[Closed] Any ex lawyers...

Did 3 years of law at uni - hated it - did work exp at Slaughter and May in London, hated it even more.

Now own a indoor climbing wall

Sorry, not much help 😀

I think you have to try and get your soul back from the Devil, challenge him to a fiddling contest.

I came close to breaking point and they worked this out.

Took some time out then back to bike trade, still there after 2.5 years, trying to move on but finding job market tough.

There is a website covering this, I forget the name but I'll be googleable

Al, are looking to go back into the law.

No, had enough, too long out of it now.

Think it was the workload; at heart I'm a lazy bårstard. Clients and some of my colleagues ran a close second. Got a doctorate, loafed for a while, and now work an easy IT role (like what feels to be 50% of the members here) in the country. Don't miss it, and rarely miss London village. Guess it was a mid-life crisis in my twenties...

Is there such a thing as an [i]ex[/i] Lawyer? isn't that like an [i]ex[/i] criminal? 😀

Went from private practice here to inhouse. My then boss was cosec and when she moved on I took over. Not planned that way but a bit of luck. Currently redundant for complicated reasons but looking for another cosec job. As I said to my wife last night that will do until I see the ad for really slow pro triathlete.

exlawyers I know:

- private investigator x 3

- literary agent

- semi-HR consultant

mostly high stress, boring work and douchebag bosses that did them in

Yes. As of 2 weeks ago. Went in-house 4 years ago after deciding partnership as a corporate lawyer post-2008 was a doomed enterprise. Learned loads as an in-houser, but hit the glass ceiling and boredom factor. Stayed at same company, but now doing a commercial role.

I know some others. All of whom are happier, less stressed and have a better* work/life balance.

*few hit nirvana - I think I probably work more intensely on more things at the same time.

Edit - double post.

If you're in private practice, then either become a consultant if you're niche or head to a decent - ie commercial - inhouse team.

Am on hols now, but feel free to mail me and I'll share more info. Addy in profile.

Not a lawyer, but three good friends qualified. One has stayed with it, specialising in tax law (he say's it's boring but he's a family man and can put up with the boredom), one left practice and now lectures in law at a London uni, the other left one of the big firms and is now in-house lawyer at a tech start-up.

Ta for the replies.

This is very interesting reading for someone about to qualify. Should I quit now?

11 years qualified and I'd get out if I had a viable plan of something else to do.

10 yrs qualified - other than mrs nipper i would be quite happy if i never saw or spoke to another human being ever again (well most of the time anyway)!

I moved from private practice to an in house role just over 2 years ago. Old firm was sending me here, there and everywhere - great for the CV but was ruining my life (or what was left of it). Hours were horrific at times, but it was working with other lawyers that eventually broke my will, not the graft.

A role came up with one of our clients. Commercial/legal role. Seemed almost perfect. I do the same stuff as before, but I'm the client now and get to run a large part of the commercials too. Work on my own on deals (with good advisers) and part of a small but highly supportive legal department. Company is generally excellent to work for.

But...I'd still rather be doing something else if I could work out what really makes me tick. Long hours stress has just been replaced with fewer hours (most of the time) but a completely different kind of pressure/stress. Plus although I don't have to do any day to day legal stuff, I feel like my time is often wasted (no charge out rate means people love to have the lawyers sit in on absolutely everything).

Advice to OP (same as OMITN really)...try doing something else in the law first, before you jump ship entirely. I'm actually pretty happy at work at the moment and earn more than I would in PP. It might not be the law itself, perhaps you're just need to approach it from a different angle.

I started [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/job-woes-do-you-ever-actually-realise-your-worklife-balance-is-****ed ]this[/url] thread 3 years ago. Looking back, I was making my life (and those around me) shit. If you think you need to so something about it, you probably do.

My wife was a Commercial Lit lawyer for around 4 years before the work load, clients, work mates and soul destroying situations made her jack it in.

I can clearly remember the moment she did it. I was away at the time and I remember thinking it was the absolute correct thing to do.

6 years later it's still the best decision (well, second best after that whole getting together with me thing of course) that she's ever made.

She works as a Project Manager at a uni now and still uses her law expertise daily but not in such an unpleasant environment.

Stuck it out as a property lawyer for 17 years despite never real enjoying it from day one. Although the money got better the hours just got longer and longer so jumped at the chance to go and work with clients 5 years ago. Now running a moderately successful property company and still feel relief every morning I wake up and realise I don't have a 12 hour day tied to my desk being reactive to clients ahead.

Don't beat yourself up about leaving private practice, it's a real bind and not many go back. Hats off to the guys who actually genuinely enjoy private practice but I didn't come across many.

it was working with other lawyers that eventually broke my will, not the graft.

Wannabe ex lawyer here!

Any suggestions for a nearly 5 yr PQE private client solicitor?

I realised that if I was going to make partner at my current shop, I needed to work 4x harder than I was currently doing (and that was only viable while eating anti-depressants anyway).

I am instead trying to make partner somewhere where this is possible on a sane working week. Still going to be rubbish though.

🙂

Not yet but busy trying to be, fed up working for the man in a soul destroying role, want something stimulating where its up to me to make it happen but I have an interest in the result, and something I am proud of.

Well this is a heartening read! It's good to know that lawyers hate their lives as much as the rest of the world hates the thought of having to have any dealings with them. 🙂

I've often wondered about the huge workload/long hours thing with lawyers - is it basically a greed thing? The more money they make the more they want...

A cousin of mine works daft hours for an Edinburgh law firm, I was rather surprised when he told me that after only being qualified a few years his tieme was charged out at £165 P/H and his boss £265 😯

I know there's s****y offices in the right postcode and fit office receptionists to pay for but still 😯

Bedmaker, your post makes you sound like a bit of a fanny tbh

Fair enough.

How come? It's a genuine enough question, why does someone on a huge hourly rate feel the need to work loads of hours when they could work a bit less, enjoy the job a bit more, and still make plenty of monay?

I realise there are plenty minions in big law firms to whom this doesn't apply, it's more directed at those a bit further up the greasy pole who are still working big hours.

jadedlawyertrackworld meet somewhere wet and gloomy mid winter which we can then all gib out of at the last min because we don't have time 😕

Fair enough.

How come? It's a genuine enough question, why does someone on a huge hourly rate feel the need to work loads of hours when they could work a bit less, enjoy the job a bit more, and still make plenty of monay?

I realise there are plenty minions in big law firms to whom this doesn't apply, it's more directed at those a bit further up the greasy pole who are still working big hours.

You were trying to be antagonistic 🙂

The huge workload isn't optional for the vast majority (unless you quit). Most lawyers I know don't work in private client areas of law as sole practitioners where they have more control on how much work they take on (eg the type of lawyer you might meet, wills, divorce, criminal). Most I know work in big corporate/commercial firms. You're on a huge charge out rate (£400+ per hour) and have equally huge chargeable hours/billing targets to meet. But, they pay you a huge salary, which makes leaving the profession (or at least big law firms) that wee bit harder, because your life tends to grow around that salary. It's a trap. It cost me £40k out of my own pocket (well, HSBCs anyway) to go through 6 years of law school and although I was hardly thrilled by the time I got into practice, if it was the choice between earning more than an MP straight out of uni, or to ignore the 6 years of graft you just put in and go do something you might enjoy more but for 1/4 of the money...with all that debt hanging over you....it's easy to see why most people stick it out for a bit.

Those of us who have jumped ship to client side (or out of law) realise that there is an alternative, but you generally have to go through a number of years of torture in order to get there .

In all fairness, there are a lot of greedy lawyers, but there are greedy people everywhere. Lawyers are just an easy target because we make taking obscene amounts of money from people/companies look so effortless 😉

Just to temper peterfile's enthusiasm for his [i]wedge[/i], there are bucket loads of lawyers who don't earn top dollar and find themselves equally trapped because they believed the graduate recruitment lie that going into the law these days was a big deal. It isn't. It's a grunt job being someone else's bitch. Only, once you've spent a wedge to get in, you feel like a massive loser for wanting to get out. And there's nothing worse than bright people feeling like they've failed to make them stick at it in the hope they'll get the big bucks and somehow it'll be ok.

Oh, and anyone who confuses the charge out rates with the take home is what we might call "an unsophisticated client". There are a handful (probably literally across the country) who make more than they charge.

@ the lawyers thinking about doing something else, I have plenty more opinions where these came from. Email's in my profile.

a huge hourly rate

how much do plumbers and mechanics charge an hour? a car dealership or estate agent will (appear to) make thousands of pounds an hour selling just one car (but of course s/he has massive expenses and doesn't sell a car an hour).

lawyers generally get paid more than social workers or carers or loads of other people that do real hard work BUT it's also a very competitive market, there have never been more providers and so you have to assume that (for sophisticated clients whose lawyers charge top whack) they're paying that money because it's worth it.

Just to temper peterfile's enthusiasm for his wedge

Ha! No enthusiasm on my part, it's a rueful reflection on how things ended up the way they have for me 🙂 I trained at a firm that thought it appropriate to not pay GDL/LPC fees and to pay law society minimum (which actually works out at under the minimum wage). I picked the firm when I still had delusions that perhaps I could practise in a field that interested me. I moved on qualification for more money because I had to work 2 jobs for two years (training contract plus every saturday and sunday in a part time job) just to meet the minimum repayment on my tuition fees.

I agree it is a trap either way though, especially when you consider the willingness of LLB/GDL/LPC/Diploma providers to take students money despite the distinct lack of training contracts. The competition is fierce and it forces many young lawyers to make compromises.

I wanted to go into criminal law, that's what attracted me to the law as a kid. I spent every summer from 14 working in a firm, starting with making tea and sorting out the library and eventually working as a precognition agent whilst studying. But the longer you spend studying, the higher the debts become and the more you become aware of the huge salary difference between doing the thing you want v doing the thing that will pay the bills. So I sold out 🙁

Not sure I'd be happier as a criminal lawyer, but probably less bored.

Really interesting views here, particularly as I see the insides of a range of firms from your Top 100 size up to the big US ones and a lot aren't as profitable as they would have you think, perhaps explaining in part the comments on salaries here.

I did a law degree but ended up a tax accountant - it seems to have a more commercial feel to it, in terms of the work you do, and less transactional, so your're working with the clients on all the inter relating issues as they grow the business. The work life "mix" seems to be more progressed in accountancy than law. The chargeable hour targets are realistic too, with real chances to work from home regularly. I sometimes wonder how US lawyers are expected to hit their chargeable hours targets and have a life - the above replies suggest they don't.

I work with plenty of people who used to be lawyers and moved into accountancy and the skillsets are easily transferable, I would say. It's a kind of a half way house, perhaps.

If money is your thing, then that is there for the taking, with average partner profit shares at the big 4 firms averaging £600k.

I know one guy who was doing the standard big London law firm, mental hours, bed at the office, didn't see his family thing.

He took a position in the British Virgin Islands and is a lot happier, and so is his family. Might not be getting on quite as quick as he would be if he was still in London, but he's certainly not doing badly. He gets to see his girls grow up, and his wife can remember what he looks like without checking photographs. And they live in the Caribbean.

Another friend gave up being a tax lawyer to take on his parents' farm. Working just as hard, but feeling more fulfilled.

And another (family law) sleft to set up his own practice. He seems a lot happier too.

Good thread this. Most of my friends who went into law came from lower middle class background, their dads all told them to go into law and "make some proper money".
As with all life it is a compromise - I don't know too many people making very good money without very long hours, in any profession.

I don't know too many people making very good money without very long hours, in any profession.

Depends what you mean by very good money, I guess. There is something particular about the culture in the few professions that are top of the list for ambitious people who want to make a lot of money. If you're that sort of person, you're looking at Law, Investment Banking, Consulting/accountancy at one of big 4, [Medicine maybe but there are different factors involved there]

You're surrounded by other people wanting to do the same, cutting your teeth on the stuff that's too boring and tedious to interest partners and seniors, so often the only way to differentiate yourself is to work harder and longer than your peers. All on the promise of untold riches and an easier life when you break through into the upper echelons.

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Depends what you mean by very good money, I guess.

I'd say 70k a year plus. And in terms of being surrounded by arseholes, that goes for a huge variety of jobs, including fairly low paid ones. I agree though the constant pressure makes the difference.

If you work for a living, why kill yourself working.

All on the promise of untold riches and an easier life when you break through into the upper echelons.

It's odd isn't it? Even though you can see the statistics for yourself, no one fully accepts them. An equity partner at my last shop was taking home over £1m on average...yet a new salaried partner would be taking home under £150-175k. The reality is...for most... you'll never see equity if you stick with a big firm.

Yet people still aim for partnership/equity as if it's [i]necessary[/i]. As if somehow life will get easier once you reach it 🙂

Working your arse off for £1m a year would be tolerable if cash is important to you (I don't know many office jobs that pay that). Yet working your arse of in the hope that you might hit £175k and almost killing youself in the process (still believing that a relaxing work life on £1m is just around the corner), is a much less appealing proposition, yet is the more likely outcome for most lawyers at big firms.

I never really had a desire to reach partnership or be wealthy. I just wanted enough to pay my debts off and go on holiday. 80 hour weeks doing stressful and boring work, surrounded by people I wouldn't piss on if they were on fire, wasn't worth it for someone not chasing the partnership "dream". I became disillusioned quite quickly, but opportunities of escape were few and far between. I eventually got lucky and am much, much happier.

why does someone on a huge hourly rate feel the need to work loads of hours when they could work a bit less, enjoy the job a bit more, and still make plenty of monay?

You can't just piss off at 2pm because you think you've earned enough monay (although you should be able to).

Peterfile puts this very well indeed.

🙂

I do like the law, the problem for me is that I don’t do that much of the hard interesting stuff, and instead I get to deal with piles of dull paperwork with the occasional interesting issue, and as an added bonus the internal politics of working with other lawyers. Technically I’m fairly decent (Legal 500/Chambers ranked, for what that’s worth) and I can get away with a charge out rate in the region of £300 + VAT, but I know that to make it to partnership I’d have to turn into the sort of person I don’t want to be. I’d need to prioritise arse licking and spending time outside office hours with people who would benefit my career rather than people I like spending time with. I don’t want to be told that I have to check my blackberry when I’m on holiday. I’ve seen the crap the salaried partners have to put up with from the equity partners. I don’t want to be consumed by the job – I want to be able to do a good job but leave it behind when I leave the office.

At one point I was probably considered to be on the partnership track, but I’ve made it pretty clear that I don’t want it. I’m quite happy to forego the job title in favour of it being slightly less all consuming, particularly as it would have no impact on the quality of the legal work I get to do (and indeed given that I like the legal work rather than the management side of it, that’s another reason for staying where I am). Except… having reached the limits of where I can get to on a non-partnership track I’m depressed by the prospect of just doing this forever, or being forced out as younger blood comes through the system. At the moment that’s unlikely to happen because of some of the fairly specialised and valuable to the board stuff I do but never say never.

In house would almost certainly be an improvement, but I have been trying to wait for the right in house job rather than applying for anything and everything. As time goes by I may rethink my strategy. I do have another idea but that would require me to be braver and actually sit down and make proper plans (I really quite enjoy data protection advisory work and I can see that in theory I could head down the route of non-regulated data protection consultancy work. No real need to be SRA regulated for that, and its a growing area. But the marketing side of it and actually finding enough clients to keep my head above water are what scare me. Which is probably why I became a lawyer in the first place ;-))

the more they work, the lower their per hour cost to the employer is

Utilisation is king!

You'd expect that when you've got a high hours target, hitting 100% utilisation would be looked on favourably by the firm...but when your colleagues are all sitting on 120% utilisation, you're not only the back marker, you're also dragging down the whole department utilisation. So even meeting your target is viewed as sub par performance.

The whole model encourages quantity over quality. Ever got towards the end of a financial year and found yourself in an unexpected quiet period? That three week quiet period can mean the difference between hitting bonus or not even hitting your target. I know more than one person who has time dumped to avoid situations like that.

It's odd isn't it? Even though you can see the statistics for yourself, no one fully accepts them. An equity partner at my last shop was taking home over £1m on average...yet a new salaried partner would be taking home under £150-175k. The reality is...for most... you'll never see equity if you stick with a big firm

Very good point here - law firms seem totally pre-occupied with profit per equity partner. A lot of firms have been really struggling and hence very few people now make equity. The title of partner at many firms is now equivalent to senior manager at the big accountancy firms, where I think there is much more balance on working expectations.

It is going to be an interesting few years in law, as many now go into work, not to work 100+ hours for future partnership, but to achieve some kind of balance. How law firms achieve that culturally is going to be interesting. Certainly in the big 4 there is that understanding that many don't want to shoot the lights out, but still want an interesting role that pays well.

A bit of a cliche, but I still think of this a lot. Especially when it comes to evaluating what's important.

An American investment banker was at the pier of a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked. Inside the small boat were several large yellowfin tuna. The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took to catch them.

The Mexican replied, “only a little while. The American then asked why didn’t he stay out longer and catch more fish? The Mexican said he had enough to support his family’s immediate needs. The American then asked, “but what do you do with the rest of your time?”

The Mexican fisherman said, “I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take siestas with my wife, Maria, stroll into the village each evening where I sip wine, and play guitar with my amigos. I have a full and busy life.” The American scoffed, “I am a Harvard MBA and could help you. You should spend more time fishing and with the proceeds, buy a bigger boat. With the proceeds from the bigger boat, you could buy several boats, eventually you would have a fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to a middleman you would sell directly to the processor, eventually opening your own cannery. You would control the product, processing, and distribution. You would need to leave this small coastal fishing village and move to Mexico City, then LA and eventually New York City, where you will run your expanding enterprise.”

The Mexican fisherman asked, “But, how long will this all take?”

To which the American replied, “15 – 20 years.”

“But what then?” Asked the Mexican.

The American laughed and said, “That’s the best part. When the time is right you would announce an IPO and sell your company stock to the public and become very rich, you would make millions!”

“Millions – then what?”

The American said, “Then you would retire. Move to a small coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siestas with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos.”

The whole model encourages quantity over quality.

Interesting this. I'm the owner of a technology start-up, pre-revenue with no guarantee of success! Investment and corporate support now arriving and things are generally 'on the up'. At some stage in the next few months I will be looking to 'bring in some help'. Firstly through a funded interim programme but with the intention of full-time should it work out for both parties.

Legal / commercial background is what I need with experience of working with start ups. Someone to help structure the business and plan its growth - an MD type role while I sort the tech and customers.

Geography needn't be a constraint at this point. Seems to be a lot of disillusioned people out there that might fancy a challenge? My email is in my profile if anyone is remotely interested in a chat.