[Closed] Anti Muslim sentiment accusations

Frankly it is tiresome.

1) Reading it isn't mandatory, as the ever-diplomatic unspellable_arseypants suggests.

2) If you don't like the direction the discussion is going why not lead by example rather than whining about it?

3) This kind of thread latterly seems to have started attracting a special kind of poster, one who makes sweeping statements about how the other posters are conducting themselves. As far as I can tell, the various cries of persecution / bullying / posturing / closed-mindedness etc etc appear largely baseless. That is to say, it may well have been true in the past, but the causes of such behaviour has (mostly) been removed; yet, some people seem to thrive on judging others by what's happened historically. So if you're going to say that people are doing x, y and z then you're going to have to cite what you're referring to, otherwise I'd respectfully suggest that your pants are on fire.

(* - somewhat ironically given the thread's subject matter)

anagallis_arvensis - Member
Well see my second point then.

I take it you used to take your toys away if the game didn't go your own way...?

No, just trying to help you out. If the threads so pointless and tiresome for you then dont post.

The purpose of a faith based school is to indoctrinate children into a given faith system. You may argue that religious education is not the same as indoctrination and you would be correct. Religious education would be the teaching of religious history and beliefs accross the various world religions to help children develop an understanding of religions and their place in the history and present of mankind. Faith schools on the whole do not do this. Instead they offer a typically monotheistic education citing the relgion of the school as the "correct" religion and reinforcing that view through repetition and immersion, that is a fair defintion of indoctrination.

I am glad that people are finally speaking out against the indoctrination of children as it's shameful and disgusting. In regard to the OP's post - I believe it is fair to say that the media and others are questioning how some islamic schools operate and coming up in some cases with very disturbing answers. When I see little people dressed up in religious garb I find it so, so sad.

Couger, its not unspellable its latin aint it. Had you gone to a good catholic school you might be able to spell it.

jambalaya

Ah right i took it out of context, Sorry.

I think ban would be OTT but i dont want to pay for it or have it forced on me.
If they pay they can , begrudgingly * do as they please.

* wont someone think of the children

The government have a body that watch the ins and outs of there practices
for years. Surprised people think this is actuarially new news ?

Couger, its not unspellable its latin

Iron. Ing.

(unspellable_arseypants suffers 'recognition of sarcasm' failure).

Anyway - god in schools, eh? No thanks. 😀

It is fascinating how the discussion has digressed. There have been very few direct responses to my questions in the op. I really wasn't asking for opinions on religious preference or whether RI is acceptable in schools. More whether the current reporting of possible extremist teaching in specifically Islamic schools was bias, and/or whether people feel the Muslim community is trying to hide something.

Iron. Ing.

(unspellable_arseypants suffers 'recognition of sarcasm' failure).

Whoosh.....
Latin, Catholicism, schools, yes? No?
Never mind.

Blimey. I just read all this, and I can't believe people are arguing about it!

Surely, experience teaches us that if someone believes I made up nonsense like religion - no amount of reasoning will sway them. Just avoid the nutters in real life.

More whether the current reporting of possible extremist teaching in specifically Islamic schools was bias,

and/or whether people feel the Muslim community is trying to hide something

HTH

What's your evidence and /or research for those statements Junkyard?
Or am I missing an implied inflection in the tone of your text? 🙂

Should this be surprising to non Muslims? - What the **** has it got to do with non Muslims? do Muslims have a right or indeed any inclination to investigate and oppose the Christian Sunday School across the road from me?

Is this something you are concerned about and what possible negative outcome could result in withdrawing interference? - I'm no expert but I'm pretty certain there are all sorts of different schools around the world with many different languages, approaches and religions as their base.. Do we feel threatened by Steiner schools for example?

Do you believe there is false reporting and possibly a deliberate attempt to bolster anti Muslim sentiment from within the government as suggested? - Possibly, but only cos there is no sane alternative explanation for any sort of outcry..

As far as I'm aware. Steiner schools aren't under investigation at the moment.
I'm asking what you believe. I asked questions. If I wanted to make sweeping statements, I would have done so in the op and the thread would then be a discussion of my views.

Do you really want me to expand

Sometimes some of the anti muslim thing is just that - Halal meat is one i tend to think is just anti muslim rhetoric. You are eating chickens industrial bred in pens they cannot move and then served to you in a bucket from an american company. You then want to discuss your heritage being ruined and animal welfare issue.. I dont believe you. Ditto schools some just use it as a rod to beat them

However I have worked in an Islamic girls school for almost 1 minute till my penis meant I was banned.
My organisation would never had given in to sexism amd IMHO racism had a "white school" asked for a male white person for example.

They also struggle to teach art and music due to their interpretation and I doubt they cover evolution all that well. I think they are more dogmatic/faith based than other [christian] religions

i have no experience of other faith schools

Sorry.. I wasn't specifically having a pop at you gears suck.. just at the blatant demonisation of islam that seems so ****ing normal and acceptable in our society

Regardless of everyone else's beliefs or efforts, Islam seems to be making a fair fist of demonising itself in our society at the moment. When it condemns terrorism across the board, renounces Sharia law, stops persecuting its own womenfolk, and promotes blanket tolerance towards non-Muslims, then it can come and play with the other children again.

(aaah... good ninja edit - sound points)

well.. I would say that they have every reason to be paranoid that war is being waged against them..

The way our media covers any remotely iffy (or horrendous) story that occurs within the immensely huge and diverse global Islamic community and screams 'look at them... this is what they are like'

It's bollocks innit

, Islam seems

Some of Islam seems Cougar, some of

All creeds have their extremists even MTB ers - not meaning you and not just SS either.

"seems"

Every group has their extremists; however wouldn't most reputable groups do something about extremists who didn't actually reflect their views rather than go "nowt to do with us guv," maybe exercise their majority to try and persuade them that they're not representative?

They do but we hear little about it as it does not sell newspapers

Interestingly my mate[ Blackburn] had this at his mosque way before 9/11 with extremists infiltrating it. They went to the police who said it had nothing to do with them
The community fought back and reclaimed the mosque and also the youth and noe work very closely with the police and tackle this issue often.

FWIW most of the extremists are mentally ill with a history of drug abuse and are often converts to Islam.
They do work against this but few of us know any Muslim sor go down the mosque to know what they fdo and most importantly this does not sell papers
When did you last read a positive EU story ? A positive story about someone on benefits? or a cyclist story ?
Same for Muslims but they are more scary

We hear of the islamic nutters like we hear of the cyclist who ride on pavements and we do nothing to stop them or RLJ either- same old same old

wouldn't most reputable groups do something about extremists who didn't actually reflect their views

How would that happen though?

When a Christian person or extremist group performs an atrocity do we each personally as part of a global Christian community jump up and stride out into the world to calm everyone down and allay fears?

Do you?

I'm pretty sure that for every specific incident, Muslim leaders in the effected communities come out to state that the shit that went down was not in the name of Islam..?
Are there not police and armed forces in each localised incident tackling the problem to the best of their abilities..?

Yunki did you get an e-mail from me /STW re your P?

errrrr non..?

How recently..? I cleaned out the last few weeks inbox with a flamethrower yesterday

Sometimes some of the anti muslim thing is just that - Halal meat is one i tend to think is just anti muslim rhetoric. You are eating chickens industrial bred in pens they cannot move and then served to you in a bucket from an american company. You then want to discuss your heritage being ruined and animal welfare issue.. I dont believe you. Ditto schools some just use it as a rod to beat them

+1

Every group has their extremists; however wouldn't most reputable groups do something about extremists who didn't actually reflect their views rather than go "nowt to do with us guv," maybe exercise their majority to try and persuade them that they're not representative?

I imagine if I was a 'moderate' Muslim I'd probably get pretty pissed off about constantly being asked to prove I wasn't an extremist and to condemn terrorism etc. I don't recall anyone asking moderate Christians to condemn Anders Breivik.

I know it's not quite the same because there is a reasonably prevalent strain of Islam that is quite extreme, but still...

Regardless of everyone else's beliefs or efforts, Islam seems to be making a fair fist of demonising itself in our society at the moment. When it condemns terrorism across the board, renounces Sharia law, stops persecuting its own womenfolk, and promotes blanket tolerance towards non-Muslims, then it can come and play with the other children again.

Or perhaps...
- some people who are Muslims use Islam as an excuse for their own intolerance and narrow-mindedness which we are then particularly made aware of by the established media
- there is no singular 'it' any more than there is a singular Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish or atheist 'it'.
- more terrorism is perpetrated against Muslims than Muslims perpetrate against others but this isn't brought to our attention
- most concepts in Sharia law are actually very simple, reasonable and have a lot in common with our own laws
- some Sharia laws are perverted by some people to assert control over others when that is not actually supported by Sharia law
- there is not really an 'it' which can condemn terrorism. Not one Muslim I know is supportive of terrorism
- Islam is actually more tolerant than most religions...
- the treatment of women restricting their rights is not religious but culturally-based.

Yunki YGM

Every group has their extremists; however wouldn't most reputable groups do something about extremists who didn't actually reflect their views rather than go "nowt to do with us guv," maybe exercise their majority to try and persuade them that they're not representative?

Why won't the Wee Frees denounce Anders Breivik? Why won't Christians stop oppressing their womenfolk so that 50% of women in the US and UK aren't sexually harassed or assaulted in their lives? Why won't peaceful English people stand up and apologize for the Westboro Baptist Church?

See how easy and facile it is to make up these false premises?

Seems that bearing in mind the above comments a sensible position to take would be to want religion to have nothing to do with the education of children bearing in mind it's inconsistent teaching, dubious moral value and potential for misinterpretation. I think the Catholic church is also under pretty tight scrutiny too, they even sacked their CEO (for health reasons), so it's not just Islam. I had hoped that religion was behind us. I think what many fear but perhaps articulate poorly is the general regrowth of any religion as a force in society. Islam seems to be rising as does fundemetal christianity in reponse and I'd rather not be stuck in the bloody middle of two sets of loonies arguing over their imaginary friends.

So as muslims seem so peaceful,has there ever been a time when they haven't been at war with each other or other religions, they just seem a very sensitive cult/belief

The deep thinkers always come out about midnight and show there sensitive side

Thank God I live in a mainly christian country where none of that shit ever happens

Peace be with you - a cultural reference no doubt lost on you

Every group has their extremists; however wouldn't most reputable groups do something about extremists ............maybe exercise their majority to try and persuade them that they're not representative?

In the case of "extremists" within Islam they often see other Muslims as both legitimate targets of violence and often a greater enemy than non-Muslims.

Al Qaeda for example have a policy of killing other Muslims because firstly they believe that violence is necessary to create the conditions of chaos, instability, and eventual overthrow of the existing order, and secondly, because the real enemy for them are the majority of Muslims whom they consider to be guilty of apostasy.

Wahhabism/Salafism considers any Muslim who doesn't support strict fundamentalist sharia law to be an unbeliever or kafir under takfir.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Salafism

To these extremists a Muslim guilty of apostasy, ie, the majority of Muslims in their eyes, is worse than being a Christian or Jew. There is no death penalty for being a Christian or Jew but there is for apostasy.

So any Muslim trying to [i]"persuade them that they're not representative"[/i] are unlikely to succeed and more likely to be targeted. Haven't you heard that Al Qaeda kills rather a lot of Muslims ?

So as muslims seem so peaceful,has there ever been a time when they haven't been at war with each other or other religions, they just seem a very sensitive cult/belief

Still, I don't mind the animists too much, but I'm probably a bit biased, being a Zoroastrian meself...

Every group has their extremists; however wouldn't most reputable groups do something about extremists who didn't actually reflect their views rather than go "nowt to do with us guv," maybe exercise their majority to try and persuade them that they're not representative?

Who are we talking about here, I couldn't find the original post. Kind of looks like your describing Tony Blair and his friends leading us into Iraq and my subsequent response.

See how easy and facile it is to make up these false premises?

Except its not is it? There is a reasonable expectation that like minded people should condem those around them. For example British Muslims openly criticising the murderers of Lee Rigby. You may find a few words of condemnation if you look hard enough but hardly an outpouring.
If you cant see that Islam is a greater threat from all of the other "groups" that you list then you are naive. They all have their nutcases however few people live in fear of Sikhism for example.

And there we have it.. that is the net result of the demonisation in a nutshell

were you frightened of Muslims before 9/11?

How would that happen though?

When a little girl gets kidnapped, their parents come on the radio and plead with the kidnappers to send her home. Last time I heard a spokesman from a Blackburn mosque on the radio following some terrorist activity or other the gist of his sentiment was to distance them from 'real' Muslims. Which is a good start, but where's the "so if you're listening, please stop it"? Where's the "so we're talking with other Imams to try and root these people out of our communities"? Where's the "we're preaching to our flock that this is wrong"? And if they're doing all those things then at the very least they need to work on their PR.

When a Christian person or extremist group performs an atrocity do we each personally as part of a global Christian community jump up and stride out into the world to calm everyone down and allay fears?

Do you?

Well, I don't, because I'm not a Christian. But if someone was committing atrocities in my name then I'd like to think that I'd be doing whatever I could to get them to stop it. Seems like the decent, sensible thing to do to me.

Why won't peaceful English people stand up and apologize for the Westboro Baptist Church?

Plenty do. People rally against their rallies these days. There was no funeral for Fred Phelps (as far as I know) due to their fear of protesters, as a random example.

So any Muslim trying to "persuade them that they're not representative" are unlikely to succeed and more likely to be targeted. Haven't you heard that Al Qaeda kills rather a lot of Muslims ?

Islam is a religion followed by a billion people

A billion people follow Islam but, what, they're all too scared of their own religion to speak out against the more extreme bits of it? Have we really got a situation where a billion people are all following a mob mind that many of them don't actually fully believe in?

And there we have it.. that is the net result of the demonisation in a nutshell

were you frightened of Muslims before 9/11?

I'm not sure of the point you are trying to make. Are you saying Islam is "deomonised"? If so are you saying people are irrational who fear Islam and/or are you saying the demonisation is unfair?

Surfer - yes, yes and yes and emphatically ****ing yes with big fat hairy balls on!!

You can read back through the thread to find my exact stance on this with all points very clearly laid out

Cougar - I think that you're kinda talking nonsense there a bit mate - when it all kicked off royally a few years back the Immams and mosques were doing precisely what you say they are not doing..

this is in danger of becoming an obtuse thread now

You can read back through the thread to find my exact stance on this

Fair enough Yunki I dont have time to follow it closely. You are wrong however there is nothing irrational about fearing Islam and ref your last point if they were they were doing it incredibly quietly.

surfer - Member

Are you saying Islam is "deomonised"? If so are you saying people are irrational who fear Islam and/or are you saying the demonisation is unfair?

I am.

Cougar - Moderator
A billion people follow Islam but, what, they're all too scared of their own religion to speak out against the more extreme bits of it? Have we really got a situation where a billion people are all following a mob mind that many of them don't actually fully believe in?

Really? There are plenty speaking out against it FFS.

Surfer - I disagree.. I think it's lazy and ignorant to fear Islam, and irrational in the same way that it is irrational to fear spiders

Really? There are plenty speaking out against it FFS.

But they appear to be mainly outside the faith. Unless you are talking about Ayaan Hirsi Ali? Maybe she is just "lazy and ignorant! however she is under constant armed guard for the crime of apostasy.

You may find a few words of condemnation if you look hard enough but hardly an outpouring.

Utter utter BS /blind ignorance nearing racism and absolutely wrong

Will you avail yourself of the facts

https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=muslims%20condemn%20lee%20rigby%20murder

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/may/26/muslim-community-responds-woolwich-killing

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/24/british-muslims-condemn-savage-attack-on-drummer-lee-rigby_n_3329691.html

I am not sure whether you believe that

If you cant see that Islam is a greater threat from all of the other "groups" that you list then you are naive. They all have their nutcases however few people live in fear of Sikhism for example.

Out of interest what would your view be if a multi national force of Muslims was invading countries and then carrying out drone attacks on foreign lands --- that us by the way- still we should be shit scared of the threat they pose us and they are the war crazy ones eh..PFFFt facts **** them I dont want them to get in the way of my rant

he very least they need to work on their PR.

Still that is there fault eh

if someone was committing atrocities in my name

A billion people follow Islam but, what, they're all too scared of their own religion to speak out against the more extreme bits of it?

They do speak out in the mosques and their community events and withing their communities

unfortunately neither you nor the UK media attend these events nor reports on it

Its verging on lunacy [ and it is a whopping lie] to think they do not speak out about it tbh.

If you read 1984 it argues that s the country needs something to fear to keep the folk in line . No one knew what it would be after communism - remember they wanted to klill us all and destroy oiur very way of life as well - and now we have Islam to threaten our very way of life and a fabricated document to justify war....still bloody war crazy Muslims eh 🙄

Its BS we are invading them they are not invading us.