of detail in the question. I should have been much clearer about that, sorry.
Having said that Cameron was quite a high profile figure in the Remain campaign, by no means a leaver.
Lol at big n daft and Stewart. First up if you don’t understand the system used to elect mep’s just look it up. For contrast how easy is it to remove a Rees mogg from a safe tory seat
Both Farage and Hannan are top of their respective party's lists so based on the 2014 elections is would require a collapse in their party's share of more than 20% to get rid of them. Jacob Rees-Mogg's constituency was regarded as a tight marginal before 2010, he won by just under 10% in 2010 but has increased his lead to just under 19%. On this basis, Rees Mogg would be easier to get rid of that the aforementioned MEPs.
I’m more than happy to hear an alternative viewpoint if you’re able to provide one.
Why would remain plan to leave? There would have been plenty of time after the referendum to plan to leave and then activate article 50.
Instead article 50 was activated far too hastily, which has left us where we are now.
Alternative enough for you?
Why would remain plan to leave? There would have been plenty of time after the referendum to plan to leave and then activate article 50.
I think that the question should have been posed with enough detail that people knew what they were voting for. We still don't know what "leave" meant. I'm not alone in that view.
Instead article 50 was activated far too hastily, which has left us where we are now.
...by a remainer.
Sorry Mikewsmith, It's not incumbent on the electorate to understand the system used to elect MEP 's. The electorate either get it or they don't. It's the point I was trying to make on the thread I started asking "Have you ever voted in a European Parliament election? I haven't" Where I dared to question their authenticity, relevance and degree to which the EU parliament is responsible for the mess we all find ourselves in.
It's beyond Brexit, look at the problems every European country is facing, they could all ask the similar questions relating to the way the European parliament is elected and functions and how it relates to the national predicaments they find themselves in.
In calling big and daft a brexit troll for pointing out problems that might be systemic makes you look as blinkered as a brexit headbanger.
I think that the question should have been posed with enough detail that people knew what they were voting for. We still don’t know what “leave” meant. I’m not alone in that view.
The result should have gone back to Parliament and discussed until a consensus had been reached. Instead, you had a Government that tried to keep Parliament out of it, and a new PM whose modus operandi was the same as it was at the Home Office. You also have to consider the personnel that she surrounded herself with. Speaking of which:
…by a remainer.
OOB you are so predictable. Do you still believe that with what has happened in the last three years?
My parents voted the opposite way from their children and grandchildren in both the recent referendums. It hasn't been a problem we still talk politics just don't allow the conversation to drag on too long.
In my own experience the Brexit referendum didn't have the same heat in Scotland. A dull and low key remain campaign still easily beating leave.
No he delivered a perfect Brexit lead troll posting there, was perfect really picked out facts, offered no comparison to make then more or less resonable and then chucked some emotion at it.
I don't agree. I think he was bang on the money in articulating what leave voters think and where their concerns lie.
I mean, it has absolutely zero bearing on reality, of course. But it's a good example of what they believe to be true.
We did try, but we weren’t listened to. ‘It’ll be a huge mess’ was one of the arguments IIRC.
"Project fear."
If anyone is genuinely, seriously going to stand there at the eleventh hour and 59 minutes going "why did no-one warn us?" I'll be very torn between laughing in their face and slapping it really hard.
there’s zero value in deriding or undermining their views or then attacking them & calling them racists/stupid/gammons or whatever. That’s not going to help progress things. We should be listening to and getting under the skin of their concerns, and seeing what we as a society can do to help improve the situation that drives the fear.
Couldn't agree more with that.
We still don’t know what “leave” meant. I’m not alone in that view.
So you would want a fully fleshed out leave proposition which would require the negotiations to be done before holding it? Its up to people, as the electorate, to look at what was being proposed as potential leave options and decide which if any they should be associated with.
It’s not incumbent on the electorate to understand the system used to elect MEP ‘s
ermm yes it is if they want to whinge about it and blame the ****ing EU for a UK (or more specifically Great Britain) choice of voting systems.
there’s zero value in deriding or undermining their views or then attacking them & calling them racists/stupid/gammons or whatever. That’s not going to help progress things. We should be listening to and getting under the skin of their concerns, and seeing what we as a society can do to help improve the situation that drives the fear.
Couldn’t agree more with that.
Whilst me heart agrees, my head says **** em
Why bother? They’ve wanted to split the country in half, happy to pick fights with remainers and what were we called a year or so ago? Oh yeah snowflakes.
Well the winter of discontent has certainly ruffled your pasty cheeks.
I say keep the divide now. It’s what they all wanted, they’ve got it.
🤷♂️
Are we arguing again? Cool.
Fortunately I not longer have to bear my ex-wife’s side of the family (they all voted leave). Not that I mind that they voted leave particularly. It’s more that they are all, to a man and woman, the worst type of bigoted, racist, self serving and entitled bunch of cluster****s you could possibly imagine. Reading their hilarious attempts to now apply reasoning to their decisions on Facebook is somewhat akin to watching a small monkey trying to shag a football.
In my own experience the Brexit referendum didn’t have the same heat in Scotland. A dull and low key remain campaign still easily beating leave.
Interesting parallel. I currently live in England but my mother lives in Scotland and reports the same. Scotland is far more united on brexit than they were on independence and it is a better place for it than the rest of the UK. As someone who voted against independence (though since Brexit has changed her stance somewhat) she experienced quite a lot of animosity. The independent supporters in Scotland and the Brexit supports in England do have loosely similar socio-economic make up. In both situations the more middle class anti brexit and anti independence supporters could rightly be accused of being a bit high minded and the brexit and independence supporter more emotive, heart led and maybe irrational.
Whilst education clearly does not give you intelligence does the experience of it give you better resilience to debate? I would suggest the thing my degree taught me beyond everything else was an ability to perceive nuance, to doubt and health check source material and to debate without seeing it as a personal attack. In my wife's family at least it is the brexit voting family members that left school at 16 that can't be mature about it in their dealing with those that have differing opinions. Sure, it is easy to find examples in both camps that have behaved very badly (I've done it myself plenty) but speaking in generalities that's what I'm seeing.
ermm yes it is if they want to whinge about it and blame the **** EU for a UK (or more specifically Great Britain) choice of voting systems.
We can only choose the system to an extent, it has to be a form of proportional representation. We couldn't have FPTP, but we could have STV like in Northern Ireland.
So you would want a fully fleshed out leave proposition which would require the negotiations to be done before holding it? Its up to people, as the electorate, to look at what was being proposed as potential leave options and decide which if any they should be associated with.
No, what I think should have happened is nothing, until an existing or future party campaigned in a GE on a Leave ticket and (if they win a sufficient majority) pull us out. They propose it, they win a majority to do it, and they carry it out and take responsibility for it. That’s how representative democracy works.
However, if you think a referendum on this was a good idea then I think that the question should have been posed with enough detail that people knew what they were voting for. (Which is exactly what I said.)
Its up to people, as the electorate, to look at what was being proposed as potential leave options and decide which if any they should be associated with.
No it's not. And the perpetuation of this myth is what has brought us to this point.
It's up parliament, as the electorate's representatives, to look at what was being proposed as potential leave options and decide which if any they should be associated with.
This is, quite literally, their job. It's not our responsibility at all, if it were then we could all look forward to enjoying the 'brexit dividend' we'd save by disbanding parliament and turning Westminster into affordable housing.
James O Brian though – seriously no one has done more to stoke division than this man that I can recall in my lifetime.
Really? Just really? More than Farage and Tommy Robinson?
O'Brien has simply given the country a much needed slap round the face.
I couldn't give a shit about any Brexit supporter whining about division, leavers are the people who created that division, they can ****ing well find their own way to put the lid back on.
No it’s not. And the perpetuation of this myth is what has brought us to this point.
It’s up parliament ... This is, quite literally, their job.
+1.
And the perpetuation of this myth is what has brought us to this point.
Sorry but it isnt a myth. Once the decision was given to people to vote it was up to them to look at what was being proposed and decide which, if any, they wanted and how much they trusted the brexit elite to deliver.
Sorry but it isnt a myth. Once the decision was given to people to vote it was up to them to look at what was being proposed and decide which, if any, they wanted and how much they trusted the brexit elite to deliver.
Nope. Even after the referendum the responsibility and the decision still lay with Parliament, and as we have seen Parliament can do whatever they think it best, including remaining or kicking it into the long grass which is obviously what they're going to do. (One or other.)
The referendum was/is purely advisory, a poll, an indication.
Once the decision was given to people to vote it was up to them to look at what was being proposed
Oh, sure, if you're simply talking about casting a vote. That's how votes work, it's the responsibility of the electorate to vote according to their best judgements of course.
But with an advisory referendum it's still not their place to then mandate or demand anything though, that responsibility lies with parliament. Something something sovereignty something, remember? We had a court case and everything.
We're living in a time where people can scream about sovereignty and democracy, and in the next breath demand the will of the people be carried out irrespective of the wishes of parliament whilst simultaneously shouting down the notion of a people's vote to confirm what the will of the people actually is. You couldn't make it up, this country truly has lost it's ****ing mind.
Putting that another way, consider the question:
Are you in favour of parliamentary sovereignty [yes|no]?
If yes, then the "will of the people" is an irrelevance, parliament makes decisions in the best interests of the country. That is literally what sovereignty means.
If you believe that the will of the people must be obeyed at all costs then parliament is no longer sovereign. "Sovereignty is the full right and power of a governing body over itself, without any interference from outside sources or bodies." You can't have it both ways as these two things are mutually exclusive. Why do you hate sovereignty, traitor?
there’s zero value in deriding or undermining their views or then attacking them & calling them racists/stupid/gammons or whatever. That’s not going to help progress things.
Not sure what there is to "progress"? I'm not calling leavers ignorant, racist gammons because I imagine I'm changing their minds or turning them into caring lovely people 🙂
I’m not calling leavers ignorant, racist gammons
I’m not calling leavers ignorant, racist gammons. Just the ones who are. (-:
Are you in favour of parliamentary sovereignty [yes|no]?
They are two different contexts, this is just a really dumb question.
They are two different contexts, this is just a really dumb question.
It's hard to argue with such a robust, comprehensive and watertight rebuttal. I shall however attempt to respond in kind:
Your mum.
They are two different contexts, this is just a really dumb question.
Which context did Leave mean then? Surely as they brought it up they should have been specific about what exactly it was they were supporting?
Picking up a couple of things from earlier....
Actually mike, it came across a bit more as:
No idea what side of the argument B&D is on, but this is insightful…
…this is precisely the sort of thing that got their goat enough to vote.
In calling big and daft a brexit troll for pointing out problems that might be systemic makes you look as blinkered as a brexit headbanger.
If we are getting onto semantics of this I didn't call him a troll
No he delivered a perfect Brexit lead troll posting there, was perfect really picked out facts, offered no comparison to make then more or less resonable and then chucked some emotion at it.
What I was commenting on was a well put together post designed to engage people at an emotional level, it used just enough facts - you would be sooo angry if you knew these people were getting a pension - well lots of people get pensions it's part of a common work place agreement.
It set the tone and was bang on what the brexit campaign did so well take a fact or line out of context or just present it in a slightly different way and trigger a response.
Challenge that and you can't be disputing the facts - here is a printed version from the EU itself, by the time you have gone around in circles a few times the line is established.
Whether it is factual or not at this stage is unimportant. The question is why people voted the way they did. This is why. This is what they percieve.
inkster
Member
Sorry Mikewsmith, It’s not incumbent on the electorate to understand the system used to elect MEP ‘s. The electorate either get it or they don’t. It’s the point I was trying to make on the thread I started asking “Have you ever voted in a European Parliament election? I haven’t” Where I dared to question their authenticity, relevance and degree to which the EU parliament is responsible for the mess we all find ourselves in.
It's also not accurate to call it arcane, it's just not the FPTP system we use and is much hated in the UK at times 🙂 It's simply different.
Of course somebody jumped on that I'd picked the wrong example of Tory MP to unseat so pick one where they are in a seat so blue they don't even have to turn up and most will tick the blue box on the ballot regardless, they are best mates with the local party - you have near zero chance of getting them out even if they were found watching porn at work 😉 Those are at the level of Farage etc. in the system - set for life.
We all know people had reasons for voting leave, we also know it's really hard to admit you were wrong when faced with the evidence hence a lot of the doubling down.
The onus seems to being put on those who voted remain to be accepting and hold out the olive branch to heal a divide. You know what plenty have tried but if you keep on with the same lies and pretence then it's not going to end well.
Igave my leaver cousin a load of info on the proposed US / UK trade deal showing her what a disaster that would be for the NHS and agriculture. she has gone very quiet. Hopefully to have a wee think about it 'cos she is not stupid
personally I think voting leave was not a vote "for" something it was a vote against the status quo. As such it should have always been used as a lever to negotiate with the EU rather than a "sign from god" and reinforced by a political consensus that we must go out into the wilderness searching for a promised land. This may have attracted some fall-out but the UK is a parliamentary democracy and as such for all it's faults parliament should be taking the decisions for good or ill.
But I have no mandate, only one vote, and my views aren't going to change the current paradigm and the three main options
no deal: the opportunities for a managed no deal Brexit have been pissed up against the wall so unless we revoke, reset, spend 3 years and a lot of money it's too high a risk for any party as every hiccup will be blamed on the incumbent. EU/UK fudge the NI/Ireland issues for as long as they can. Leavers get blamed for everything including the weather
the deal: is only a two year transition, so we'll be back into chaos in 2021 when the deadline rushes towards us again. In two years time lots of people will still be wondering why they should care about NI. Businesses still fret about what next.
revoke: buys time, there is a political meltdown internally, no doubt a second referendum will be pointlessly proposed, everyone gets more polarised, Scots scramble for Indy Ref2 whilst still a EU member. There is at least some time to discuss the future of NI/Ireland and life beyond the Good Friday Agreement. Remainers get blamed for usurping the will of the people or some such rubbish
as for Farage's pension, I think it is a disgrace. The numbers are eye watering, would never survive in a UK political environment and don't get me onto their expenses https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10777196/MEPs-second-pension-scheme-how-it-works.html
as for Farage’s pension, I think it is a disgrace. The numbers are eye watering, would never survive in a UK political environment and don’t get me onto their expenses
It is but it absolutely does not justify throwing the entire thing out either. We all know there are some very hard conversations to be had but the myths and unicorns need to be stabled first.
Which context did Leave mean then?
In terms of Parliamentary sovereignty, they argued that the UK Parliament should have oversight/voting rights for all laws brought in effect in the UK. This can be contrasted with the present furore which is a question of whether the executive should have the primary right to promulgate laws and determine the legislative timetable.
It is not contradictory to believe in both of these propositions.
No more unelected.........
It is not contradictory to believe in both of these propositions.
But very rare for anyone to express it like that.... it normally sounds like whine whine whine I'm not allowed to be _____ist
I've only read the first page of this thread, and up until now I have not commented on any Brexit threads.
There are a lot of accusations coming from leave voters of vitriol and stupidity from the leave side, but in this particular STW bubble the vitriol and insults seem to be overwhelmingly coming from the remainers.
I voted remain and was very disappointed with the referendum result, I'm sure that some leave voters are racist and generally horrible, I'm also sure that plenty of leave voters are self-righteous morons too. Barbara Castle, a politician in my opinion worthy of admiration, was against joining the EEC, as it was then called, saying something like "Why should I give preferential treatment to a German or Italian over an Indian?" so a non-racist internationalist who opposed the joining the EEC/EU.
One of the brightest people I know voted leave, his rationale being that Europe is in relative long term economic decline and that Britain needs to adopt a truly internationalist outlook, I'm sceptical that this will happen and would rather the UK remained in the EU and pressed for reforms, but his is a reasoned, considered opinion.
Of course there are extremes of behaviour from some leave voters, but the general feeling on this forum that all leave voters are racist, stupid bigots is itself extremely narrow-minded, bigoted and stupid.
I don't think I'll be posting again on any Brexit threads so please feel free to flame away.
Leave means leave.
the general feeling on this forum that all leave voters are racist, stupid bigots
If you've read much of the discourse, you'd know that that's not what the majority of remainers on STW are saying. We've discussed this time and again. It's what leavers claim we are saying, but like most leave claims it's detached from reality.
We’ve discussed this time and again. It’s what leavers claim we are saying, but like most leave claims it’s detached from reality.
It helps to keep the narrative going, it's important to keep the divide going. Got to wonder where the strings are being pulled sometime, just who profits most from this?
Who profits - the rich tories - they will be able to continue with their tax avoidence ( new EU regs on this coming) They will make money from shuffling money around - rees mogg etc and of course they have to give something to their paymasters - US agribuisness and healthcare business as well as Murdoch who lets not forget bribe many of our MPs
look beyond that TJ it's not really the tories it's those who pay both sides. Ideology is powering this but some of those at the middle have very little
If you’ve read much of the discourse, you’d know that that’s not what the majority of remainers on STW
Given he's read one page of this and not engaged with any of the other threads then I'll bet on not having read much of the discourse
Of course there are extremes of behaviour from some leave voters, but the general feeling on this forum that all leave voters are racist, stupid bigots is itself extremely narrow-minded, bigoted and stupid.
An excellent summary.
I refer you to my previous reply.
I agree totally that suggesting "all leave voters are racist, stupid bigots is itself extremely narrow-minded, bigoted and stupid." But that's not what most people are suggesting. And to claim otherwise is, well, very meta.
An excellent summary.
Confirmation bias?
It's not like this thread has described a lot of difficult situations people have felt when they have to confront the fact close members of their family are racist and more.
If you’ve read much of the discourse, you’d know that that’s not what the majority of remainers on STW are saying. We’ve discussed this time and again. It’s what leavers claim we are saying, but like most leave claims it’s detached from reality.
Hmmmmm......
Even if you don’t believe the post-polls analysis, you only have to spend a few minutes on leave- and remain- forums or Facebook groups to see where all the illiterates, racists and believe-everything-they-readers are congregating.
All haddock are fish, that doesn't mean that all fish are haddock.
