[Closed] Another moral dilemma.

Whats his log in name on here, sounds like a sound chap.

grass him up. there is doing a bit on the side and there is being a crook

Put hidden cameras in his apartment and in the hall, then grass him up.

Grass the ****.

What do you think?

Probably above anything else, it doesn't sound like a very good environment for children.

Grass him up and get child services involved.
Oh, and make him eat the lead.

http://www.crimestoppers-uk.org/giving-information

https://secure.dwp.gov.uk/benefitfraud/

there you go you dont even have to go out

What Junkyard said ^

If you can hand-on-heart say you've never nicked lead off a roof then good luck to you sir

Grass them up.
Having been burgled twice in the last year, I think housebreakers are absolute scum bags. The first break-in really affected me - waking up every night for the slightest noise. If I ever caught one in the house, I would gladly kill them.

The Country is in such a financial mess partly due to such people, why should the people who live an honest life, pay taxes etc fund his (and her) lifestyle, when they clearly have no morals and are so blase about their law breaking.

Alan.

Where is the dilemma?...

The dilemma is that 'grassing' is not something I'm comfortable with, & if I do will the police actually do anything? Ronnie Biggs he is not, they probably have better things to do.

Cheers.

Of course they will follow it up, theft is taken seriously.

If you'd been burglarized and a mate knew of a burglar how would you feel if he didn't shop him?

I had a tenant who was a heroin addict, he stole off all the other tenants, one of whom called me in the middle of the night and said there was loads of nicked gear in the lounge. I went round found a set of alloys, car stereos, two tvs and loads of other random crap. So I called the cops. Did they come? NO. Did they even call me back? No.

So I say give it try. I'll bet my hat they stay in the canteen and ignore you.

I cannot believe you are asking such a question.

This guy is trash and needs removing from society.

You have said he is a thief, he abuses his wife and what about the kids?

If you don't do anything you are as bad as him!

As for mentioning the word 'grass' if you are uncomfortable with dealing with the police maybe you are not quite so cleaned and honest yourself?

The end.

Quite an appropriate OP username...

It's against the law to take lead off church roofs.? Whatever next.!

Seriously though I'd grass him up then sit back and watch the fun.

No dilemma in grassing him up, but is there any issue with the way you've entered the flat? From a prosecution point of view like.

this is NOT a dilemma . . . .

just do it.

see... I like good honest decent law-abiding folk... but I also have a lot of time and love in my heart for cheeky crooks and scoundrels..
so which is best..?

there's only one way to find out...

FFIIIIGGGHHHHHHHT!!!!!

Snitch.

So,let me get this right. You have a young family living in a small, filthy,damp flat that you want to grass up cos they supplement their meager benefits with a little bit of extra cash, isn't he just showing a bit of initiative in providing a bit extra for his family? Surely they are struggling to make ends meet in these tough economic times. Are you sure the lead/tv/etc was stolen, how do you know it was stolen?
Not only that it sounds like the guy has medical issues i.e alcohol dependence and mental health issues. It sounds like they need help, not throwing out on the streets.

pfft some people 🙄

.......and, as if that poor woman doesn't already have enough problems, you're going to put her old man in prison.

Don't be so bleedin heartless.

Anyone care to give me a reason not to grass him up to anyone who'll listen?

Given that you haven't actually been in the flat, what are you going to say to the police? Surely the guy who saw all this stuff has to report it, no?

Is he a roofer?

ernie and piha condones breaking the law or is that some laws depending on how you feel or your own moral code? Bet it would be different if it was your roof lead or you had been broken in to? We live by the law and it applies across the country. If you dont like it suggest you move say to Naples or Sicily, lot of people there who think the same about the law. See how you feel then.

Is he a roofer?

Aye, a roofer who fixes tellys as a hobby in the evenings 😆

There's nothing wrong with breaking the law every now and again Pawsy_Bear .......I do it all the time.

I suppose you're goody two-shoes 😐

"Discount for cash, mate?"

Ernie (at the weekend):

[img] [/img]

My standard answer: "Oh, you want to pay by cheque? That price was for cash!"

Anyway, he abuses her physically & mentally, but that's by the by, her choice not to kick him out, probably..

?

🙄 Irony is so difficult to get over on forums!

I'm surprised you [i]have[/i] any morals allthegearnoidea! 😆 Bring it to the attention of your boss; it's his flat, it affects his business, it'll be up to him how he deals with it.

ernie - I just dont think its morally right to steal. Guess from your reply you do, maybe if they had stolen your bike and it was in the flat you would find that acceptable? I think the victims of crime have a view and a right to justice and protection under the law and support from society. Therefore I see no moral dilemma. If you break the law I would report it.

whooosh

ernie is STW's own petty criminal. He's got all the gear and is never short of an idea.

There's a woman lives near me, she's never had a job as far as I can tell, although she's a bit old for that now. Lives in a massive house, has several cars, always got new outfits on takes loads of foreign holidays all at taxpayers' expense.

She's got several kids with her no-good racist husband, none of them seem to do much either speshly her younger sons who are always up to some scam or another, the middle one is involved with all sorts of dodgy deals with swarthy foreign types. Her daughter isn't too bad actually, does seem to put in a bit of graft. And her grandkids seem a good bit more responsible, her eldest son's two are in the military I think. Mind you, one of them's clearly the son of some other bloke her former daughter in law was shagging behind her husband's back; you can tell cos he's got ginger hair.

All her kids seem to have blagged nice houses off the state too. And they're all a bit, well, inbred looking if you know what I mean....

Proper bunch of shysters if you ask me.

Should I grass them up?

That households sounds like a right ... royal .... mess

you can tell cos he's got ginger hair

Grass um up...

Worst that happens is our wonderful justice system finds him innocent.

The dilemma is that 'grassing' is not something I'm comfortable with

Yeah but in this case, it seems that reporting the matter to the police would be something based on not very much actual 'evidence' of any wrong-doing. The Fuzz would need a bit more than 'I think this man is being a bit naughty'.

Plus, what's the actual legality of the manner of entry to the flat? Was the tenant given adequate notice? Was it some form of essential repair work that needed doing? Dunno if changing a meter falls under that. And any 'evidence' collected would have bin done so illegally, surely?

I'd get the owner of the property to have a chat with the actual tenant. Maybe that way, any potential illegal activity could be prevented.

I woon't bother going to the police; they have far bigger fish to fry. I know from personal experience that the police won't act even if there's a lot of suspicion that illegal activities are in fact taking place in a dwelling. We've got a drug-dealing prostitute near us; the police have bin informed many times, and have done bugger all.

As for 'grassing'; nowt wrong with doing the 'right thing' at all. But best to make sure you're actually right; I for one woon't be too pleased if someone reported me to the Babylonians for something they only 'thought' I was doing.

Landlord/property owner's responsibility to sort it. Leave it at that.

The Police may need further evidence before acting on any criminal behaviour. However the housing benefit fraud is easier to deal with.

Yeah but how d'you know if any actual 'fraud' is taking place? And I think it's important to consider the impact of 'grassing'; that family could end up in a very dire situation, which could have a very negative effect on the children. It's not just as simple as 'shopping a cheat'. Try to think rather than swallow the sensationalist and alarmist propaganda. Every day very rich people are scamming far, far more in tax dodges than poor people are in benefits. Fact.

Jeeze, it's a bloody good thing some of you lot don't live where I do, you'd explode with sanctimonious self-righteousness....

Now, how can I avoid paying import duty on a nice shiny new bike from the States...?

how d'you know if any actual 'fraud' is taking place?

Are the occupants of the flat hurting you or any of your family members directly ? Do you think any other members off the public are in danger from these people ?
Off course their behaving badly, but so do most people in some way or another. Hell I've just come back from a ride an must have gone down a couple of footpaths some pavements and through at least three red lights. The guy will probably be known to the police and they'll catch up with him sooner or later.
Don't listen to all the selfrighteous do gooders on here. No one likes a grass 😡

No but it's something well worth considering, JY.

Question that should be asked is 'why are they (if indeed they are and we have no actual proof of this just conjecture and suspicion) fiddling benefits'? If the answer is that they are just trying to get a bit extra sort the kids out make their lives slightly less shit, then just turn a blind eye, I reckon. Plenty far worse things going on.

But of course if it's clear they're taking the piss, then why not challenge them face to face? Because if people are challenged about something, and they know others know what they're up to, it might dissuade them from carrying on.

I don't like the idea of people sneaking about behind their neighbours' backs, reporting them to the Thought Police for any perceived infraction. Doesn't make for trust and honesty between members of a community, and helps spread fear and resentment.

No one likes a grass

For good reason...

Well, I'd keep quiet about him beating up his wife and kids, but a STOLEN TELLY?! Shop him!

Jeeeeezus, how can this even be a dilemma?

Do you think any other members off the public are in danger from these people ?

'why are they (if indeed they are and we have no actual proof of this just conjecture and suspicion) fiddling benefits'?

If the answer is that they are just trying to get a bit extra sort the kids out make their lives slightly less shit, then just turn a blind eye,

Plenty far worse things going on.

But of course if it's clear they're taking the piss, then why not challenge them face to face? Because if people are challenged about something, and they know others know what they're up to, it might dissuade them from carrying on.

I don't like the idea of people sneaking about behind their neighbours' backs, reporting them to the Thought Police for any perceived infraction. Doesn't make for trust and honesty between members of a community, and helps spread fear and resentment.

No one likes a grass
For good reason...

I have no issue with legitimate beneifit claims, I dont even have a major issue if they are not trying to find work [ someone has to not work in the modern society wher we cdont have full employment so I dont se it as their fault tbh]. However doing fraud and stealing breaks the socila contract of us all helping these folk out in their hour of need. They are taking the piss and breaking the law yet you appear to think we would be naughty for grassing.
Would it be better if we just stole his stuff and asked him not to grass on us?

Are the occupants of the flat hurting you or any of your family members directly ? Do you think any other members off the public are in danger from these people ?

Off course their behaving badly, but so do most people in some way or another. Hell I've just come back from a ride an must have gone down a couple of footpaths some pavements and through at least three red lights.

Civil laws, not criminal. Apples & Oranges.

The guy will probably be known to the police and they'll catch up with him sooner or later.
Don't listen to all the selfrighteous do gooders on here. No one likes a grass

Except perhaps the CPS and victims of crime?

Agree with others, report him, get the kids out of that situation and into somewhere where hopefully, they'll grow up with someone capable of being a decent role model.

See, based solely on the OP, how do any of you even know if this bloke is a thief or anything? You simply don''t. But that hazzunt stopped you from jumping to conclusions and letting yer prejudices take hold and judging someone you don't even flipping know!!

Perhaps the people now missing a large amount of lead from their roofs might like to chip in here

How d'you even know it's nicked? It might well be, but what happened to 'innocent until proven guilty'?

'Ooh I don't like the look of that person I think they might be up to no good I think I'll shop them to the Old Bill'.

Why not try talking to them, try find out the truth, y'know, that thing that's quite important for Justice?

And all we have is the OP's word. We jolly well have not heard from the 'Accused' at all, have we?

I'm assuming all you self-righteous sanctimonious lot are as pure as the driven snow. Course you are, yeah, right....

Civil laws, not criminal. Apples & Oranges.

Still both fruit though....

So, anyone going to advise me on how to import a bike from the States without having to pay import duties, then?

How d'you even know it's nicked? It might well be, but what happened to 'innocent until proven guilty'?

'Ooh I don't like the look of that person I think they might be up to no good I think I'll shop them to the Old Bill'.

Why not try talking to them, try find out the truth, y'know, that thing that's quite important for Justice.

I could be entirely wrong... but i believe that (unless we've become some war torn third world country) that our police force are for doing just that. Finding out what, if anything, is wrong and presenting the facts to the CPS to see if any case is to be answered? Last I checked, the police wouldn't just knock on their door, declare him a criminal and execute him for his crimes.

But of course, everyone should go up to someone they suspect to be involved in possibly criminal behaviour and enquire to their intent. "I say, old chap, you seem to have come into a large amount of lead at a time when it's price on the scrap market has risen dramatically. How fortuitous for you, although it is awfully inconvenient to store it all in your home, is it not?" is probably a good way to start the conversation with this obviously upstanding member of our community.

And above all, do not fear any recriminations from this act, I'm sure either way, he'll take it as a merry jest and you'll be laughing at it over g&t in no time.

Now you're just being silly. 🙄

Shop/grass him whatever, just do it, simples

One problem that might arise, is that the police would probbly question how anyone came to know about any possible illegal activity. I'm no lawyer, but the manner of entry into the property seems questionable to me. No way would I be wanting some 3rd party with a key entering my home and letting others in. No way. Just to change a leccy meter? That would require a court order or something, surely? A landlord has to request permission to enter a property, regardless of what anyone else thinks. As it wouldn't be an emergency, they'd have to arrange it with the tenant, and not just let themselves in unless authorised to do so by the tenant. Anything else is illegal.

I think someone should report an illegal entry....

And any 'evidence' of illegal activity by the tenant/tenant's acquaintances may well be deemed inadmissible in court.

So, who's the criminal now, then? Who should be grassed up to the rozzers?

You're slightly jumping the gun though... you're claiming illegal entry and evidence gathered... when at the moment, no such thing has taken place. As case isn't going to be brought based on the OP's statement of findings and I don't think anyone is saying so... all people are saying is... it is perhaps a matter for the police to investigate.

Usually in tenancy agreements there are clauses about landlords retaining access, granting access and so on, and it does seem that unless the electricity company could claim reasonably that the work required classified as an emergency (apparently unlikely) then the landlord is potentially in breach of his agreement. However, if the tenant refuses to allow the landlord or someone acting on their behalf into the property at what is to be considered "a reasonable time", then they would be breaching their agreement (all of this is based on standard tenancy agreements, I am not a lawyer blah blah blah)....

Personal opinion, the police are less likely to be bothered about a landlord granting dubious access to a property than checking out something that looks dodgy and potentially boosting their resolved crime numbers.

But again... all of this is down to "should this persons potentially suspicious activity be reported to the proper authorities so that correct and proper investigations can take place?"

Pipe down elf, the guy is a crook, not big time, but still a crook.
I would have no problem with grassing on him if he was by himself, he clearly won't make old age given his habits, but as others have said it will effect the family, my problem is would it be for the better or worse?
They function as a unit as that is what they are used to doing, I have no idea if they would get by without him or not.

you're claiming illegal entry... when at the moment, no such thing has taken place.

Well according to the OP, it is possible that it has. In which case, the only actual 'crime' that definitely has taken place is illegal entry.

Personal opinion, the police are less likely to be bothered about a landlord granting dubious access to a property than checking out something that looks dodgy and potentially boosting their resolved crime numbers.

That's as maybe, but the police would be obliged by law to investigate any crime that has taken pace. In this case, it may well be a case of illegal entry. They would have sufficient evidence for that. As for the supposed wrongdoings of the people in the flat, well, that would be an entirely separate issue. But the problem would be that any 'suspicion' arose during an illegal entry of a property, a person's home. That might be a tricky one legally, I dunno.

Pipe down elf, the guy is a crook, not big time, but still a crook.

And you can [i]prove[/i] this how?

As far as I am aware, unless we're living in some war torn 3rd world country, it isn't [i]illegal[/i] to have a load of roofing lead and several tellies in one's home....

I'd suspect a case of 'illegal entry' wouldn't get far.

Some very quick research (I'm bored, have nothing better to do) indicates that a landlord (or their agent) entering the property unannounced is considered trespass... a civil offence. The tenant would need to visit the court to grant a court order preventing further unannounced incursions. Only if the landlord breached this court order, is it actually considered a crime. However, should the tenant refuse the landlord entry... the same method of complaining to the court and getting a court order to force the tenant to comply could be made.

Of course it isn't illegal to have a load of roofing lead or several tellies in your home. He of course has a reasonable answer to the questions when asked by the Police though, doesn't he?

Elfinsafety - Member

And you can prove this how?

If I told you everything I knew then it would take ages & be very boring, I know because I know people who know his dealer & he in turn knows how he funds his habit, I don't think the dealer is fussy where the money comes from.

Now before you start preaching about how I associate with dodgy people, think about what you are going to say, it's almost impossible to not know the type in this here London town.

You actually just have a dilemma about whether you should tell the truth or not.

No. Bubbling someone up is not the same. You decide to involve yourself in someone elses life, business and consequences when you grass on them. Not to be done or taken lightly.

I know because I know people who know his dealer & he in turn knows how he funds his habit,

So you don't actually [i]know[/i] then, do you? All just heresay and tittle-tattle...

Of course it isn't illegal to have a load of roofing lead or several tellies in your home. He of course has a reasonable answer to the questions when asked by the Police though, doesn't he?

He also has the right to a certain degree of privacy and the 'quiet enjoyment' of his own home...

And Yossarian has it spot on.

Enough mistrust, fear and hate in our society already, without everyone grassing up their neighbours for every perceived infraction.

How would you like it if someone came into your house and took your computer with all your porn on it and your internet history to all those dodgy (and in some countries illegal) sites? And then showed it to all your friends, family and colleagues etc?

Ah, not so sanctimonious now, are you, eh?

And don't say you ain't got no porn on your poota cos you know you have so don't lie.

Fred, lots of porn on my poota, I'm not saying I'm little miss perfect!
The bloke is scum, a scrot & a thief, I could of walked past his window on my way to another flat & have seen the lead through his window quite easily, so lets stop all of this quiet enjoyment rubbish.

cos it s wrong dob him in , frigin sponger

The bloke is scum, a scrot & a thief

As he's not here to defend himself, and seeing as how you are quite clearly prejudiced against him and his family, I can't see the point in continuing this discussion really.

My personal opinion? I think you should keep your nose out of other people's affairs, as you don't actually have any proof they're doing owt wrong. Your 'information' seems to be based on little more than 2nd or even 3rd hand accounts from other people. What if someone took against you for whatever reason, and grassed you up without any good reason or evidence?

You could do worse than trying to talk to the bloke as a 'neighbour', try and be polite to him, show a bit of respect even though you clearly don't have any for him. He is after all a Human Being. You never know, you might learn something, on getting to know him, that could change your opinion of him, and your moral stance. Empathy is the key here.

Try not to see things in quite such a binary matter. Always look for the shades of grey in between.

Empathy

Can you not see I actually have a dilemma, as in the first post?

I do speak to him, when he has a problem & expects me to sort it, that's not in my remit, but I try to help when I can.

A neighbour? God I hope not, I'm far from a snob, but I work hard & I'm happy to say I don't need or want social/council housing, I work hard to live in a nice town with decent schools for my kids, yes I am fortunate, but I do put in the hours to make sure I am.

Please don't try & judge me from a post I have made on the tinternet, you know nothing about me & I hope it stays that way, not because of who you are but because the internet gives us all relative anonymity.

A neighbour? God I hope not, I'm far from a snob, but I work hard & I'm happy to say I don't need or want social/council housing, I work hard to live in a nice town with decent schools for my kids, yes I am fortunate, but I do put in the hours to make sure I am.

TBF mate, that is a bit of a snobbish statement 🙁

RichPenny, yes it looks that way, but I tried to quantify it, for me most normal people would try & live in a nice place, I appreciate that not everyone can do so, you would have to meet the man I am talking about to see how far removed he is from what I would regard as a 'normal' person.

Cheers.

A neighbour? God I hope not, I'm far from a snob, but I work hard & I'm happy to say I don't need or want social/council housing, I work hard to live in a nice town with decent schools for my kids, yes I am fortunate, but I do put in the hours to make sure I am.

You sound like a grass to me. Sorry, but you do.

If I lived in the same street or block as you I'd have you marked as 'unreliable as an aquaintance. not community minded and likely to create problems rather than solving them'.

I'd be right too, wouldn't I?

Can you not see I actually have a dilemma, as in the first post?

Why do you have a dilemma ? The woman claims housing benefit the same as millions of others. Her old man doesn't have a proper income so it doesn't matter that he lives there either, He'd only be somewhere else on housing benefit or maybe prison at £40,000 a year. It seems likely but you don't know for sure that he's a petty crook, if so the police will catch up with him, but that won't realy make any difference. He'll still go on stealing whatever the law does to him. ( not much for a bit of lead and a tv or two )
I don't often agree with Elf on most things, but he does seem to understand about communities and the many different type of people who live in them. He's right to say this family aren't monsters and the best way of keeping tabs on his offending, is for you and the rest of the community to engage with him.
Snitching probably wont help in the long run. Its the start of a slippery nasty slope.

allthegearnoidea - Member
So the people in the flat above my work place that belongs to my employer is currently rented out to a lass with 2 kids & payed for by the council, now I know she was prioritised because she was 'single' & had kids, but the father turned up a few days after she moved in, no big supprise, I understand that this is excepted pratice to obtain housing benifit
Anyway, he abuses her physically & mentally, but that's by the by, her choice not to kick him out, probably..

this sounds similar to a very well known tragedy, personnally if you are needing the reassurance of an internet forum to make independent judgement calls on this you need to look at yourself in the mirror

do what you think is right and mtfu. Ignore the "don't grass" culture promoted here, make the decision on your assessment of the facts, cultures of "silence" just lead to fear and intimidation whereever they exist

You sound like a grass to me. Sorry, but you do.

If I lived in the same street or block as you I'd have you marked as 'unreliable as an aquaintance. not community minded and likely to create problems rather than solving them'.

I'd be right too, wouldn't I?

are you the local Tony Soprano?

dont be a ****ing grass, you wouldnt want some one to do it to you would you!

I'm sure the "don't grass" brigade on here would be mightily pissed off if they'd had a crime committed against them and the locals all protected the criminal.

Where do you draw the line? Is it still OK if, say, your mum gets mugged, or do you insist on keeping your trap shut right up until we get to Victoria Climbie or Baby P?

ilovemygears - if that's not an admission of guilt I don't know what is...

You sound like a grass to me. Sorry, but you do.
If I lived in the same street or block as you I'd have you marked as 'unreliable as an aquaintance. not community minded and likely to create problems rather than solving them'.

I'd be right too, wouldn't I?

It's interesting that plenty on this thread are saying don't grass on this man who beats his partner up, but there was general outrage on the forum a few weeks ago when the owner of that car wouldn't grass up his mate who bitch slapped that cyclist.

Not sure what has become of this forum, at one time the first question would have been "is she fit?"

Has the grassing been done yet?

cant tell you as that would be grassing.