[Closed] Anyone an electrician?

You need to test it and leabel them

Out of the ceiling you will have ( probably - depending on how its wired) switched live, permanent live (x2) and neutral and there should be an earth. What you have actually got you can only know by testing

Urgh! How do i test it? or do i just get a spark out?

Get a spark out if you are having to ask this question. It’s not worth the hassle or risk, and will give you piece of mind that it’s been sorted correctly

Electricians don't go to college for 4 years for nothing....

Electricians don’t go to college for 4 years for nothing….

Not sure I'd trust any electrician who took 4 years to learn how to wire a ceiling rose. Hateful things. You may need to replace with Wago connectors in a junction box or Wagobox in the ceiling cavity depending on whether there's any room for them inside your new fitting.

You may need to replace with Wago connectors in a junction box or Wagobox in the ceiling cavity depending on whether there’s any room for them inside your new fitting.

By the same token I'm not sure id take advice off a non sparky who can't fit one and needs suplimentary kit to do what the rose is designed to do and has done since ever.

An educated guess, without seeing it, you will probably have switched live and neutral in the twin and earth cable, and the separate black cable is a neutral.
So red to brown/Live, both blacks to blue/neutral.
To check, make sure the live wires hanging down are safe and not touching each other. Turn on the circuit breaker, check to see if any other lights, or fans are not working. I would say at least one will not work, as you have no neutral feed to it.
If all other lights are working, then the single black will be a live, or , a neutral that isnt connected to anything! You really need a meter to test it.

And how old is the new one you are fitting that still has red and black cabling?

By the same token I’m not sure id take advice off a non sparky who can’t fit one and needs suplimentary kit to do what the rose is designed to do and has done since ever.

Go on then, Einstein, explain to us all how you'd use a ceiling rose to install a light that doesn't use a ceiling rose.

I didn't say I can't fit one; I said that they're shit and used to save the fractional time and cost of running a neutral to the switch.

Sparkeys go to college for 4 years? 😮

Do they learn how to argu about ceiling roses? 😀

Hi

Following on from the hilarious banter with some help to OP.

As another stated by another.
Red sw/wire, Blacks are neutral looped (so connect together) & earth. Connect to the respective connections in the luminaire.

When I started my apprenticeship (1984) a neutral was frowned up at the switch as it increased potential of indirect contact. However the housing installs did it as they used TW&E. I was more on the heavy industrial side so singles/ conduit etc.

I didnt renew my card after 1999 though as I was designing/ engineering electrical installs by then and then made a fortune in the oil industry. Now teach apprentices & junior engineers so dont take my word on it!

Sadly for some four years is still not enough

I didn’t go to college for four years. Just went to day release for six years.

Anyway how to sort this is use test lamps. Forget the earth / green yellow. You have 2 blacks and one red. So the red should be a switch wire. With power on and all ends separated out safely try the lamps on red to black. Get someone to switch on and off the test lamps should go on and off. Try it between the red and both blacks separately. Both blacks should be neutral but only one will give you a circuit the other may be a loop to the next light. If the lamps go on and off when the switch changes position then good stuff. Connect up the light reds all together, blacks all together, green/yellows all together.

If you can’t get power to the lamps between red and black try black to black.

House wiring can be a bit weird I found a grey live in my house recently.

If you don’t have test lamps just connect all blacks together, all reds together and all green/yellows together. If the light doesn’t work call an electrician.

Did my apprenticeship when I think it was the 15th edition regs. Moved on long ago.
Old domestic lighting circuits often don't have an earth, there will be a cable with red and black and maybe an earth which goes to the light switch, assuming it's a single switch.
Hopefully the black will have a bit of red or yellow sleeve to indicate it's a switched live. If it's not marked, it's going to take someone who knows what they are doing to check it with a meter.

The red could be permanent line thus not needed at the fitting and one of the blacks switched line, taking the switch off and seeing what colour the switch cable is may help with some identification.
Of cause that’s the third of many options it could be so without at least a voltage test there’s no real safe way of checking so probably best getting someone in

Get a spark out. What you have found is possibly a two way lighting circuit or at the least a supply and switch wire.. They are a pain in the hoop if you haven't labelled the cores you disconnected.
Lesson learned.

I can't imagine how those 4 wires are connected unless the earth is being used as part of the switched circuit. I believe you are allowed to do that but it has to be labelled (but I'm not a sparkie and think that is insane).  If you have a switch in the room that you know will operate the light then open it up and take a look

I always use my camera phone before messing with anything. You don't always catch everything but there is always a connector or screw or something that you forget where it goes but you don't know what it is in advance

unless the earth is being used as part of the switched circuit. I believe you are allowed to do that but it has to be labelled

Not allowed but perfectly possible, hence my comment that old domestic lighting circuits often don't have earth's.
I've seen bell wire surface clipped as a switch wire, to allow two way switching.

If you have a modern RCD trip unit instead of the old fuses and you don't mind the odd tingle then just leave the power on and touch a couple of wires. If you get the old 240v tingle then you have found the circuit.

Possibly check my forum name and posting history before using my technique but it does work quite well.

@WCA- you never fail to deliver!!!

DONT DO THAT, EVER.

I'm an electronics engineer who worked with high voltage and have been saved lots of times by RCDs but they are a safety device, not a testing device.  If they fail then you are toast.

Couldn’t be bothered to reply to yet another lighting wiring thread (check the screwfix forum, there’s several everyday and it always descends into an electrician vs DIY argument) but seriously, Worldclassaccident, I know your sense of humour and it may be in jest but DO NOT GO POKING LIVE WIRES.
I’m another electronics engineer that as above, knows to leave the electrics to the electricians.

So now I’m in I’d best go all in;
Rewiring a light fitting is very DIYAble for the amataeur so long as you do it in this order;
1. Read some instructions first, which are as follows;
2. Isolate the mains
3. Inspect and identify the circuits going into the light fitting. Take a picture is a good way.
4. Fit new fitting in exactly the same way
If you find yourself at step 4 without having completed step 3, you may try to reverse engineer the circuits but if at all in doubt it’s time to call an electrician, no shame.

Time served electrician here, ran my own business, college tutor, assessor and iqa.
Get someone in. It's just not worth getting it wrong. Some of the comments above astound me, frankly. It'll be a 10 minute job, and should be fairly reasonable.

YOU CANNOT ASCERTAIN WHAT A WIRE IS FRON THE COLOUR OF INSULATION.

You just can't. As someone else said, you should, but people are morons who will wire up any old shit and this is 230V mains electricity which will kill you sooner than looking at you so words like 'probably' butter no parsnips. It's like arguing that you had right of way when most of you is lying under a transit and your bike is modern art.

If you're, sorry and all but, daft enough to take it all to bits without either writing down or photographing how it was before starting then you need to chalk this under 'lessons learned' and get an electrician out.

If you have a modern RCD trip unit instead of the old fuses and you don’t mind the odd tingle then just leave the power on and touch a couple of wires. If you get the old 240v tingle then you have found the circuit.

This is pretty much what I do, just touch the wire with the back of my hand to check it's not live. Lost count of the number of mains shocks I've had over the years, first one was when I was 3 and shoved my finger in a socket, ended up losing my finger print on that finger. (This was long before RCDs existed). I was rewarded with a Club biscuit, so that cemented a positive association with electric shocks, which I've maintained ever since.

NB I am an Electronic Engineer 😉

Also, unlikely to have an RCD on the lighting circuit unless it's reasonably recent, when they first came in they just installed them on the ring circuits and left the lighting circuits unprotected (as much less likely to be accessible).

See, I do the opposite. I isolate the power, check it with a meter then short to a known ground, just to be sure.
I was once checking a fault at a fused spur in an airing cupboard. The client switched a light off or on, which made the wire I happened to be holding onto live. I was also leaning on the hot water pipework, was a nasty belt I won't forget.
The Pillock who fitted the spur had taken a switched live from the lighting circuit.
It's a bit hazy but I think it was a two way circuit so turning a light off, made the spur live.

Thanks all. Id actually forget that my father in law, who lives miles away, is a retired electrician. He diagnosed it over the phone very quickly as exactly as some of you said (looped neutral).

He then told me to get a professional out to actually do it 🙂

And World Class Accident - I am very familiar with your work., But thanks anyway!

Hi @blackflag

Can you tell me what the 4 wires were then? If one was earth then I can't quite see what the other 3 are.  I'm very happy you have it worked out though.

A live and both ends of a switch wire. Probably.

No, as I said yesterday, the twin and earth will be live and neutral the single black will be neutral.
There can be no other combination.
If the single black was a permanent (or switched live) it wouldnt work, as there are not enough wires there to switch it on.
The only other thing is if the single black was a random live wire that had been left there by someone who hadnt got a clue what to do. but it wasnt , it was the neutral for the next light fitting.

but it wasnt , it was the neutral for the next light fitting.

Ah thanks,that was the idea that I was missing.  I was thinking you were short a wire but the switching had been done before sending it up the twin and earth. House wiring can be strange