[Closed] Anne Robinson does niqabs

it did seem to make interaction rather difficult

Having a bag on your head makes it harder to speak to people?

Insightful. 😕

I hope she was accompanied by a male relative.

Having a bag on your head makes it harder to speak to people?

[quote=ScottChegg ]Having a bag on your head makes it harder to speak to people?
Insightful.

Did you watch the programme (I'm sure it's on iplayer)? There was a bit more to it than that, and in any case interesting to see the effects directly.

It actually does becasue you don't get the other facial expressions when speaking to the person

You could say pretty much the same about Anne Robinson's botox

I did watch it. A sasquatch above says to try and challenge my earlier post, it's obvious that without the facial expression a lot of communication is lost.

I'm not sure that's worth an hours tv when it's so self-evident.

It's the reason it's worn which is more of a challenge. That would take much more than an hour to debate, and I'm not sure Ms. Robinson would be the best chair.

You could say pretty much the same about Anne Robinson's botox

I suppose niqabs and botox say a lot about how we expect women to appear in different societies and cultures

The difference is I'm sure most westerners would agree botox is ****ing ridiculous!

It actually does becasue you don't get the other facial expressions when speaking to the person. It makes it a far more intense experience as concentration levels are higher and as a result better as you have to listen

Whatever the reason or the type of garment, as someone who spends a fair amount of time lip reading to compensate for being partially deaf I really struggle when I can't see a persons mouth, event to the point where some people who have a habit of covering their mouth with their hand while talking, I have to ask them to repeat or move their hand.

No comment on the show as I only caught about 30 seconds of it but the communication difficulties are real, and not just for people like me, there's a lot of 'meta' information that comes from the face while talking.

It's a tool to subjugate women that may or may not have a basis in a medieval fairy tale.

You could say pretty much the same about Anne Robinson's botox

I misread botox for something else then.

I did watch it. A sasquatch above says to try and challenge my earlier post, it's obvious that without the facial expression a lot of communication is lost.

I'm sure my blind colleague will be devatated to hear that

It's a tool to subjugate women

that may or may not have a basis in a medieval fairy tale

A woman who looked a little bit like Anne Robinson used to present a programme called the weakest link. I wonder what happened to her?

agree with jimjam.

I misread botox for something else then.

lets draw a veil over that

I certainly found it difficult to communicate with the niqab wearing car driver who nearly knocked me off my bike this week.

Having reflected on it, I assumed she had seen me but if I'd been able to see her face it would have been more obvious whether she was looking at me or something else - generally you seem some other facial movement when eye contact is made.

Only being able to see the eyes actually gives away very little. I'd hate to be partially sighted -it's bad enough trying to use roads when drivers are looking at their phones but when you can't even tell if a driver is looking at you / and or has their peripheral vision completely obscured by fabric the risks to vulnerable road users can only be higher.

Having a bag on your head makes it harder to speak to people?

insightful

It's just a piece of cloth. Given the lip reading exception, I think mostly the issue is not with the person wearing the headgear.

Did you watch the programme (I'm sure it's on iplayer)?

I might if I knew what it was called.

It's just a piece of cloth. Given the lip reading exception, I think mostly the issue is not with the person wearing the headgear.

[quote=DrJ ]Did you watch the programme (I'm sure it's on iplayer)?
I might if I knew what it was called.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/search?q=anne%20robinson

Mostly the misogynist making her wear it.

captainsasquatch

I wonder whether other cultures see us as misogynistic becuase of the pressure girls are put under to look a certain way and the damage they do to their bodies.
Just sayin', like.

In which culture do you feel women have the most freedom? A culture where they are free to chose what to wear, what to say, what to think, what to do, to drive, to vote, to believe in god, to believe in god, to get an education, pursue a career.....

Or a culture where they wear a sack.

I'm not sure which one I'd go for, if I'm honest and had to choose. But I'd probably go for:
Option 1: The culture that I was brought up as the other one I know less about and therefore it scares me.

Option 2: The one that doesn't physically do harm to the women.

It's a difficult one.

You've got to love a good false dichotomy 🙂

Thats a very different type of bag to have on her head.

it did seem to make interaction rather difficult.

n which culture do you feel women have the most freedom?

I wonder whether other cultures see us as misogynistic becuase of the pressure girls are put under to look a certain way and the damage they do to their bodies.

Can we please stop pretending that every woman who is wearing one was made to do it by a man. Given you are arguing about respect its an incredibly disrespectful to the women to say this. Its also absurd to say no man can tell you what to wear so I am going to tell you what you can wear.

Mostly the misogynist making her wear it.

Still I forget how many Burka wearers the average STW er knows and how extensive their personal knowledge s on this topic

All that is one reason why I though the segment was interesting, because she got to talk to the woman wearing the niqab. But I'm guessing most people on here haven't watched it (I'm not even convinced by those claiming they have)

Junkyard

the only women i know who wear it do it from choice. In one case the husband hates it as [non muslim]folk think he made her wear it.

Still I forget how many Burka wearers the average STW er knows and how extensive their personal knowledge s on this topic

I forgot about the forum rule stating that you must have a personal connection to an issue before being allowed to express an opinion. I think that needs tighter moderation. Anyway, I can't help but wonder what's more representative of the real world - the millions of women who live in Islamic societies where state law requires them to wear traditional islamic attire (lest they be lashed or imprisoned or worse)....or indeed in the three women Junkyard knows in the UK where they actually have the freedom to choose.

Even though law here allows us to wear what we want, the fact honour killings by brothers or fathers still happen when daughters go against their family traditions should give insight into just how strongly some women are controlled.

Can we please stop pretending that every woman who is wearing one was made to do it by a man. Given you are arguing about respect its an incredibly disrespectful to the women to say this. Its also absurd to say no man can tell you what to wear so I am going to tell you what you can wear.

The UN's gender inequality study indicates that 3 of 4 worst, countries a women can live in terms of equal rights are muslim majority countries where the law dictates how they dress. So it is a fact that these women are being told how to dress by men. Even in countries like ****stan where there are no laws officially enforcing the wearing of traditional garb the repercussions for women who deviate is death. Google Fauzia Azeem who was strangled by her brother for having the cheek to declare herself a feminist and pose fully clothed on instagram.

It's laughable and completely wrong headed to it's disrespectful to women to be against the wearing of the niqab. We can see from archive photos of Cairo, Tehran, Kabul and many other cities in the fifties, sixties and seventies that western dress was commonplace. But as those societies have become increasingly islamified women is western clothing has all but disappeared. In other words, when they had the freedom to choose, many women wore normal clothes.

It is not racist or offensive to be objectively critical of societies which routinely oppress, subjugate and murder atheists, homosexuals or transgender individuals because of medieval superstition and dogma. Similarly it's not offensive, sexist or racist to be critical of societies where women are second class citizens.

I forgot about the forum rule stating that you must have a personal connection to an issue before being allowed to express an opinion. I think that needs tighter moderation. Anyway, I can't help but wonder what's more representative of the real world - the millions of women who live in Islamic societies where state law requires them to wear traditional islamic attire (lest they be lashed or imprisoned or worse)....or indeed in the three women Junkyard knows in the UK where they actually have the freedom to choose.

In the context of people in the UK, a secular society where people have the freedom to practice and express their religion - and in the context of this thread - the latter carries a lot of weight. If someone here chooses that form of dress its their choice and they're free to do so.

Are you suggesting that they can't make free choices here because of the actions of an oppressive regime elsewhere? As a form of dress it existed long before the regimes you're referring to.

Oppresive regimes and islamist terrorists are cherry-picking all sorts of aspect of muslim identity from all over the world and declaring them their own - which they've no right or authority to do. They're just grabbing at anything in cycle of dogmatic one-upmanship. I don't really see how agreeing with these people and telling the rest of the muslim world to hand over the tappings of their identify - 'otherwise you're just one of them' - helps anyone

I think Anne has that affect on most people

But you are making a joke to sidestep a practical question, something you go on to criticise others for.

but lets not pretend there is no pressure on women to conform to a certain ideal

So that makes them equivalents?

Can we please stop pretending that every woman who is wearing one was made to do it by a man

I suppose thats the same as saying that some women choose FGM of their own accord. There may be some that do but do you think that is a significant number? or even comparable to those that do it under pressure from men?

Given you are arguing about respect its an incredibly disrespectful to the women to say this

This viewpoint certainly plays into the hands of feminists, largely silent on this matter, well done 🙂

the only women i know who wear it do it from choice. In one case the husband hates it as [non muslim]folk think he made her wear it.

There certainly seems no end to the "minorities" you claim to be friends with so of course you do 🙄

maccruiskeen -

In the context of people in the UK, a secular society where people have the freedom to practice and express their religion - and in the context of this thread - the latter carries a lot of weight. If someone here chooses that form of dress its their choice and they're free to do so.

Are you suggesting that they can't make free choices here because of the actions of an oppressive regime elsewhere? As a form of dress it existed long before the regimes you're referring to.

I'm not suggesting they aren't free to make choices here but it's foolish and counter productive to pretend there won't be repercussions for many women should they decide to reject this form of religious dress. If your entire family background and culture expects or insists on a certain behaviour it may be difficult or even dangerous to deviate.

Are you suggesting that they can't make free choices here because of the actions of an oppressive regime elsewhere?

Have you read the post above yours?

Does this help surfer?

[quote=Junkyard ]

it did seem to make interaction rather difficult.

😆

Can I just add, for anyone thinking of watching the Anne Robinson thing to gain some context - don't bother.

Does this help surfer?

No, what are you talking about?

In which culture do you feel women have the most freedom? A culture where they are free to chose what to wear, what to say, what to think, what to do, to drive, to vote, to believe in god, to believe in god, to get an education, pursue a career.....

Or a culture where they wear a sack

i guess it would not be the culture where people raise questions about what women choose to wear and suggest that because they do not dress in the way which conforms to the norms of that culture, they therefore do not have any agency and are not able to make choices.

i guess it would not be the culture where people raise questions about what women choose to wear and suggest that because they do not dress in the way which conforms to the norms of that culture, they therefore do not have any agency and are not able to make choices.

If women have agency can anyone tell me what all the huff was about with the beach body underground posters, that Sadiq Khan banned for [s]modesty reasons to appease his core voters[/s] 😀 totally feminist reasons.

Similarly it's not offensive, sexist or racist to be critical of societies where women are second class citizens.

True, but it is a bit dim to use clothing as a metric of second-classness. In my detailed study (sample size approx 2*) women in Oman wear all that black stuff because they want to, despite the protestations of their male friends and family.

*this is STW - normal standards don't apply.

If women have agency can anyone tell me what all the huff was about with the beach body underground posters,

No, but they certainly brightened up my commute 🙂

Yeah I mean, what an arsehole. Who doesn't want to see sexy people on beautiful beaches when surrounded by mouth breathing sewer dwellers?

Yeah but guuuuuuuuyz don't you get it, the veil is about feminist modesty - it's about choosing not be like all these poor poor white sluts who fall prey to decadent western capitalism. You see they are godless sluts with no agency, but me - I have made a choice you guyyyyzzz. Respect me guyyyyz.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/video/2015/jun/24/hijab-not-oppression-feminist-statement-video

I'm going to hell, aren't I?

In which culture do you feel women have the most freedom? A culture where they are free to chose what to wear, what to say, what to think, what to do...

You have to pity women who live in a culture were they are told what to wear by men.

[img] [/img]

Barbaric!

Can we agree that boths sides of the argument are usually put forward by utter cretins - and that it's sad that either side are arguing over who forces who to wear what. Both groups literally argue from a different side of the same bloody coin and both sides views are driven by prejudice.

I'm reminded of the Catcher in the Rye quote;

"Anyway, I'm sort of glad they've got the atomic bomb invented. If there's ever another war, I'm going to sit right the hell on top of it. I'll volunteer for it, I swear to God I will."

That's how I feel about this argument.

I forgot about the forum rule stating that you must have a personal connection to an issue before being allowed to express an opinion. I think that needs tighter moderation.

Like the Burkha you can argue its[not being able to wear skirts] oppression and lack of freedom or choice and culture as you see fit
I just tire of those who only see the muslamics as the ones being oppressed

Even though law here allows us to wear what we want, the fact honour killings by brothers or fathers still happen when daughters go against their family traditions should give insight into just how strongly some women are controlled.

It's laughable and completely wrong headed to it's disrespectful to women to be against the wearing of the niqab.

Can we please stop pretending that every woman who is wearing one was made to do it by a man. Given you are arguing about respect its an incredibly disrespectful to the women to say this. Its also absurd to say no man can tell you what to wear so I am going to tell you what you can wear.

PersonallY i dont like it but personally what a woman wears is none of my business

It is not racist or offensive to be objectively critical of societies which routinely oppress, subjugate and murder atheists, homosexuals or transgender individuals because of medieval superstition and dogma. Similarly it's not offensive, sexist or racist to be critical of societies where women are second class citizens.

In the west you dont see men wearing skirts

You do when it's culturally appropriate.

[img] [/img]

Lack of freedom? (said in a Braveheart sort of way?)

More like most blokes don't have the knees for it.

Now you agree its wrong for Muslims to tell women what to wear all I need now is for you to agree it wrong for us to do it as well

Indeed it is. Some women like covering themselves, no doubt. Some don't have the choice. How can you tell who is who?

In the west you dont see men wearing skirts- its largely because society would judge you in a certain way if you did. Do you view yourself as conditioned and oppressed by society for this or do you not actually care and just wear trousers?

EDIT:

I forgot about the forum rule stating that you must have a personal connection to an issue before being allowed to express an opinion.