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My son is 20 yo and has always wanted to work while he is educated. University never really appealed to him and he spent the last year doing a variety of manual jobs. He doesn't mind hard work - out at 6am and back whenever. Really fit and can turn his hand to lots of stuff. People seem to like him too which helps.
He also has a good education behind him and was accepted to do a masters in civil engineering with a view to becomming chartered.
A local water company reached out to him (word of mouth) and after interview, offered him a job, starting next week. Money seems good, around £30K, and they have said that could increase rapidly but he would be self employed. Its a small water company, dealing in provision of drinking water mostly from what I understand. My son seems impressed by the setup, lots of new equipment, new offices they will give him a new van (don't know how that works if he is not employed). Relatively small companmy, but been running for 10 years and their returns to company house look fine.
He can defer uni for 12 months while he finds out if he likes this. They have promised to 'train' him to a high standard, promised he will love the work, ability to make money. I just aim to see him doing what he wants, but I'm medical and have no idea of the potential pitfalls here. Obviously he is giving up a formal qualification in civil engineering and I dont know whether this could be a cause for regret later.
Any pointers gratefully received. tx.
he would be self employed.
You're not 'self employed' if you only have one client
Consider what's being offered and if it passes these criteria:
You are considered self-employed if you’re:
- in business for yourself, are responsible for the success or failure of your business and can make a loss or a profit;
- able to decide what work you do and when, where or how to do it;
- able to hire someone else to do the work;
- responsible for fixing any unsatisfactory work in your own time;
- your client agrees a fixed price for work – it doesn’t depend on how long the job takes to finish;
- using your own money to buy business assets, cover running costs, and provide tools and equipment for your work;
- not restricted for working just that client.
Massive red flag - as above, how can they offer him a job, salary, van etc and be self employed.
There's going to be a catch here - could be no holiday, has to pay for fuel himself, has to pay for insurance himself, hotel stays if needed, salary based on "estimated workload" etc etc.
Already said, a lot of that doesn't hang together in crucial legal ways.
Yes seemed odd to me - they present it as being 'tax efficient', but I realise there will be major savings for them, holiday NI, pensions etc hence reaching out for more info.
I've asked him to get something in writing for us to look at; he thinks I'm raining on his parade but will come round I'm sure.
Provision of drinking water sounds like flogging water coolers/water to offices etc, probs a sales job and the 30k figure is 'estimated' with commission etc. Could be wrong!
@maccruiskeen where do the the parameters that you list come from ? HMRC. Are they derived from a legal framework? Tx
A local water company reached out to him (word of mouth) and after interview, offered him a job, starting next week. Money seems good, around £30K, and they have said that could increase rapidly but he would be self employed. Its a small water company, dealing in provision of drinking water mostly from what I understand.
Firstly the self employed bit is a red flag.
I presume this is for one of the new appointees rather than for one of the retailers. Or is it for one of the fly by nights offering borehole services to hospitals? Or one of those watercooler places?
He's far better off getting chartered, plenty of opportunities in the water industry in proper outfits.
Provision of drinking water sounds like flogging water coolers/water to offices etc, probs a sales job and the 30k figure is ‘estimated’ with commission etc. Could be wrong!
No nothing like that. Should have been clearer. Its moving water from reservoirs to commercial and domestic premesis via pipelines/ infrastructure. They deal with new installations, reparis and also subcontract for Severn Trent.
Ah ok fair enough it just set off alarm bells for me also but totally wrong. 😉
Reminds me of a job where I was going to sell "industrial cleaning equipment" which was IIRC fancy vacuum cleaner to private households.
As others said, red flags.
No nothing like that. Should have been clearer. Its moving water from reservoirs to commercial and domestic premesis via pipelines/ infrastructure. They deal with new installations, reparis and also subcontract for Severn Trent.
So a contractor or do they own and operate assets as a appointed water company, regulated by DWI, OFWAT, etc
I presume this is for one of the new appointees rather than for one of the retailers. Or is it for one of the fly by nights offering borehole services to hospitals?
Not quite sure what you mean. Firm is called Watertight . Looks as if they are installing pipes 'precsion drilling' - but it means very little to me.
Being young is the time to take risks, and he's not even taking a risk if he can defer for 12 months. Even if it turns out to my crap, at that age its valuable life experience.
There are literally no downsides.
‘precsion drilling’
As if any company specialises in 'half arsed drilling' 😉
There are literally no downsides.
Unless HMRC come calling saying you weren't really self employed and owe us £ks in unpaid tax....
20 year old being offered a £30k salary with no experience sounds way too good to be true without any nepotism.
I'd definitely find out more.
Being young is the time to take risks, and he’s not even taking a risk if he can defer for 12 months. Even if it turns out to my crap, at that age its valuable life experience.
There are literally no downsides.
Thats exactly what I thought and said to him initially. I'm pleased that he seems inspired to work. Tying him down to the way I 'did it' via uni seems inward looking. They may well be a small company looking to make their mark and he may thrive there.
At the end of the day I'm just here to support and try to spot anyone obviously taking the piss.
‘precsion drilling’
But not precision spelling?
As if any company specialises in ‘half arsed drilling’ 😉
Is there no SAS of the water industry then 🙂
But not precision spelling?
Very good, my 'i' must be a bit sticky tonight
As if any company specialises in ‘half arsed drilling’
Allow me to introduce you to some of our sub-contract fabricators... 🙄
20 year old being offered a £30k salary with no experience sounds way too good to be true without any nepotism.
It may be a little less, I'm not sure, but they made it clear he would be working hard. He is at that age where he can work very long days. He made tidy sum landscaping last year.
The employment status sounds like a tax workaround. Like he'd be a contractor / subbie but only working for them.
The training page, a lot of the listed courses are shorter courses. Every few years I do a suite of them and tick 8 off in a morning.
The equipment page to me reads as "we have an account at speedy and were able to set up portacabins on site"
I'm sure they're sound but I'd go down the education route right now a CEng will take him further in life.
It sounds like a fixed term contract, is that the case? Has he got a BEng in Civils or similar?
I used to work in civils (geotechnical), did a lot of work with drillers and now work in the water industry.
I've just looked that company up - looks like a provider of specialist technical services. I used to do a similar role.
My experience was: brutal work, unreal amounts of time driving, likely a few hotel stays a week, regular drug and alcohol testing, the absolute destruction of your social life, regular mobbing on a Sunday night, and if he's drilling it'll possibly be being paid by the meter.
The employment status sounds like a tax workaround. Like he’d be a contractor / subbie but only working for them.
Agree
The training page, a lot of the listed courses are shorter courses. Every few years I do a suite of them and tick 8 off in a morning.
Thought that too, similar to our mandatory training.
I’m sure they’re sound but I’d go down the education route right now a CEng will take him further in life.
The option to defer MEng is there. I expect he will try this as it is what he has always expressed a preference for - 'real work'
Have you checked glassdoor for ex employees reviews?
My experience was: brutal work, unreal amounts of time driving, likely a few hotel stays a week, regular drug and alcohol testing, the absolute destruction of your social life, regular mobbing on a Sunday night, and if he’s drilling it’ll possibly be being paid by the meter.
Good to know. I think there was an element of 'not everyone can hack it' but those that can do alright.
I'm sure they look at him as a certain type 'reasonably bright' and with a capacity to work. Whether he will like it is another thing. I expect that will depend on what he takes home and his future prospects.
Run.
I was a Financial Controller for a large Privately Owned sub-contractor of United Utilities. Over £200m turnover. United Utilities contract with big companies, Murphy, O'Connors etc to do the civils.
Doesn't sound right him being self employed in the industry - as it's part of the CIS, and expecting him to learn whilst self employed - no no - lots of liabilities.
I'd stear him away from this company into something else - £30k and no training yet...nope.
Similar issues with my son, loves IT, really good, but a desk job no good for him - really doesn't get time keeping despite us kicking him out for the job. He's struggling to find something, but is a bit of a genius with fixing cars (does all his mates). Trying to get him to go that way, but we had an 'issue' with a 'tuner company' that didn't pay him - I got it sorted in the end.
If it sounds too good to be true !!
Have you checked glassdoor for ex employees reviews?
Can't find anything
There's rarely been a better time to be in work and a worse time to go to uni what with Covid and all.
I did five years at Welsh Water, a lot of people in the industry were very happy in their jobs, even the drillers/civil engineering bods on contracts. Lots of driving, yup. Hotel stays, rarely because it was only Wales. Drug and alcohol testing, I'm neither a drunk nor junkie. Social life destruction, no worse than many other jobs. Mobbing on a Sunday night? WTF.
If nothing else it'll focus his mind on what he really wants from life and provide some motivation if he ends up going on to uni.
Junior worked for a Berlin start-up. That crash course in corporate life taught him what he doesn't want from life and has focussed his mind on what he does want.
I way I’d do it, but at 20 with an option to defer uni by a year? Do it.
If it’s crap/a scam then you leave and do something else for a few months whilst waiting for uni to start.
Doesn’t sound right him being self employed in the industry – as it’s part of the CIS
I wonder if he would be part of the CIS. He tells me he will be introduced to a firm called Hudson Contract who 'manage this relationship'.
There’s rarely been a better time to be in work and a worse time to go to uni what with Covid and all.
This and in his heart he really does not want to go to uni so I can't guarantee he will succeed in that particular environment.
The self-employed thing is a bit of a red flag but nevertheless I say go for it.
Some real world work experience before uni is invaluable, even better if it corresponds with the chosen subject.
They look like an ambitious subcontractor, they will promise they can do anything and then find the staff/fudge it. Directors have the thinest LinkedIn profiles I have seen for this type of company.
They will probably run him ragged, I'd be concerned about H&S, he has no real world experience, the industry is better than most but accidents happen, a dropped chamber lid can take your fingers off which is a life changing injury, confined spaces etc etc
The self employed bit is the biggest red flag, it shows they are cutting corners, they can drop him without notice. Also when these firms fold it can be brutal, told to drive to a depot for a "briefing" van keys taken off them and told they don't have a job and to find their own way home.
Who do you think Hudson Contract protect?
https://www.hudsoncontract.co.uk/
Could be brilliant, could be a disaster, they will promise anything
Could make him realise that without being chartered his career is limited
Working in civil engineering without a degree sucks balls.
He'll watch people who are ****ing useless come in with on accelerate past him despite the fact you essentially gave them on the job training and picked up their mistakes on their way to chartership.
Which is why aged 37 i am doing an apprenticeship degree.
In my previous employment as a rope access tech most firms are set up and take folk on as subbies. Jobs come and go and specialist skills are needed. That's expected by all involved and the techs are free to move around between companies.
This seems different as I said above. I bet there are some good guys busting a gut and he'd learn a lot, but there will also be a shed load of cluster****s out there who are a liability.
I'd be tempted to defer and do it. But go back!
This sounds like a 2 bit operation, they never heard of pimlico plumbers???!
This year will be miserable at uni. This job will give him something to talk about in proper job interviews at proper companies.
With the degree and this experience he will be looking at starting on 30k+ at a proper company with a proper pension and benefits.
He also has a good education behind him and was accepted to do a masters in civil engineering with a view to becomming chartered.
Has he already done a bachelors degree? Doesn't sound like it.
Education and qualifications first.
Engineers will always be in demand; chartered status is becoming increasingly important and relevant.
You say he's been accepted for an MEng degree; are you certain that's the course?
The whole subbie piece raises red flags for me.
Why work as a self employed subbie to a utilities sub-contractor?
To me, this doesn't pass the smell test.
I can say with 100% certainty that the public sector - which encompasses water utilities - are very wary of the sort of contractual arrangement being proposed by Waterwise.
Do your research and homework as this, I think, has significant potential to go tits up and leave your son exposed.
Cut out the middle man - talk direct with UU/severn trent and the other utilities about opportunities direct with them.
If it was my son, this is the advice he would get from me.