[Closed] Anti Muslim sentiment accusations

Are you basing how many Muslims 'speak out' against extremism on the amount of coverage it receives in the media? I don't see what else you can be basing it on and that's pretty idiotic IMO.

I have a problem with certain aspects of some versions of Islam - expecting them to all feel responsible for a lunatic fringe is ridiculous though.

JY +1

surfer - Member

Really? There are plenty speaking out against it FFS.

But they appear to be mainly outside the faith. Unless you are talking about Ayaan Hirsi Ali? Maybe she is just "lazy and ignorant! however she is under constant armed guard for the crime of apostasy.

Google 'Imams against terror'

Just because they don't copy you in on the minutes doesn't mean it's not happening.

surfer, I'm not arguing with you as I don't have the time to de-programme you..

but think about folk that had to be protected when they spoke out against the IRA.. we didn't all go round being scared of our catholic grannies as a result did we?

enough of this nonsense.. It's making me feel sad

Have we really got a situation where a billion people are all following a mob mind that many of them don't actually fully believe in?

A billion people follow Islam but, what, they're all too scared of their own religion to speak out against the more extreme bits of it?

Well you obviously haven't noticed that they are fighting wars against the extremists, such as in Syria and elsewhere. And that "we" often support and encourage the extremists, as we did in Afghanistan, and still do elsewhere.

Or had you noticed but that Muslims killing each other simply isn't enough for you and you want something a little more pro-active ?

"the treatment of women restricting their rights is not religious but culturally-based." This is an argument I've heard a lot. However on my limited travels in maybe half a dozen different muslim ccountries and Kashmir I've never seen it. Also if choice is involved, I've always been fascinated by how in some countries all the women seem to make the same choices about their attire.

I've always been fascinated by how in some countries all the women seem to make the same choices about their attire.

And the men don't seem to make the same choices about their attire ?

You can't get a clue concerning what country you might be in by looking at what attire the men choose ?

Regardless of everyone else's beliefs or efforts, Islam seems to be making a fair fist of demonising itself in our society at the moment. When it condemns terrorism across the board, renounces Sharia law, stops persecuting its own womenfolk, and promotes blanket tolerance towards non-Muslims, then it can come and play with the other children again.

Yes but we all know you are the intolerant lot* 🙄

* SATIRE CONTENT

we didn't all go round being scared of our catholic grannies as a result did we?

Anyone here been following the Tower Hamlets election fiasco?

Seems to have been some remarkably dodgy dealings going on!

There's a certain irony of claiming that Muslims in "our society", as Cougar puts it, are intolerant of others when the parties of intolerance made huge sweeping gains throughout Europe last week.

I guess it was a commitment to tolerance that attracted all those votes which resulted in UKIP winning a nationwide election last week 🙂

when it all kicked off royally a few years back the Immams and mosques were doing precisely what you say they are not doing..

Good. But as I said, if that is the case then they have a PR issue (and / or we have a media issue, but we knew that), because that's not what I heard from their appointed spokesmen on the radio and I don't recall any other media saying much different at the time.

You say this like you are some sort of expert on Muslims and what they do,

Far from it, and I've never claimed to be, though I'd like to know more. But we are discussing the wider populace's [i]perception [/i]of the Islamic faith are we not? Those perceptions aren't necessarily accurate.

If Islam is bothered about its image in the West then it needs to be more active in improving that image. If Muslims [i]aren't[/i] bothered about what non-Muslims think then that's fair enough of course, more power to their elbow. But it seems short-sighted to bleat on about "irrational fear" if the only embassadors to the faith everyone else notices are terrorists. That's not irrational fear; it's misplaced perhaps, ignorant even, but it's pretty rational if that's all people are seeing. (And of course, that could well be a failing of the ones doing the perceiving.)

What sort of access do yu think they have to media?

That's a very good point of course. I've never seen a brown person on television.

They do speak out in the mosques and their community events and withing their communities

unfortunately neither you nor the UK media attend these events nor reports on it

And there's the rub, isn't it. There's not enough visibilty, not enough communication. And if all that people see is negative, rightly or wrongly, then the rise of the opposite fringe, UKIP and worse, is all but inevitable. It's all rather depressing.

Why don't the media report on it, incidentally? Are they not bothered, or are they not allowed?

That's a very good point of course. I've never seen a brown person on television.

[img] [/img]

Cougar - Moderator

their appointed spokesmen

Who do you think "appoints" them? What usually happens is you get random imams or "community leaders" rolled out but it's like listening to the Taxpayer's Alliance or Jeremy Clarkson, the person you're hearing is the person who wants to be heard not necessarily the person "the community" would choose to speak for them.

An Imam from a mosque is in a position of leadership of that mosque; they're representative of their specific community by definition, are they not? Have I missed something there?

Well, the media often present them as such, but is that a reflection of the actual situation? Mr Khan, anyone?

They're the spiritual head of that tiny part of the community, yes. That doesn't make them authorities that can speak for them, especially on non-religious matters, let alone for the wider community. How much heed would you give to a random church of england preacher, if they were suddenly on the news telling you how christians think?

You also talk about "muslims" as if it's all one group, but you'd not accept the Pope speaking for the Church of England, or a church elder from the Wee Frees.

Anjem Choudary gets (or has had) more airtime than any other 'spokesman' yet represents a few hundred people. But his views are divisive and will cause a stir. Gory makes story.

Anjem Choudary gets (or has had) more airtime than any other 'spokesman' yet represents a few hundred people. But his views are divisive and will cause a stir. Gory makes story.

And he seems to be the "darling" of the BBC and whilst he is a nasty piece of work the BBC reaches more people than almost anything else in the UK and nobody would claim he was representative however the alternatives unelected groups referred to above are hardly representative either.

surfer - Member
And he seems to be the "darling" of the BBC and whilst he is a nasty piece of work the BBC reaches more people than almost anything else in the UK and nobody would claim he was representative however the alternatives unelected groups referred to above are hardly representative either.

What's your point, caller? That there's not really anyone who can speak for Islam as a whole? Congratulations.

Fair enough Lifer 🙄 It does make imans against terror rather meaningless and unrepresentative also, wouldnt you agree?

If Islam is bothered about its image in the West then it needs to be more active in improving that image. If Muslims aren't bothered about what non-Muslims think then that's fair enough of course, more power to their elbow. But it seems short-sighted to bleat on about "irrational fear" if the only embassadors to the faith everyone else notices are terrorists. That's not irrational fear; it's misplaced perhaps, ignorant even, but it's pretty rational if that's all people are seeing. (And of course, that could well be a failing of the ones doing the perceiving.)

Sounds like you're blaming Muslims for the fact that the media always portrays them negatively, rather than blaming the media.

Why don't the media report on it, incidentally? Are they not bothered, or are they not allowed?

The media narrative which sells newspapers is that Muslims are the 'other' - they are different and scary and full of hate for us and our western values. Anything that doesn't fit into that narrative doesn't get airtime/column inches, basically.

I don't think the Press are anti Islam any more than they were anti IRA, or recently anti UKIP, they have their little biases from time to time if they are given cause.

I do however feel remorse for what happens at times to Muslims over here at a personal level as demonstrated to a prospective son in law when he had the gall to sit with his back pack on a pile of his luggage waiting to be met at Charing Cross, what happened to him was probably what that unfortunate Brazilian lad tried to avoid and ended up being shot for it.

So it's not just the Press that are prejudiced against Religious or Racial Types. Then again he might have been a Hindu, how were they to know, it wasn't writ large on his back pack.

But why is it happening? Well we'll soon not be permitted to know exactly since the Chilcott enquiry isn't going to show who possibly the real criminal in all this is.

As to the school thing I'm against any religion being forced on kids other than that which has been the status quo for centuries here and is easily ignored without fear of death or honour killing.

If a multi national muslim task force were to say attack and depose Mugabe, then leave, I don't think I'd be headed out there with a group of Christian soldiers hell bent on jihad, holy war, or whatever, it just wouldn't happen.

Islam sadly is the religion most likely to encourage war on its behalf, that is a fact we can either appease, or ignore at our peril imv, I don't think there is another doctrine quite like it, so we should be on our guard however unpleasant it ends up being, but it doesn't make what happens to individuals at times any less unpleasant.

I don't think the Press are anti Islam any more than they were anti IRA, or recently anti UKIP, they have their little biases from time to time if they are given cause.

You don't think the Daily Mail, Daily Star/Daily Express and The Sun are anti-Islam?

[And in what way were the press Anti-UKIP by the way? They gave them a ludicrously out-of-proportion amount of free advertising.]

Islam sadly is the religion most likely to encourage war on its behalf

So what's our excuse?

surfer - Member

Fair enough Lifer It does make imans against terror rather meaningless and unrepresentative also, wouldnt you agree?

I wasn't referring to a specific group in my 'google imams against terror' post, rather the number of results of different imams/muslims/groups denouncing terrorism.

grum - Member
"Islam sadly is the religion most likely to encourage war on its behalf"

So what's our excuse?

C'mon grum, it's never holy war when we do it. Even when our leaders say it is.

Sounds like you're blaming Muslims for the fact that the media always portrays them negatively, rather than blaming the media.

I'm not blaming anyone, and I thought I'd been careful enough in my wording to make that clear but evidently not.

Whether Islam being treated with suspicion or worse by some non-Muslims is the fault of Islam itself, its practitioners, the media, confirmation bias in the observer, or good old-fashioned racism, I couldn't begin to speculate. There's almost certainly room for improvement at all levels though.

For those who claim not to be frightened by either Christianity, the Jewish faith or Islam, I suggest reading Leviticus from the Bible and the verses in the Koran concerning non Muslims.

I'm not going to look at Leviticus if it's going to frighten me.

I'm not blaming anyone, and I thought I'd been careful enough in my wording to make that clear but evidently not.

Not when you say stuff like this Cougar. Seems pretty clear who you're blaming TBH.

Regardless of everyone else's beliefs or efforts, Islam seems to be making a fair fist of demonising itself in our society at the moment. When it condemns terrorism across the board, renounces Sharia law, stops persecuting its own womenfolk, and promotes blanket tolerance towards non-Muslims, then it can come and play with the other children again.

"the treatment of women restricting their rights is not religious but culturally-based." This is an argument I've heard a lot. However on my limited travels in maybe half a dozen different muslim ccountries and Kashmir I've never seen it. Also if choice is involved, I've always been fascinated by how in some countries all the women seem to make the same choices about their attire.

As someone who has grown up around different types of Muslims from many different countries and counts many Muslims as good friends - many far more like family, I have had a lot of exposure to Islamic and cultural perspectives, values and customs. They are not the same, they are not homogenous and religion and culture can be seen as different but not isolated things. It's also worth remembering that causation and correlation are not the same thing.

If Islam is bothered about its image in the West then it needs to be more active in improving that image.

Oh and Junky +100

I really did phrase that spectacularly badly. Sorry.

The key word there was "seems" (and this is the second time I've tried to clarify that). And it does [i]seem[/i] to be; those are the impressions I get. If there is a fluffy side to Islam then it's not as readily apparent; as religions go it comes across as one of the more inflexible ones. There doesn't appear to be a lot of wiggle room like there is with, say, modern Christianity, where people can go to church for Christmas mass and forget about it for the other 364 days of the year. I don't think I've ever encountered anyone who would define themselves as slightly Muslim.

Now, my perception could be way off. And that, as I said, could be my own failing, or the fault of the media, or the fault of the religion itself. I live in an area with an above average Asian population and even then I really know comparatively little about the [s]culture[/s] religion, so it must be even more impenetrable to the UKIP-voting middle-class middle-Englanders.

Farage-a-like makes spectacular U-turn 😀

I don't think I've ever encountered anyone who would define themselves as slightly Muslim.

I have certainly met semi-lapsed Muslims.

[i][b]Asked how important religion was to them 78% of British Muslims said very important, but 48% of them also said they never attended a mosque, with another 6% saying they only attended for special occassions.[/i][/b]

[url= http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/291&date=2013-03-21 ]NOP Poll of British Muslims[/url]

I don't think I've ever encountered anyone who would define themselves as slightly Muslim.
I have certainly met semi-lapsed Muslims.

Me too. They definitely exist!

That's a really interesting read Ernie, thanks.

They definitely exist!

I don't doubt they exist, I've just never knowingly met one. I've met people who have renounced Islam completely though (but not many, I can think of two offhand).

Course, it'll not be that obvious when you meet a slightly-muslim or an ex-muslim, unless they have it on a t-shirt.

Can I request a "lapsed atheist" T shirt?
😀

I've just never knowingly met one.

Perhaps they are reluctant to let you know because of how they perceive your attitude to be ?

I encourage people of different cultures/nationalities/religions to talk to me about their culture/countries/religions because I genuinely find it fascinating. And when you show interest it's surprising how much people like that and want to tell you about their culture/countries/religions.

I really did phrase that spectacularly badly. Sorry.

The key word there was "seems" (and this is the second time I've tried to clarify that). And it does seem to be; those are the impressions I get. If there is a fluffy side to Islam then it's not as readily apparent; as religions go it comes across as one of the more inflexible ones. There doesn't appear to be a lot of wiggle room like there is with, say, modern Christianity, where people can go to church for Christmas mass and forget about it for the other 364 days of the year. I don't think I've ever encountered anyone who would define themselves as slightly Muslim.

Now, my perception could be way off. And that, as I said, could be my own failing, or the fault of the media, or the fault of the religion itself. I live in an area with an above average Asian population and even then I really know comparatively little about the culture religion, so it must be even more impenetrable to the UKIP-voting middle-class middle-Englanders.

And when you show interest it's surprising how much people like that and want to tell you about their culture/countries/religions.

Doesn't work so well when you look like you're desperately planning escape routes, looking for wires sticking out of their bags and muttering panic stricken prayers to yer maker

konabunny - Member
The focus of your commentary has changed to you from The Muslims and The Islam.

Perhaps the term should be Muslamic? Yes! 😈 Waited 7 pages to say this ... 😆

Oh ya btw if you ever lived in a Muslamic country then you should know that they practically anti all other belief systems. i.e. opposite to yours. I used to live there I know and can't be arsed to debate about it anymore. A waste of time really so just have machete style conflict will do. Plenty of zombie maggots there when religion is concerned. 😈