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the 30k could be £15/h for a 40 hour week. it is a long time since i knew anything about contracting, but he’s likely to have to pay the employer’s NI contributions as well as his own and be responsible for calculating all his own taxes/saving money to pay tax when it is due.
Regarding the whole self employed thing have a look at IR35 to see if he really is self-employed. A lot of companies/contractors were using their set up as a tax dodge and HMRC have been cracking down it the last couple of years
Could be legit if done right and very benefical in terms of tax, but the downsides are lack of security, sick pay, holiday pay etc.
Hudson are a payment provider who get round IR35.
This is a growing market, lots of industrial/blue collar used to be cis or ltd company but were really in disguised employment, the IR35 reforms were meant to change this by shifting liability but companies like Hudson Contracts set up scope of works contracts (that pass paper inspection but reality differs...) to keep people self employed.
To answer a few questions;
He currently has a mixture of BTEC (extended diploma) in construction and A'levels (physics/maths)
The course he has a place on is Civil Engineering MEng - 4 years, with option for further 1 year placement either home or abroad.
I'm starting to get a feel for what is on the table jobwise - looks like they want to train him as a technician. No track record of supporting people to become chartered, and from what I understand little need for it in their current setup. This is my major concern at present, as it may lead to a ceiling on opportunities later on.
The self employed bit looks like an undesirable (from our perspective) workaround, although he has been sold the line it allows them to pay him more i.e. better hourly rate, but I dont think he has computed holidays, sick pay, pensions etc. I now understand IR35 and CIS a little better and the proposed workaround. Not a killer if he just went for a year but potentially bad news longer term. In some ways I'm less worried about this now.
I've had a chat with him, so will see how he responds. He reitterated that his heart is not in going to uni which seems a shame.
@joshvegas, what and where are you doing it? Graduate apprenticeship?
Don't want to derail the thread OP but maybe this will be of use. I'm in Scotland though so funding etc is very different.
I agree with Frank Conway up there putting off (or failing a maths degree) and going into the industry isn't really much fun. But one option he may not have considered is an graduate apprenticeship. I would say though that the points about uni this year being miserable are very valid.
I'm studying civil engineering at heriot watt uni. It's a four year course (again, Scotland = 3+1 for honours) I get one day off work a week to attend. The course is split 20 (one class) is full uni, attendance and whatever exams or coursework that class requires. 80 "on the job training" and submitting an academic report using worked examples that cover the outcome. The outcomes correlate to the equivalent full time outcomes.
Having done both full-time uni and this it's definitely better for some people especially the money side of things and the learning while working aspect can be good.
But it's not without issues. Some uni issues include. Splitting the work requirements like that has lead to us being dropped into some of the hardest classes to do exams without the preceding years build up. Some of the work based can be very difficult to achieve if your company is too specialised. It's not been a massive problem for me because I work in flooding and we cover most bases but it's kind of annoying when I have to do the class in hydraulics and hydrology in the classroom when I use it day in day out while having to struggle through composite bridge design on scraps. You also get bad weeks of work and uni deadlines... They suck the biggest of hairy balls.
There are three of us at my place. Me, a school leaver and a guy who started at 20 all graduate this year. The school leaver has been a total success after his 4 years he is going to be a very experienced graduate. His efforts have been rewarded with payrises etc and he is already very useful to the company and will be well on the way to his next steps rather having to learn what a job is.
The slight downside is they aren't covering a masters through it which is slightly annoying (we were the very first intake for the funding)
It's not a bad option but I do feel a bit sad that the young guy missed out on some of the uni experience and I don't just mean getting smashed and mad shagging.
If anyone has any questions give me a shout... We might actually be looking for another one.
Oh yeah technician to chartership... That's a long road. I considered it but I think nowadays it's a non starter the industry is weird it's screaming for technicians but it doesn't reflect that in its pay and alot of places you stay at the bottom or you creep up but get stuck with the grunt work because they can not being people in to do it.
This is all from consultancy side of things btw.
Most of the big water companies do graduate apprentice schemes
They also fund degrees for those who complete apprenticeships
A year of getting abused may make him appreciate his MEng a lot more.
Thats really useful @joshvegas
His aim originally was to get a graduate apprentiship so that was very much on the table from his perspective. He hasn't managed to identify one to this point.
Great BTEC results have resulted in lots of UCAS points (150+) - I encouraged the path to being chartered via MEng. I thought it important for him to maintain momentum.
Then this came up.
Whats the landscape like in terms of getting accepted to a graduate apprentiship? I think that would be ideal for his morale, I accept that full time study might make the course easier overall.
Whats the landscape like in terms of getting accepted to a graduate apprentiship? I think that would be ideal for his morale, I accept that full time study might make the course easier overall.
I don't really know because I had already been working for my employer when this opportunity came up.
However he can probably skip the first year like I did on previous learning especially if they are UCAS points. He's probably a good candidate as essentially he would be a year cheaper and has already proven aptitude. I would advise going in eyes open though some of the employers on the scheme a pulled some serious dick moves. "Making up the time" "not providing any work to match outcomes etc" all of which are very much not allowed but difficult to stop. A few guys walked and finished in different companies ( the Scottish system allows this and it also doesn't allow tying the apprenticeship) worth remembering that if they don't take an apprentice they have to pay the levee it's not so altruistic as some companies would make you think.
One stumbling block you may have is the money. He'll not be getting anywhere near 30k and that's going to look rubbish in comparison. Work out the true salary minus all the expenses etc and see how the paypackets match then?
Ta - just looked through what Severn Trent offer as some of their apprentiship positions are linked to degrees, although thin on detail.
re money - I thik if he didn't come out of a degree with large debts then that would help accomplish some of his aims.
This is my major concern at present, as it may lead to a ceiling on opportunities later on.
It absolutely will.
Much much harder to study part time on the job later.
Whatever he does, he has to go and get that MEng. Can you support him financially?
£30k seems like a million dollars when you are 20 but when you are 30 with a mortgage, car and realise you are gonna need a pension one day he will regret not getting the degree out of the way and missing those years of promotion in an organisation with a proper structure.
If he doesn't want to go to university yet he shouldn't go to university.
I went because everyone was telling me I should and I was 17 and stupid. Because I wasn't really that interested I graduated with a BSc rather than an honours degree and I reckon that has hindered my career more than if I'd just gotten an HND.
Had I gone to university when I was actually interested, ie, after I'd been working for a few years, then my career would be in far better shape.
All valid points - in the end he needs to decide. I just wanted to understand this offer a bit better, particularly as it is quite different to what I expected. Also helps to understand what other opportunities are out there. Hopefully we can advise and help him navigate these decisions to arrive at a solid plan.
We are able to support him through a degree, so fortunately thats not an issue.
Similarly to Joshvegas, I'm doing a graduate apprenticeship too, but also already in work so alightly different.
I had the option to do the standard part time Mechanical Engineering degree as work would have sponsored me no probs, but the GA looked like it suited me better, mainly because some of the subjects in 3rd and hons year suited my interests better.
Company were happy either way, but GA doesn't cost them anything. Just going into honours year now, no plan to get chartered as it seems way more involved than it sounds in civil, and once I've finished this, there's no way I'm going back to do a masters.
I didn't miss out 1st year, although I could have, and tbh it was the right decision as I'd have died doing 2nd year maths straight in at 43 years old.
Agree, not been a great time for studying, I hate the whole home learning thing, and it looks like this year will be the same, sadly.
On the whole, I'd recommend it though, it sounds like it would suit your son OP, if he can find an opportunity.
I wonder if he would be part of the CIS. He tells me he will be introduced to a firm called Hudson Contract who ‘manage this relationship’.
Yes, it will be CIS,and he will be self employed. I'd presume Hudson Contract are an 'umbrella' Company, who are the ones who will actually employ him. Nothing wrong with it really, a large proportion of building workers are on the same deal. I'm currently doing the same for a large council. One employer for 2 months now, but self employed, but, not actually self employed, as I've got a loose Contract with the Umbrella.
£30k is not a lot at the moment for short term staff. For a 20yo, it sounds pretty good. We have sparkies earning £40k at 21yo now. the typical pay for a qualified trade is around £23-25/hour recently, so a 50 hour week is £1k+ (no one does 40 hours!)
Contrary to many of the posts above I think that £30K sounds about right for a labourer working a 46 hour standard week at £12.50 per hour basic. I would expect the preferred payment provider to either offer an Umbrella PAYE option or Construction Industry Scheme (CIS) payment choice. On PAYE he will pay Income Tax and NI and on CIS he will have 20% deducted if he registers with HMRC. Both methods will probably offer an expenses offset for costs incurred. I would suggest he go PAYE for an easy life but CIS will probably be more tax efficient. From what I have seen it is harder to go back to studying once you have started working as you can get used to the money but I have seen people manage it.
Heart not in uni
That in itself is a fair reason to defer. We have 1 child whose motivation declined during A-levels due to No in-your-face teaching. Didn’t follow up on uni offers ‘why bother’. Now aiming to resit upper sixth.
The job sounds like BS, especially the ‘self-employed’ part but if there’s time, and interest, give it a go?
20 year old being offered a £30k salary with no experience sounds way too good to be true without any nepotism
IDK what the current young person’s job market is like. The description makes it sound like £30k would be some sort of ‘on target earnings’ value. But early 20s folks with no real job experience and 2:1 or 1 class degrees in STEM I’d think should expect >£35k. Back in the mid-2010s >£35 was typical for new graduates when I offered them a job.
If nothing else it’ll focus his mind on what he really wants from life and provide some motivation if he ends up going on to uni.
+1
My only thing to add is to remind him to "never put his finger where he wouldn't put his dick"*
AKA H&S is his problem as he is the one who'll be hurt/disfigured/dead, don't ignore it.
* - quote from senorj of this parish
I can understand the appeal of getting out of education, it's a treadmill if you aren't careful. I was done with exams and essays when I left university and Music was pretty practical . I'd say that doing this for a year (one year only) then going back to uni would be a good call because I wouldn't bank a future on this employer : because it'd chop you and not think twice if the owner lost a contract or two.
Whats the landscape like in terms of getting accepted to a graduate apprentiship? I think that would be ideal for his morale, I accept that full time study might make the course easier overall.
They are very hotly contested. Both of my sons are doing one, my youngest started his on Monday.
It was incredibly hard to get one, I think they had a couple of hundred apply for the MOD schemes. He must have applied for 15 in total and got an offer for a software engineering degree apprenticeship. It was a three stage interview process with the final stage being an all day assessment with presentations etc.