[Closed] Another moral dilemma.

how d'you know if any actual 'fraud' is taking place?

Are the occupants of the flat hurting you or any of your family members directly ? Do you think any other members off the public are in danger from these people ?
Off course their behaving badly, but so do most people in some way or another. Hell I've just come back from a ride an must have gone down a couple of footpaths some pavements and through at least three red lights. The guy will probably be known to the police and they'll catch up with him sooner or later.
Don't listen to all the selfrighteous do gooders on here. No one likes a grass 😡

No but it's something well worth considering, JY.

Question that should be asked is 'why are they (if indeed they are and we have no actual proof of this just conjecture and suspicion) fiddling benefits'? If the answer is that they are just trying to get a bit extra sort the kids out make their lives slightly less shit, then just turn a blind eye, I reckon. Plenty far worse things going on.

But of course if it's clear they're taking the piss, then why not challenge them face to face? Because if people are challenged about something, and they know others know what they're up to, it might dissuade them from carrying on.

I don't like the idea of people sneaking about behind their neighbours' backs, reporting them to the Thought Police for any perceived infraction. Doesn't make for trust and honesty between members of a community, and helps spread fear and resentment.

No one likes a grass

For good reason...

Well, I'd keep quiet about him beating up his wife and kids, but a STOLEN TELLY?! Shop him!

Jeeeeezus, how can this even be a dilemma?

Do you think any other members off the public are in danger from these people ?

'why are they (if indeed they are and we have no actual proof of this just conjecture and suspicion) fiddling benefits'?

If the answer is that they are just trying to get a bit extra sort the kids out make their lives slightly less shit, then just turn a blind eye,

Plenty far worse things going on.

But of course if it's clear they're taking the piss, then why not challenge them face to face? Because if people are challenged about something, and they know others know what they're up to, it might dissuade them from carrying on.

I don't like the idea of people sneaking about behind their neighbours' backs, reporting them to the Thought Police for any perceived infraction. Doesn't make for trust and honesty between members of a community, and helps spread fear and resentment.

No one likes a grass
For good reason...

I have no issue with legitimate beneifit claims, I dont even have a major issue if they are not trying to find work [ someone has to not work in the modern society wher we cdont have full employment so I dont se it as their fault tbh]. However doing fraud and stealing breaks the socila contract of us all helping these folk out in their hour of need. They are taking the piss and breaking the law yet you appear to think we would be naughty for grassing.
Would it be better if we just stole his stuff and asked him not to grass on us?

Are the occupants of the flat hurting you or any of your family members directly ? Do you think any other members off the public are in danger from these people ?

Off course their behaving badly, but so do most people in some way or another. Hell I've just come back from a ride an must have gone down a couple of footpaths some pavements and through at least three red lights.

Civil laws, not criminal. Apples & Oranges.

The guy will probably be known to the police and they'll catch up with him sooner or later.
Don't listen to all the selfrighteous do gooders on here. No one likes a grass

Except perhaps the CPS and victims of crime?

Agree with others, report him, get the kids out of that situation and into somewhere where hopefully, they'll grow up with someone capable of being a decent role model.

See, based solely on the OP, how do any of you even know if this bloke is a thief or anything? You simply don''t. But that hazzunt stopped you from jumping to conclusions and letting yer prejudices take hold and judging someone you don't even flipping know!!

Perhaps the people now missing a large amount of lead from their roofs might like to chip in here

How d'you even know it's nicked? It might well be, but what happened to 'innocent until proven guilty'?

'Ooh I don't like the look of that person I think they might be up to no good I think I'll shop them to the Old Bill'.

Why not try talking to them, try find out the truth, y'know, that thing that's quite important for Justice?

And all we have is the OP's word. We jolly well have not heard from the 'Accused' at all, have we?

I'm assuming all you self-righteous sanctimonious lot are as pure as the driven snow. Course you are, yeah, right....

Civil laws, not criminal. Apples & Oranges.

Still both fruit though....

So, anyone going to advise me on how to import a bike from the States without having to pay import duties, then?

How d'you even know it's nicked? It might well be, but what happened to 'innocent until proven guilty'?

'Ooh I don't like the look of that person I think they might be up to no good I think I'll shop them to the Old Bill'.

Why not try talking to them, try find out the truth, y'know, that thing that's quite important for Justice.

I could be entirely wrong... but i believe that (unless we've become some war torn third world country) that our police force are for doing just that. Finding out what, if anything, is wrong and presenting the facts to the CPS to see if any case is to be answered? Last I checked, the police wouldn't just knock on their door, declare him a criminal and execute him for his crimes.

But of course, everyone should go up to someone they suspect to be involved in possibly criminal behaviour and enquire to their intent. "I say, old chap, you seem to have come into a large amount of lead at a time when it's price on the scrap market has risen dramatically. How fortuitous for you, although it is awfully inconvenient to store it all in your home, is it not?" is probably a good way to start the conversation with this obviously upstanding member of our community.

And above all, do not fear any recriminations from this act, I'm sure either way, he'll take it as a merry jest and you'll be laughing at it over g&t in no time.

Now you're just being silly. 🙄

Shop/grass him whatever, just do it, simples

One problem that might arise, is that the police would probbly question how anyone came to know about any possible illegal activity. I'm no lawyer, but the manner of entry into the property seems questionable to me. No way would I be wanting some 3rd party with a key entering my home and letting others in. No way. Just to change a leccy meter? That would require a court order or something, surely? A landlord has to request permission to enter a property, regardless of what anyone else thinks. As it wouldn't be an emergency, they'd have to arrange it with the tenant, and not just let themselves in unless authorised to do so by the tenant. Anything else is illegal.

I think someone should report an illegal entry....

And any 'evidence' of illegal activity by the tenant/tenant's acquaintances may well be deemed inadmissible in court.

So, who's the criminal now, then? Who should be grassed up to the rozzers?

You're slightly jumping the gun though... you're claiming illegal entry and evidence gathered... when at the moment, no such thing has taken place. As case isn't going to be brought based on the OP's statement of findings and I don't think anyone is saying so... all people are saying is... it is perhaps a matter for the police to investigate.

Usually in tenancy agreements there are clauses about landlords retaining access, granting access and so on, and it does seem that unless the electricity company could claim reasonably that the work required classified as an emergency (apparently unlikely) then the landlord is potentially in breach of his agreement. However, if the tenant refuses to allow the landlord or someone acting on their behalf into the property at what is to be considered "a reasonable time", then they would be breaching their agreement (all of this is based on standard tenancy agreements, I am not a lawyer blah blah blah)....

Personal opinion, the police are less likely to be bothered about a landlord granting dubious access to a property than checking out something that looks dodgy and potentially boosting their resolved crime numbers.

But again... all of this is down to "should this persons potentially suspicious activity be reported to the proper authorities so that correct and proper investigations can take place?"

Pipe down elf, the guy is a crook, not big time, but still a crook.
I would have no problem with grassing on him if he was by himself, he clearly won't make old age given his habits, but as others have said it will effect the family, my problem is would it be for the better or worse?
They function as a unit as that is what they are used to doing, I have no idea if they would get by without him or not.

you're claiming illegal entry... when at the moment, no such thing has taken place.

Well according to the OP, it is possible that it has. In which case, the only actual 'crime' that definitely has taken place is illegal entry.

Personal opinion, the police are less likely to be bothered about a landlord granting dubious access to a property than checking out something that looks dodgy and potentially boosting their resolved crime numbers.

That's as maybe, but the police would be obliged by law to investigate any crime that has taken pace. In this case, it may well be a case of illegal entry. They would have sufficient evidence for that. As for the supposed wrongdoings of the people in the flat, well, that would be an entirely separate issue. But the problem would be that any 'suspicion' arose during an illegal entry of a property, a person's home. That might be a tricky one legally, I dunno.

Pipe down elf, the guy is a crook, not big time, but still a crook.

And you can [i]prove[/i] this how?

As far as I am aware, unless we're living in some war torn 3rd world country, it isn't [i]illegal[/i] to have a load of roofing lead and several tellies in one's home....

I'd suspect a case of 'illegal entry' wouldn't get far.

Some very quick research (I'm bored, have nothing better to do) indicates that a landlord (or their agent) entering the property unannounced is considered trespass... a civil offence. The tenant would need to visit the court to grant a court order preventing further unannounced incursions. Only if the landlord breached this court order, is it actually considered a crime. However, should the tenant refuse the landlord entry... the same method of complaining to the court and getting a court order to force the tenant to comply could be made.

Of course it isn't illegal to have a load of roofing lead or several tellies in your home. He of course has a reasonable answer to the questions when asked by the Police though, doesn't he?

Elfinsafety - Member

And you can prove this how?

If I told you everything I knew then it would take ages & be very boring, I know because I know people who know his dealer & he in turn knows how he funds his habit, I don't think the dealer is fussy where the money comes from.

Now before you start preaching about how I associate with dodgy people, think about what you are going to say, it's almost impossible to not know the type in this here London town.

You actually just have a dilemma about whether you should tell the truth or not.

No. Bubbling someone up is not the same. You decide to involve yourself in someone elses life, business and consequences when you grass on them. Not to be done or taken lightly.

I know because I know people who know his dealer & he in turn knows how he funds his habit,

So you don't actually [i]know[/i] then, do you? All just heresay and tittle-tattle...

Of course it isn't illegal to have a load of roofing lead or several tellies in your home. He of course has a reasonable answer to the questions when asked by the Police though, doesn't he?

He also has the right to a certain degree of privacy and the 'quiet enjoyment' of his own home...

And Yossarian has it spot on.

Enough mistrust, fear and hate in our society already, without everyone grassing up their neighbours for every perceived infraction.

How would you like it if someone came into your house and took your computer with all your porn on it and your internet history to all those dodgy (and in some countries illegal) sites? And then showed it to all your friends, family and colleagues etc?

Ah, not so sanctimonious now, are you, eh?

And don't say you ain't got no porn on your poota cos you know you have so don't lie.

Fred, lots of porn on my poota, I'm not saying I'm little miss perfect!
The bloke is scum, a scrot & a thief, I could of walked past his window on my way to another flat & have seen the lead through his window quite easily, so lets stop all of this quiet enjoyment rubbish.

cos it s wrong dob him in , frigin sponger

The bloke is scum, a scrot & a thief

As he's not here to defend himself, and seeing as how you are quite clearly prejudiced against him and his family, I can't see the point in continuing this discussion really.

My personal opinion? I think you should keep your nose out of other people's affairs, as you don't actually have any proof they're doing owt wrong. Your 'information' seems to be based on little more than 2nd or even 3rd hand accounts from other people. What if someone took against you for whatever reason, and grassed you up without any good reason or evidence?

You could do worse than trying to talk to the bloke as a 'neighbour', try and be polite to him, show a bit of respect even though you clearly don't have any for him. He is after all a Human Being. You never know, you might learn something, on getting to know him, that could change your opinion of him, and your moral stance. Empathy is the key here.

Try not to see things in quite such a binary matter. Always look for the shades of grey in between.

Empathy

Can you not see I actually have a dilemma, as in the first post?

I do speak to him, when he has a problem & expects me to sort it, that's not in my remit, but I try to help when I can.

A neighbour? God I hope not, I'm far from a snob, but I work hard & I'm happy to say I don't need or want social/council housing, I work hard to live in a nice town with decent schools for my kids, yes I am fortunate, but I do put in the hours to make sure I am.

Please don't try & judge me from a post I have made on the tinternet, you know nothing about me & I hope it stays that way, not because of who you are but because the internet gives us all relative anonymity.

A neighbour? God I hope not, I'm far from a snob, but I work hard & I'm happy to say I don't need or want social/council housing, I work hard to live in a nice town with decent schools for my kids, yes I am fortunate, but I do put in the hours to make sure I am.

TBF mate, that is a bit of a snobbish statement 🙁

RichPenny, yes it looks that way, but I tried to quantify it, for me most normal people would try & live in a nice place, I appreciate that not everyone can do so, you would have to meet the man I am talking about to see how far removed he is from what I would regard as a 'normal' person.

Cheers.

A neighbour? God I hope not, I'm far from a snob, but I work hard & I'm happy to say I don't need or want social/council housing, I work hard to live in a nice town with decent schools for my kids, yes I am fortunate, but I do put in the hours to make sure I am.

You sound like a grass to me. Sorry, but you do.

If I lived in the same street or block as you I'd have you marked as 'unreliable as an aquaintance. not community minded and likely to create problems rather than solving them'.

I'd be right too, wouldn't I?

Can you not see I actually have a dilemma, as in the first post?

Why do you have a dilemma ? The woman claims housing benefit the same as millions of others. Her old man doesn't have a proper income so it doesn't matter that he lives there either, He'd only be somewhere else on housing benefit or maybe prison at £40,000 a year. It seems likely but you don't know for sure that he's a petty crook, if so the police will catch up with him, but that won't realy make any difference. He'll still go on stealing whatever the law does to him. ( not much for a bit of lead and a tv or two )
I don't often agree with Elf on most things, but he does seem to understand about communities and the many different type of people who live in them. He's right to say this family aren't monsters and the best way of keeping tabs on his offending, is for you and the rest of the community to engage with him.
Snitching probably wont help in the long run. Its the start of a slippery nasty slope.

allthegearnoidea - Member
So the people in the flat above my work place that belongs to my employer is currently rented out to a lass with 2 kids & payed for by the council, now I know she was prioritised because she was 'single' & had kids, but the father turned up a few days after she moved in, no big supprise, I understand that this is excepted pratice to obtain housing benifit
Anyway, he abuses her physically & mentally, but that's by the by, her choice not to kick him out, probably..

this sounds similar to a very well known tragedy, personnally if you are needing the reassurance of an internet forum to make independent judgement calls on this you need to look at yourself in the mirror

do what you think is right and mtfu. Ignore the "don't grass" culture promoted here, make the decision on your assessment of the facts, cultures of "silence" just lead to fear and intimidation whereever they exist

You sound like a grass to me. Sorry, but you do.

If I lived in the same street or block as you I'd have you marked as 'unreliable as an aquaintance. not community minded and likely to create problems rather than solving them'.

I'd be right too, wouldn't I?

are you the local Tony Soprano?

dont be a ****ing grass, you wouldnt want some one to do it to you would you!

I'm sure the "don't grass" brigade on here would be mightily pissed off if they'd had a crime committed against them and the locals all protected the criminal.

Where do you draw the line? Is it still OK if, say, your mum gets mugged, or do you insist on keeping your trap shut right up until we get to Victoria Climbie or Baby P?

ilovemygears - if that's not an admission of guilt I don't know what is...

You sound like a grass to me. Sorry, but you do.
If I lived in the same street or block as you I'd have you marked as 'unreliable as an aquaintance. not community minded and likely to create problems rather than solving them'.

I'd be right too, wouldn't I?

It's interesting that plenty on this thread are saying don't grass on this man who beats his partner up, but there was general outrage on the forum a few weeks ago when the owner of that car wouldn't grass up his mate who bitch slapped that cyclist.

Not sure what has become of this forum, at one time the first question would have been "is she fit?"

Has the grassing been done yet?

cant tell you as that would be grassing.

Surely the grasser could tell me if he had indeed grassed, as you can't grass on yourself, can you?