MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
Asking for a friend.
The place where this friend works is having another huge series of cuts and redundancies.
The role that he currently does is very specialist to his skill set, and incredibly busy too. So busy that he has complained about workload to managers for ages.
With this round of cuts and voluntary redundancies, several posts are going completely or being reduced in percentage so that now, my friend is being told that he will now cover 5 further areas of different specialisms to his own.
My friend and his colleagues have been given a very short amount of time to decide whether they want to 'express an interest' in these roles and if not are invited to apply for voluntary redundancy.
Some colleagues got in early and went for VR, and as a result, some colleagues then received emails saying that they were no longer at risk of redundancy. Effectively their roles are changing but they are not being given the opportunity to agree or not to agree and take VR.
As my friend is very experienced and specialist in his area, and the organisation are very unlikely to have a person to directly replace him, his taking of VR could conceivably not be accepted by the organisation.
My question really is, should my friends application for VR not be accepted for whatever reason they give, what situation would he be in then?
I believe that if an organisation are offering you an alternative role that is not suitable then you are within your rights to refuse it and be made redundant? Is this right?
I believe that my friends role is now being made so different, that effectively/arguably it is a different job, and so surely he is within his rights to refuse to accept the terms of that new job and take redundancy.
Any help on this from those in the know would be greatly appreciated. My friend has been greatly affected by this and other unpleasant things at work and now feels like leaving is the only option, however after serving for ten years, feels that he deserves some kind of severance should he decide to leave.
however after serving for ten years, feels that he deserves some kind of severance should he decide to leave.
I think your friend is going to be disappointed..
Its posts that are made redundant not people. If his post is redundant then he is. If there are say 5 posts going out of ten then management decide who is redundant but the process must be fair and transparent
If an alternative role is not suitable you can refuse it but you will need to show why.
voluntary redundancy is voluntary on both sides - the management do not have to accept his application.
Redundancy payments are small.
He needs proper advice from his union.
10 years employment, all his employer would have to pay him is 10 weeks salary to get rid of him.
I was going to write much of what TJ wrote but he did it much better than I would so I'm not going to bother.
People do get very hung up on redundancy payments when in reality they are incredibly small in the big scheme of things. If not being there is the best option just start looking. If it helps be open and honest that you are now looking to leave, want to help them in the short term but would like a bit of flexibility to attend interviews etc.
Alternatively arrange a meeting with someone far enough up the food chain to be able to make a difference and explain why the restructure is unworkable from your job roles perspective. Ask which elements of the job spec they would least mind you completing. Explaining you want to work are hard as possible but it is unfeasible to do - what can they loose. Any good manager should be able to listen to this because if your friend does leave the replacement would have to do the same.
Redundancy payments are small.
They are not to my friend. They would help give him a little breathing space and possibly help him to make something positive out of the mess of this.
He needs proper advice from his union.
He is trying to get this now but as I say, is being made to make the decision very quickly.
He has already asked the hr department what might happen if refused vr but said that the new role is significantly different to his current role.
They said that his manager had stated that the new role was in line with the existing role and that he had the qualifications and training to do this new role.
This is not the case. He is a specialist in his area, has a degree in his area, all his employment history is in his area, and yet they are now tacking on 5 other areas for him to cover/support which require entirely different specialist skills and knowledge.
Redundancy payments are small.
He needs proper advice from his union.
Depends on which industry we are talking about. The one I work in pays redundancy vastly in excess of the government minimum, and we do not have any sort of Union.
angeldust - anyone can join a union. there is a union for everyone.
Redundancy payments can be more that stat minimum but never count on it. 10 weeks pay is really not much.
Kayak - at the end of the day that decision about whether or not its a "suitable alternative" would be made by a tribunal but to me it sounds like your pal is on thin ice.
Its not unsuitable if he does not WANT to do it - only if he CANNOT
10 weeks pay may not be much but at least it would be tax free (I'm assuming his friend earns less than £156k per annum).
angeldust – anyone can join a union. there is a union for everyone.
Nope, there is no union directly relevant to our company/business. I have no doubt one could be set up, but currently nothing exists.
TJ, have you ever worked outside of the NHS?
Its not unsuitable if he does not WANT to do it – only if he CANNOT
Well he cannot do it.
Putting the fact aside that the workload in his specialist area only is so high that he cannot complete everything required, tacking a further 5 areas, all with different specialist knowledge, training and experience required of which he has very little to none, onto his role in which he must do the same job further to his existing role in these other areas of specialism, is hardly 'suitable' surely.
Its not unsuitable if he does not WANT to do it – only if he CANNOT
Not strictly true, it must be a suitable alternative, and if the employee can give reasons why it's not suitable. You're correct that it's up to tribunal to decide.
IIRC, case law comes from a nurse who had been a senior district nurse who was pushed back into hospital work. Tribunal decided that individual circumstances can make an alternative not suitable. The nurse won.
So he could challenge the comparability of the new job and his current role, but if management disagree (likely based on what you have already posted) then his choices are limited.
He can indeed refuse the comparable post, but is then in effect resigning. He may be able to claim constructive dismissal, but this is not easy, very stressful and unless the firm are useless in their HR is unlikely to succeed.
His best option as posted above is to be open that he is looking for another role, and explain why. This may persuade management to either change the role, or to pay him off anyway.
And to the OP, is the job being offered as an alternative to redundancy or is it a change to his existing role?
Subtly different things. I'm sure a lawyer will be along soon to clear it all up 🙂
And to the OP, is the job being offered as an alternative to redundancy or is it a change to his existing role?
The job is part of many similar jobs, all within specific areas of specialism, specific to each employee. They originally all applied to work at the organisation in their area of expertise and that's what they were employed to do.
The organisation is making big cuts and so this group of employees has been put into a 'pool', where some jobs are being reduced in percentage to effectively make them part-time, and some posts are being changed to encompass the areas and specialisms of others in the pool whilst still remaining full time, and other employees not in the pool who have a slightly different job title and are yet to discover (until tomorrow) that their posts are now redundant.
TJ, have you ever worked outside of the NHS?
To use the NHS as an analogy for a second, it's a bit like asking someone who trained as a radiologist to suddenly cover phlebotomy, coronary care, ENT, physio and paramedic.
They're all specialist areas. Covering all of them in addition to your actual field of knowledge and experience is surely not to be considered 'suitable'.
To use the NHS as an analogy for a second, it’s a bit like asking someone who trained as a radiologist to suddenly cover phlebotomy, coronary care, ENT, physio and paramedic.
Yeah that's clearly not going to work. A bit like expecting someone who can't see past the end of their nose to know anything about the rest of the world :-)?
Does your mate have a union, or is the 'help' from HR coupled with a employee rep (which is what we have where I work)? The redundancy situation in big companies can be very different to those looking from a unskilled worker/low wage perspective (where government guidelines, and much of the above advice, is relevant). Might help to be more specific about the industry/company, if you can.
Angeldust There are unions for everyone from all industries. And yes I have worked outside the nhs a fair amount. Always a union member tho.
You may not have a recognised union but union membership is open to all employees at all levels in all industries - want to tell me your industry and I'll tell you your union?
this sort of situation is exactly why everyone should be in a union
They originally all applied to work at the organisation in their area of expertise and that’s what they were employed to do.
Ok, I'm not a lawyer, but I have been through a couple of these.
If his specialism is in his original contract / job description then he may have a case for constructive dismissal (or at least some leverage). If his contract says "and other duties which may arise" (or similar) then he probably doesn't.
Time for him to get some proper advice I'd say.
Not a chance of constructive dismissal. Forget that. Almost impossible to prove even in the most obvious circumstances and from what I see this is nowhere near.
I(t all hinges really on whether the alternative posts offered are suitable or not. We don't really know enough to be sure.
Angeldust There are unions for everyone from all industries. And yes I have worked outside the nhs a fair amount. Always a union member tho.
You may not have a recognised union but union membership is open to all employees at all levels in all industries
Key pedantic word here is 'recognised'. I'm sure there are unions that would be happy to take a membership fee and claim they cover my industry, but the fact is no one in my company (100,000 employees worldwide, big % in the UK) in this country is a union member demonstrates they have no power, no relevance, and no use here. Might be better if they did, but they don't.
I thought you had been a junior grade male nurse for 35 years? Has that not always been for the NHS? How have you been able to fit anything else in. You can't be that old!
Not a chance of constructive dismissal. Forget that. Almost impossible to prove even in the most obvious circumstances and from what I see this is nowhere near.
In my (admittedly limited) experience of two different people, the threat of a CD claim after a significant change in employment conditions being forced on them was enough to get HR to back down & offer a compromise agreement equivalent to redundancy.
Ah - the threat of a tribunal claim often leads to a compromise agreement especially given how incompetent HR usually are over redundancy
angeldust. Just because no one is unionised does not mean a union couold not be helpful
classic Stockholm syndrome if you ask me 😉
BTW - I am a nurse. My sex has nothing to do with it. Do you say female nurse? I'm nearing 60 😉
The timescales and processes are clearly set out in the gov link posted earlier. Has teh process been followed correctly in terms of consultations and so on... I ask because you use the terms rushed and quickly. Its usualy a 3 month or so process.
Good point from rick. My usual advice is to let HR eff it all up, threaten tribunal then settle on a compromise agreement. I did this once. I was entitled to a months notice and £400 redundancy pay. I ended up with 7 months garden leave and £7000 due to HRs utter incompetence.
BTW – I am a nurse. My sex has nothing to do with it. Do you say female nurse? I’m nearing 60
I suspect angeldust is no spring chicken either. The term "male nurse" was used when I was a kid, a "while" back. And we say "gender" now. Sex is another matter altogether.
On the subject of unions, and having gone through a compromise agreement myself after attempts to shift me to a role I had no experience in, I wouldn't hold out too much hope. Some are good, but others, even big public-sector unions are crap and gutless.
angeldust. Just because no one is unionised does not mean a union couold not be helpful
Potentially, yes, if (and it's a big 'if') our employment terms changed. With such a large, established, workforce you have to wonder why hasn't it been implemented previously though? I guess it is because we are so well looked after, compared to government minimum requirements. Back to the point - talking to the union won't be any help/relevant for some people. It certainly wouldn't be for me.
BTW – I am a nurse. My sex has nothing to do with it. Do you say female nurse? I’m nearing 60
Purely historic. I'm sure I don't need to tell you, historically it has been associated as a female profession, hence why the term 'male nurse' is (was?) used for people such as you. Are you offended by that? I was trying to think when the last term I specifically heard it was - perhaps by Robert De Nero in Meet the Parents (2000), though obviously the character who said it was middle aged+. Apparently in the UK, only ~ 10% of nurses are male (quick Google, so not claiming any accuracy), so that still appears to be the case. Source - Guardian article from March 2017, which used the term 'male nurse' in the headline, funnily enough. Apparently males still use the terms 'matron' and 'sister' according to the article?
I can't say what kind of organisation it is really, however there are two unions representing the employees there and he is talking to one of them, mainly because he believes they will not allow him vr due to his significant skill value to the department.
He wants the union to assess whether the new job role is 'suitable' as he thinks it is certainly not.
Kayak, based on your limited description, in my experience this sounds like a clear cut case. I've had colleagues whose role following a reorganisation has changed in a MUCH more minor way than what your friend has described, and they have successfully argued that they should be placed in a VR pool. Negotiations were via HR, as we don't have a union. Much will depend on the attitude of the company. In our case, HR will always work for the benefit of the company at the end of the day, but they are open to reason on occasion.
they will not allow him vr due to his significant skill value to the department
If I were him I'd be looking for, unless the sector is tiny, a job elsewhere as they appear to be undermining his ability to do his job appropriately
Even if he does manage to get into the VR pool the company could just offer him the statutory payment which if they applied the cap would be mean a payment of around £5-6k, no matter what his weekly pay actually is. I always take the view that in these sort of situations that your value to company is inversely proportional to the offer they make.
they will not allow him vr due to his significant skill value to the department
If I were him I’d be looking for, unless the sector is tiny, a job elsewhere as they appear to be undermining his ability to do his job appropriately
They are undermining him. How can he, as a skilled practitioner, who came into the job to specifically practise his specialism, be asked then to cover other specialisms that he has no experience or qualifications in, and also, to dilute his current role and the quality of what he has trained years to do to a point where he has no sense of being able to do a good and thorough job...
He is currently getting the colleagues that have had their VR accepted, and that work in the areas in which it is proposed that he will go on to cover, to write a list of their tasks, and how they came to be qualified to do those tasks. Already, some of these tasks, if not done correctly are clearly a Health & Safety issue potentially and it is unfair that he should be made responsible for that.
Earlier today, he put in his application for VR, so we'll see what happens...
Even if he does manage to get into the VR pool the company could just offer him the statutory payment which if they applied the cap would be mean a payment of around £5-6k
I don't know what sort of money you guys are knocking about, but to him £5-6k is a shit load of money that could really help him with breathing space and to get started on a different path following all of this horrible mess.
If your friend is a skilled practitioner and took years to get to this point then either they can walk straight into another similar role or may find they are too specialised to find a similar job locally.
only your friend will have an idea of how easy or hard an equivalent or better job to find will be. If they can walk then no worries, if they are very specialised then some different tasks and training might be a blessing.